220 réponses à ce sujet

[txgoldrush]

xMellowhype wrote...

alec1898 wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

You keep using the phrase "plot hole", but I don't think you know what it means.

Yeah I stopped reading when OP said bastila turning to the dark side is a plot hole.

Seriosuly did you play KOTOR at all? Or have a knowledge of Star Wars? If you don't then it's fine but it's not a plot hole at all.

Yes I played KOTOR....Bastila's turn was contrived as hell at best and plot hole at worst. Look at many of the other fallen Jedi, they had far worse flaws than Bastila and had far more developed falls into darkness.

[Ryzaki]

alec1898 wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

You keep using the phrase "plot hole", but I don't think you know what it means.

Yeah I stopped reading when OP said bastila turning to the dark side is a plot hole.

Same.

Bastila's DS turn started far before Malak captured her. It started as soon as she met Revan. It's a bit tricker to explain with a LS Revan but with a DS Revan? Ridculously easy to explain.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 23 juin 2012 - 06:20 .

[RedTail F22]

Well there is obviously a difference in the problems of those "classics" and ME3's problems because none of the old games caused such a backlash as ME3 did.

I think most people are intelligent enough to understand that games usually have problems and sometimes they can hurt our expectations. But when those problems start interfering with those expectations too much and end up diminishing the series then fans should be upset. And that's what I feel happened with ME3.

[Psile_01]

As has been said, plot holes are only part of the problem with the ending. The lack of variety in the endings and jarring, out of place dialogue make it a bad ending. The complete deviation from the themes of the game make it a bad ending. The plot holes are just stink icing on a cake
already made if crap.

[txgoldrush]

Ryzaki wrote...

alec1898 wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

You keep using the phrase "plot hole", but I don't think you know what it means.

Yeah I stopped reading when OP said bastila turning to the dark side is a plot hole.

Same.

Bastila's DS turn started far before Malak captured her. It started as soon as she met Revan. It's a bit tricker to explain with a LS Revan but with a DS Revan? Ridculously easy to explain.

No.......she is still firmly light sided when she meets Revan and encourages him to stay on the light side. Yes, she has flaws, but while she has flaws, she was still firmly committed to doing good. She just struggles in how she does it and disagrees with the Jedi Order on many issues.

Anakin on the other hand actually abandons the light many times before his fall. Many of the other fallen Jedi were ends justify the means characters before their fall.

[txgoldrush]

RedTail F22 wrote...

Well there is obviously a difference in the problems of those "classics" and ME3's problems because none of the old games caused such a backlash as ME3 did.

I think most people are intelligent enough to understand that games usually have problems and sometimes they can hurt our expectations. But when those problems start interfering with those expectations too much and end up diminishing the series then fans should be upset. And that's what I feel happened with ME3.

And its because of the notion that Bioware can do no wrong back in those days....its the fans mindset plain and simple....you can't deny this.

Now fans want an excuse to bash Bioware for any little thing they did wrong.

The deck was stacked against ME3 long before its release.

[txgoldrush]

Psile_01 wrote...

As has been said, plot holes are only part of the problem with the ending. The lack of variety in the endings and jarring, out of place dialogue make it a bad ending. The complete deviation from the themes of the game make it a bad ending. The plot holes are just stink icing on a cake
already made if crap.

The MAIN problem with the ending is that it was far to ambigious for its own good . This one problem I just listed causes more problems throughout the ending. Almost every problem with the ending was because of this.

Also, the endings didn't vary enough.

This is what the Extended Cut is supposed to fix....it supposed to clarify what is going on and show the consquences of all your choices.

However, really the ending to ME3 though never deviates from its main theme...sacrifice.

[JohnCena94]

txgoldrush wrote...

alec1898 wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

You keep using the phrase "plot hole", but I don't think you know what it means.

Yeah I stopped reading when OP said bastila turning to the dark side is a plot hole.

It is....simply put.

Bastila would easily been tortured to death or given herself to the force in that situation. While she did have some inner conlfict before her turn, the way that its presented, she would never have turned dark side in that manner.

Revan, Anakin, and Jacen Solo turns were far better done.

I disagree only because you can turn her back, and that she talks about how she is weak when it comes to such things, plus as a male you can romance her which goes against the light, or at least the jedi.

[thesnake777]

txgoldrush wrote...


Yes I played KOTOR....Bastila's turn was contrived as hell at best and plot hole at worst. Look at many of the other fallen Jedi, they had far worse flaws than Bastila and had far more developed falls into darkness.

I tihnk that you just liked bastila and dident want her to fall.  Are you a Dirty Jedi? be honest.

As I pointed out in some post here somewhere Bastila had alot of flaws. She was Arrogant, She could not control her emotion(rage agisnt her mother), She was egocentric at points, also as pointed out multiple times if revan is a guy she wants him....these are flaws no?  There are plenty of things that pointed she would drop the Jedi BS and come over to the Dark Side. Even if the influence of a Light side revan....

