220 réponses à ce sujet

[Helios969]

Straight from wiki:

A plot hole, or plothole, is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot, or constitutes a blatant omission of relevant information regarding the plot. These include such things as unlikely behaviour or actions of characters, illogical or impossible events, events happening for no apparent reason, or statements/events that contradict earlier events in the storyline.

I would say the ending qualifies.

[KDD-0063]

So why didn't those games receive the same treatment from the fans anyways?

[MstrJedi Kyle]

o Ventus wrote...

And if Wrex survives Virmire, shocker, he agrees with Shepard that curing the genophage isn't the right way to go about things. It's called character development. Except here it's character assassination. Please, learn basic literature.

Wrex just agrees that Saren curing the genophage for his purposes are bad. He's not against curing it, he's against Saren doing it

[o Ventus]

DarthKilby wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

And if Wrex survives Virmire, shocker, he agrees with Shepard that curing the genophage isn't the right way to go about things. It's called character development. Except here it's character assassination. Please, learn basic literature.

Wrex just agrees that Saren curing the genophage for his purposes are bad. He's not against curing it, he's against Saren doing it

read the rest of my posts before replying.

Kthx.

[1337haxwtg]

Nobody likes my jokes. Sadface.

[o Ventus]

1337haxwtg wrote...

Nobody likes my jokes. Sadface.

That was a joke?

It looked more like one of my calls to Cthulhu.

Har har, then?

[thesnake777]

1337haxwtg wrote...

Nobody likes my jokes. Sadface.

Sorry dude I was busy Channeling the Dark side. 

[1337haxwtg]

Har har indeed. We need to lighten up a bit around here. So srs.

[clarkusdarkus]

Jokes on them really as the EC will determine whether i purchase anything bioware related again so there big announcement at comic-con will be irrelevant. KOTOR/ME1/JE/DA......for all there good experiances there will always be bad......KOTOR2/ME3/DA2/TOR........ironic really as its sequels that let the series down when in theory there suppose to improve.

[Cadeym]

1337haxwtg wrote...

Nobody likes my jokes. Sadface.

For it to be a joke, it has to be interpreted the right way... over the internet it is highly unlikely to be done without the right hints.

[thesnake777]

clarkusdarkus wrote...

Jokes on them really as the EC will determine whether i purchase anything bioware related again so there big announcement at comic-con will be irrelevant. KOTOR/ME1/JE/DA......for all there good experiances there will always be bad......KOTOR2/ME3/DA2/TOR........ironic really as its sequels that let the series down when in theory there suppose to improve.

Kotor 2 could have been much more its was rushed by lucas arts..also Bioware dident handle that one, it was obsidian(cant spell), As for TOR I had fun...I just really wanted Kotor 3.

[Peranor]

I don't think the so called plot holes is the main issue with the ending.
If the ending had been rewarding and at least somewhat consistent with the established universe and not so pretentious and dopy then people would look past the plot holes just as they have with so many other games/movies/books.

[o Ventus]

anorling wrote...


I don't think the so called plot holes is the main issue with the ending.
If the ending had been rewarding and at least somewhat consistent with the established universe and not so pretentious and dopy then people would look past the plot holes just as they have with so many other games/movies/books.

This is also a bit of the issue.

If the ending had just managed to stay consistent with the theme and tone of the rest of the series (and also didn't try to be super philosophical), I probably would have been able to overlook some of the plot hiccups in it (and by proxy, the rest of the game).

Now that I think about it, I have never had 1 plot element ruin an entire game for me prior to ME3.

[1337haxwtg]

o Ventus wrote...

anorling wrote...


I don't think the so called plot holes is the main issue with the ending.
If the ending had been rewarding and at least somewhat consistent with the established universe and not so pretentious and dopy then people would look past the plot holes just as they have with so many other games/movies/books.

This is also a bit of the issue.

If the ending had just managed to stay consistent with the theme and tone of the rest of the series (and also didn't try to be super philosophical), I probably would have been able to overlook some of the plot hiccups in it (and by proxy, the rest of the game).

Now that I think about it, I have never had 1 plot element ruin an entire game for me prior to ME3.