[Ryzaki]

txgoldrush wrote...
No.......she is still firmly light sided when she meets Revan and encourages him to stay on the light side. Yes, she has flaws, but while she has flaws, she was still firmly committed to doing good. She just struggles in how she does it and disagrees with the Jedi Order on many issues.

Anakin on the other hand actually abandons the light many times before his fall. Many of the other fallen Jedi were ends justify the means characters before their fall.

My mother used to tell me not to smoke while liting a cigarette. Plenty of people can tell people not to do X while they're doing it.

Struggles and flaws being the point. She was falling to the DS bit by bit. She was being disillusioned by the Jedi Order as well. She's brash and tempermental extremely arrogant, she has no problems doing childish pranks or being vindictive. It's small things like tripping Mission but shows that she lacks complete control over her emotions and small seeds for the DS to seep in.

Malak's torture and the showing of her own helplessness in the face of his power just tipped the pot completely over. Her bond with Revan had her being influenced by him/her as well so clearly if she notices a DS Revan doing all these DS things and getting aftershocks from the bond it influences her. With a LS Revan she could simply see alot of his/her LS actions as wasting time and deviating from the mission. She doesn't have to be cackling and torturing puppies to be falling to the DS.

And when she finally *does* fall to the DS what does she do? She tries to get Revan to be her master. If Revan doesn't go for it she goes for Malak. She doesn't attempt to get the power for herself. She's a follower not a leader and she's used to being used. Jedi, Sith her torture probably made it so it didn't matter which side used her since in the end she was going to be used anyway. A LS Revan at least snaps her out of this.

Ugh it's been a while since I played KOTOR. I probably could make my points better if I'd played it recently.

I'm not overly into Star Wars so I'll take your word for it.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 23 juin 2012 - 07:24 .

[thesnake777]

@Ryzaki
You get extra credit for cackling and torturing puppies with the Sith!!

[Ryzaki]

thesnake777 wrote...

@Ryzaki
You get extra credit for cackling and torturing puppies with the Sith!!

That mission when you trick the student with the fake sword and he gets pwn'd by the Master will never fail to make me laugh.

The only thing more hilarious then that is poisoning both the Sith Masters and playing them against each other. Revan's reason you suck speech was epic.

[El Mito]

OP does not understand what plot holes mean.

[JPN17]

Way to generalize OP, but all games have some issues. There's no perfect game. I don't have a problem at all with some inconsistencies, that's gonna happen. Oftentimes, they are easily overlooked. What I do have a problem with is a company lying about what their game is and also a company that creates a sequel that destroys the game(s) that preceded it. That's something that never happened with NWN or BG and it is also why I hate TOR.

Also complaining about some games while not complaining about others is not hypocritical. Denouncing people who have an affair publicly, while secretly having an affair yourself is an example of being hypocritical.

Modifié par JPN17, 23 juin 2012 - 07:53 .

[txgoldrush]

thesnake777 wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...


Yes I played KOTOR....Bastila's turn was contrived as hell at best and plot hole at worst. Look at many of the other fallen Jedi, they had far worse flaws than Bastila and had far more developed falls into darkness.

I tihnk that you just liked bastila and dident want her to fall.  Are you a Dirty Jedi? be honest.

As I pointed out in some post here somewhere Bastila had alot of flaws. She was Arrogant, She could not control her emotion(rage agisnt her mother), She was egocentric at points, also as pointed out multiple times if revan is a guy she wants him....these are flaws no?  There are plenty of things that pointed she would drop the Jedi BS and come over to the Dark Side. Even if the influence of a Light side revan....

Wrong.....

Yes she is ego centric, but that doesn't mean she will fall to the dark side....there is no way she would completely and quickly abandon were ways of the light and turn 180 to the Sith. Even if it wasn't a plot hole, its still very contrived.

Yes she was flawed, but she was committed to doing good and following the light, in the way she thinks was right.

This is NOT the case for Revan, Vader, Cadeus, and others who clearly showed dark sided philosphy or actions before the fall.

[txgoldrush]

El Mito wrote...

OP does not understand what plot holes mean.

No, BSN posters don't

Plot holes have to be proven, not speculated.

[GreyLycanTrope]

Holy hell I'm not even sure where to start pointing out what's wrong with statements in the OP. I'm going to be a brief as possible.

Bastila going Darkside is not a plot hole, she had flaws that were exploited when Malak tortured her. She was a bit arrogant and had anger issues. It also didn't come completely out of nowhere, it was mentioned in game that the Sith were corrupting Jedi they didn't kill, Malak even states this is exactly what he's doing to Bastila. It is explained and doesn't go against he establish logic, narrative cohesion is not broken.

One of the themes explored in Jade Empire was that of destiny and being in your place an in balance with the world etc. The water dragon relies on even a closed-fist spirit monk to fulfill their roll because that was their destiny. The water dragon was always a proponent of people fulfilling their designed role. The spirit monk's role was to stop the Emperor, get betrayed by Li, and then stop Li. Even a closed-fist spirt monk still accomplishes this. Also last of the spirit monks so she really can't rely on anyone else, beggers can't be choosers. The let's go to Dirge bit while contrived still made sense, Dawnstar was established early on to have the ability to see spirits. So yeah you can still follow the thought progression there.