Hit the nail on the head, there. The issue was that the last few minutes of the game didn't feel like Mass Effect. It removed any common sense notions and ignored the fictional scientific basis the series was built on. Why do we love Mass Effect? Because we can feel it (emotional attachments to characters and events, and, hell, even the gorram ship) and know it (explanations for biotics and technology, galactic politics). You do neither with the ending we have.

Modifié par 1337haxwtg, 23 juin 2012 - 11:31 .

[en2ym3]

I can understand your frustration with fanbase reaction/some arguments and claims that have been made. That said (horrible phrase, I know):

txgoldrush wrote...

The PROBLEM is the very notion that Bioware could do no wrong back then and everything is classic. No, they have done plenety wrong an dreally the plot formulas were recycled over and over and so was their character archtypes

Some may be like this, but I don't think many actually are (whether or not that's apparent in what they write on the forums and such).  Most people, I think, would recgonize there are flaws, or that there could be more to a game, even when they like it (this includes Bioware's classics/older games).  

The big difference is whether or not the flaws are bad enough to be a problem, and (if they are) how much it hurts the experience for the player or how much it hurts the game's quality.  

I want to add, on a side note, that "Tropes are Not Bad."  As much as people complain about how tired the (twist) ending to 3 is, I would argue that the cliches, archtypes, etc. are completely fine - so long as they're dealt with well. 3's use of them was terrible to the point of abuse. ;p

Or the notion that Bioware can no longer do right....because they are under EA and EA is evil and I supposed to hate them or I am not a good fan.

If people have actually treated you as a bad fan for holding little or no hate for EA (you're not just trying to make a point), I promise I'll draw you up a virtual cookie or something as my apology for the poor treatment from the community.  That's awful and unfair.  I'm always saddened by the moments where fans attack each other in otherwise very civil and pleasant (albeit snarky/grim) discussions.  

There are people who probably believe that, but the general impression/attitude I've gotten from my reading of several people's comments isn't that Bioware can no longer do right (in that they can't do anything right anymore) under EA, but that they're slowing slipping in the wrong direction.

For me, a conclusive opinion of this will probably wait until I see Bioware's next RPG, but there are arguably valid points for this claim.  At least if you think doing "right" involves sticking to a more RPG-focused game.  Dragon Age 2 was rushed out unfinished with notable flaws - from what I've heard/read by people - while ME2 and ME3 felt like they took certain actions to make the game more accessible to the average person (opposed to just sci-fi RPers).  

And even though I'm not completely convinced that Bioware is on (some form of a) decline, I have a bad feeling they may be.  Knowles nicely, politely explained that the reason he left Bioware was that it was going in a new direction that he disagreed with.  That, and some other things that I read from him, certainly pushed me to believe the claims to some extent.

In fact under EA, Bioware has had far more riskier storytelling, far better character developement, far better focus on the importance to make the characters more human, hell the dialogues gotten far better.

Ughhhhh.
Oh dear God, that line burns my soul.

I disagree greatly, especially on that - blech - dialogue bit.  The way they handled dialogue in Mass Effect 3 was unacceptably bad and uninvolved.  1 and 2 were done very well, but no, not 3.  You may just be stating on the core quality of the writing itself (which I would have to look at more to agree or disagree), but I count "dialogue" as including the "dialogue tree" and conversations and such.  Which, funny enough, Mass Effect 3 does not include (much).

I'm partially being silly, here, but I don't think Bioware has made some massive improvement in writing since they went under EA - and EA hasn't been known for being amazing writers or for making edgy games, so I don't know how it would have anyhow.

I've only played the Mass Effect series and Dragon Age: Origins, so I wouldn't be able to say anything about the older games, but on what I feel I can give an opinion on:
-Better character development.  Eh, maybe?  Dragon Age and Mass Effect did a good job, Mass Effect 2 almost definitely did better than 1, 3 had nearly none.  Any that there was (if there was any) didn't involve you, however, and was very off to the side.

-Focus on Characters:  Pretty much what I said about the character development, since they're roughly the same type of issue.  You can't focus on bringing the humanity (figuratively) out of a character if you don't focus on them enough to begin with (ME3).