See in ME3 we have a synthetics vs organics that establishes that robots and meatbags can't get along and yes it did occur in ME1, but our interaction with Legion and EDI throughout ME2 ME3 and the mission on Rannoch showed another side to the theme and established that coexistance i just as likely as conflict. Yet at the end we are told that conflict is inevitable, this goes against the previously established logic and is a plot hole.

Joker running away was the worst offender. It's been established time and time again by Shepard, Hackett and the rest of the crew that the battle for earth is the last battle and we either win or die trying. And at the end without explanation or reason we see not only Joker but our squadmates fleeing the system. How does that follow the established logic?

I don't call things plot holes because I don't like them, I don't like them because they're plot holes

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 23 juin 2012 - 08:13 .

[Ryzaki]

txgoldrush wrote...

Wrong.....

Yes she is ego centric, but that doesn't mean she will fall to the dark side....there is no way she would completely and quickly abandon were ways of the light and turn 180 to the Sith. Even if it wasn't a plot hole, its still very contrived.

Yes she was flawed, but she was committed to doing good and following the light, in the way she thinks was right.

This is NOT the case for Revan, Vader, Cadeus, and others who clearly showed dark sided philosphy or actions before the fall.

Wat.

The whole POINT of Revan and Malak's fall is that they fell trying to do the right thing! (I.E. Protecting the galaxy and saving lives by ending the war quickly) In a horrible way but they were trying to fulfill the greater good. It blew up in their faces and they fell to the darkside. As for following the light again I point you to Bastila's questioning of the Jedi Order.  Slowly but surely she was losing faith in them. Comitted to doing good and following the Jedi Code are not the same thing. No matter how many Jedi preach that it is.

It did not help that they sat on their hands while worlds were destroyed.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 23 juin 2012 - 08:07 .

[covertdrizzt]

Comparing the minor flaws in KOTOR and DOA with the train wreck at the end of ME3= EPIC FAIL

[spirosz]

Leafs43 wrote...

You keep using the phrase "plot hole", but I don't think you know what it means.

[VoodooDrackus]

txgoldrush wrote...

alec1898 wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

You keep using the phrase "plot hole", but I don't think you know what it means.

Yeah I stopped reading when OP said bastila turning to the dark side is a plot hole.

It is....simply put.

Bastila would easily been tortured to death or given herself to the force in that situation. While she did have some inner conlfict before her turn, the way that its presented, she would never have turned dark side in that manner.

Revan, Anakin, and Jacen Solo turns were far better done.

I agree with your criticism of the biggest critics of Bioware. Even though I can see where you are coming from by bringing up Biowares previous games, some of the story could have been fleshed out a little more in places for sure, I don't attribute the "plot hole" moniker for the lack of exposition in the stories.

Now then, what you said about it not making any sense for Bastila to go to the dark side is where I felt the need to jump in since I played all the way through KOTOR recently. If you have her in your party when you are questing you can see how some of what she says are signs that given the right amount of torture she can be turned. Even talking to her on the ship you can get a sense that her way of thinking isn't pure light side. Another thing is you see there is a lot of anger and hate in her when you do her side quest. And as we all know, hate leads to suffering which is attributed to the dark side. 

Don't get me wrong I felt betrayed when she turned to the dark side since I spent so much time with her and lead by example, but she would always talk about how I was better than her, that she wouldn't have done something I did that was obviously a light side choice. So when she turned I was not surprised, nor was a I surprised that I was able to talk her back to the light side (well in the playthrough where I had the light side maxed).

You see, what I think the main issue that I am seeing with this controversy is that most don't pay attention to the story, don't take the time to flesh it out by exploring dialogue,etc (sometimes that requires multiple playthroughs, but with a game that has so many different options, that is what is needed). It can be argued that a player shouldn't have to, but if you are really involved in the story, then you should be motivated to find out more about the rich environment that Bioware has set up for you. Bioware is very good at doing that in my opinion.

The moral of my story is that if you think it's a "plot hole" then you may have missed a crucial piece in the narrative, via a log, a dialogue option, a character in your party, etc. (and it could be that another playthrough will make that so called "plot hole" merely be a place in the story you skipped over by no fault of your own.)

[Taboo]

Ha, the jokes on you. I hated the endings because of the ****ty execution. I can DEAL with the flaws because nothing is perfect.

Don't group me in with the others please.

[spirosz]

alec1898 wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

You keep using the phrase "plot hole", but I don't think you know what it means.

Yeah I stopped reading when OP said bastila turning to the dark side is a plot hole.

This too.  She was struggling throughout the whole game to be true to the "light side perspective", you can tell this because of her outbursts, questioning herself and Revan and her fall during Malak's tortue.  She can (key word) be turned back, if the player chooses to.