-Dialogue: This is why, for 3, the other two aspects mentioned are a problem.  You could argue that the voiced-over dialogue (with generally two options that are placed in a category of what kind of person you are) is worse than when they merely had lines (that weren't grouped into anything) that you would pick (DA: O).  However, I've loved the dialogue up until the last Mass Effect game, after which I was extremely frustrated with it.

Modifié par en2ym3, 23 juin 2012 - 11:32 .

[Subguy614]

Ah, txtrollrush is back.

Welcome back. Ugh.

[string3r]

There's no point trying to argue with the OP. He is quite possibly the biggest ME3 fanboy of all time, as shown in this thread and on other forums.

[Cadeym]

string3r wrote...

There's no point trying to argue with the OP. He is quite possibly the biggest ME3 fanboy of all time, as shown in this thread and on other forums.

There is nothing wrong with being a "fanboy" aslong as everyone provides resonable explanations for their arguments. I am probably an even bigger "fanboy" than the OP. Which is why I am so unresonably harsh and nitpicky about the ending. I do however greatly enjoy attempting to explain why I think differently than he does... for the most part that is.

Modifié par Mouseraider, 23 juin 2012 - 11:56 .

[o Ventus]

Mouseraider wrote...

string3r wrote...

There's no point trying to argue with the OP. He is quite possibly the biggest ME3 fanboy of all time, as shown in this thread and on other forums.

There is nothing wrong with being a "fanboy" aslong as everyone provides resonable explanations for their arguments. I am probably an even bigger "fanboy" than the OP. Which is why I am so unresonably harsh and nitpicky about the ending. I do however greatly enjoy attempting to explain why I think differently than he does... for the most part that is.

There's a line between "fanboy" and "sycophant".

The OP leans more towards the latter.

[txgoldrush]

string3r wrote...

There's no point trying to argue with the OP. He is quite possibly the biggest ME3 fanboy of all time, as shown in this thread and on other forums.

Oh boy...I like ME3....I'm so bad......wasn't I supposed to hate the game and agree that Bioware is going downhill.....Please.

I think ME3 is the BEST in the series, and will be especially when the EC comes. Why?

Because the first game lacked character development outside of Wrex (so bad they had to develop them in between ME1 and ME2) and the second game lacked a strong plot and the characters developed in a contrived method. ME3 is the ONLY game to balance plot and character.

Yes, the ending was luckluster...we get it. At least they are addressing it.

[Liber320]

Leafs43 wrote...

You keep using the phrase "plot hole", but I don't think you know what it means.

This

[xMellowhype]

alec1898 wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

You keep using the phrase "plot hole", but I don't think you know what it means.

Yeah I stopped reading when OP said bastila turning to the dark side is a plot hole.

Seriosuly did you play KOTOR at all? Or have a knowledge of Star Wars? If you don't then it's fine but it's not a plot hole at all.

[MrDavid]

I think Bioware effed up the ending. That's not really up for interpretation. The fact that Bioware made free DLC to clarify the ending supports that.
As for their previous games, not having played any outside of Kotor, I will admit that people often overlook an older game's flaws when comparing it to something new. (Nostalgia Bias pretty much).
As for Bioware's so called decline...
the way I see it, even the best developers stumbled.
Remember when Valve came out with Left 4 Dead 2? That game pretty much went against their promises of L4D1 content. There were people who boycotted L4D2 for that reason.
It's not how you fall, it's how you get up that defines character. In 3 days, we'll see how well Bioware did.

Modifié par MrDavid, 23 juin 2012 - 06:12 .

[txgoldrush]

@en2ym3

No, Bioware are far better character and dialogue writers now. Hell, look at KOTOR and Jade Empire and you will see that the dialogue is very campy. Good for its time, but improved now.

No character development in ME3? WOW

EDI has maybe the best character development in Bioware history, where she learns what it meant to be human and learned that she was doing things because she wishes to, not because she was programmed. Javik learns that this cycles way of doing things may have been better than what his cycle did. He also develops from player choice if he touches the shard or not. Liara definitely has chracter development, especially with Javik present. So does Ashley and Kaiden, especially in romance. Cortez is another example of sinificant character development. Tali and Garrus has their character development from ME2 confirmed.

Wrrong again, ME3 does focus on its characters....I wonder why some main missions require you to use a certain character. Maybe because the game wants to focus on that character. One major ending weakness is because it doesn't focus on the characters.