220 réponses à ce sujet

[OdanUrr]

Leafs43 wrote...

You keep using the phrase "plot hole", but I don't think you know what it means.

Modifié par OdanUrr, 23 juin 2012 - 08:18 .

[thesnake777]

txgoldrush wrote...

Wrong.....

Yes she is ego centric, but that doesn't mean she will fall to the dark side....there is no way she would completely and quickly abandon were ways of the light and turn 180 to the Sith. Even if it wasn't a plot hole, its still very contrived.

Yes she was flawed, but she was committed to doing good and following the light, in the way she thinks was right.

This is NOT the case for Revan, Vader, Cadeus, and others who clearly showed dark sided philosphy or actions before the fall.

I feel like I am talking to a Jedi....

Um How do I put this.....Do you understand Revans and maleks back story during the mandiloran wars? When they supposadley "fell".  Before I even get into that, you seem to be missing the point that she doubted the Jedi code...She did things that were completely non jedi like beahavior. In fact the only reason she was allowed such a free reign awas becuase she had the battle mediation force ability, she was not ready to deal with the sith..she admits to feeling hatred and anger....Let me say that again...Hatred and Anger...what do these things led to Jedi? what do they led to? 

[thesnake777]

Ryzaki wrote...



That mission when you trick the student with the fake sword and he gets pwn'd by the Master will never fail to make me laugh.

The only thing more hilarious then that is poisoning both the Sith Masters and playing them against each other. Revan's reason you suck speech was epic.

I had forgot about those. Man being a Sith is just some much win. Alot of the darkside options in those quests just made me laugh hysterically...

[txgoldrush]

Greylycantrope wrote...

Holy hell I'm not even sure where to start pointing out what's wrong with statements in the OP. I'm going to be a brief as possible.

Bastila going Darkside is not a plot hole, she had flaws that were exploited when Malak tortured her. She was a bit arrogant and had anger issues. It also didn't come completely out of nowhere, it was mentioned in game that the Sith were corrupting Jedi they didn't kill, Malak even states this is exactly what he's doing to Bastila. It is explained and doesn't go against he establish logic, narrative cohesion is not broken.

One of the themes explored in Jade Empire was that of destiny and being in your place an in balance with the world etc. The water dragon relies on even a closed-fist spirit monk to fulfill their roll because that was their destiny. The water dragon was always a proponent of people fulfilling their designed role. The spirit monk's role was to stop the Emperor, get betrayed by Li, and then stop Li. Even a closed-fist spirt monk still accomplishes this. Also last of the spirit monks so she really can't rely on anyone else, beggers can't be choosers. The let's go to Dirge bit while contrived still made sense, Dawnstar was established early on to have the ability to see spirits. So yeah you can still follow the thought progression there.

See in ME3 we have a synthetics vs organics that establishes that robots and meatbags can't get along and yes it did occur in ME1, but our interaction with Legion and EDI throughout ME2 ME3 and the mission on Rannoch showed another side to the theme and established that coexistance i just as likely as conflict. Yet at the end we are told that conflict is inevitable, this goes against the previously established logic and is a plot hole.

Joker running away was the worst offender. It's been established time and time again by Shepard, Hackett and the rest of the crew that the battle for earth is the last battle and we either win or die trying. And at the end without explanation or reason we see not only Joker but our squadmates fleeing the system. How does that follow the established logic?

I don't call things plot holes because I don't like them, I don't like them because they're plot holes

Funny how no one brings up ME2 Overlord, where a synthetic creation turns on its creators and tries to get into the galactic network. Too inconvient in proving Bioware wrong? Never mind that villians CAN BE WRONG andc an have logic flaws. The problem is that Shepard isn't allowed to debate the Catalyst other than teh words "maybe"
.
But it is....yes, once again, Bastila has flaws and anger issues, but she is fully committed to the light side UNLIKE the other examples I just mentioned. She is in line of a Grey Jedi than a Sith drunk on the dark side like she is portrayed in KOTOR.

No, the Water Dragon is an idiot in a Closed Fist playthrough.....how can she not see that he is a betrayer of everyone and that he will betray her too, nevermind being even WORSE than the Li brothers. Nevermind that the Closed Fist practiced in game is far from consistant and far poorly executed. Oh and if destiny is so important, why than does she try to rally the good party members to kill the Spirit Monk, which would in turn go against destiny?

[Ryzaki]

@thesnake777: It's why I always play DS.

LS is really boring in KOTOR. Sure sometimes it gives warm fuzzies but most of the time *yawns*

Re Water Dragon.

She didn't really have any other choice. And sure maybe a CF spirit monk would steal her power. A CF spirit monk could also give it back. CF =/= evil. CF = stand on your own two feet. A CF character will help someone against overwhelming odds if he/she felt like it. It just depends on if your CF character felt like it. Some of mine did. Some of mine didn't. (Some just wanted the ghosts to GTFO and didn't want to be bothered doing it themselves).

Modifié par Ryzaki, 23 juin 2012 - 08:31 .

[Code_R]

Comparing a few scratches on the paintwork to a complete and total write off equals hypocrisy? Really?

[zambot]

No one here would be arguing about plot holes or endings if the ending was awesome. It could still have a ton of plot holes, but no one would care.

[txgoldrush]

thesnake777 wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Wrong.....

Yes she is ego centric, but that doesn't mean she will fall to the dark side....there is no way she would completely and quickly abandon were ways of the light and turn 180 to the Sith. Even if it wasn't a plot hole, its still very contrived.

Yes she was flawed, but she was committed to doing good and following the light, in the way she thinks was right.

This is NOT the case for Revan, Vader, Cadeus, and others who clearly showed dark sided philosphy or actions before the fall.

I feel like I am talking to a Jedi....

Um How do I put this.....Do you understand Revans and maleks back story during the mandiloran wars? When they supposadley "fell".  Before I even get into that, you seem to be missing the point that she doubted the Jedi code...She did things that were completely non jedi like beahavior. In fact the only reason she was allowed such a free reign awas becuase she had the battle mediation force ability, she was not ready to deal with the sith..she admits to feeling hatred and anger....Let me say that again...Hatred and Anger...what do these things led to Jedi? what do they led to? 

So how is doubting the Jedi Code darksided? There are grey Jedi you know. This doesn't mean her fall isn't forced.

Did Bastila kill scores like Anakin or Revan? Or did she just act in contrary of the code.

The very fact she admits hatred and anger is humilty, a light sided action. Nevermind the self sacrifice to get Revan to flee from Malak, another ultimate light sided action.

Like I said, if it isn't a plot hole, its contrived and forced to add tension to the plot.

[nazgul1x]

thesnake777 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...



That mission when you trick the student with the fake sword and he gets pwn'd by the Master will never fail to make me laugh.

The only thing more hilarious then that is poisoning both the Sith Masters and playing them against each other. Revan's reason you suck speech was epic.

I had forgot about those. Man being a Sith is just some much win. Alot of the darkside options in those quests just made me laugh hysterically...

I still play KOTOR every year or so.....I have to admit that DS is pure awesomeness! May have to fire it up soon

[txgoldrush]

Ryzaki wrote...

@thesnake777: It's why I always play DS.

LS is really boring in KOTOR. Sure sometimes it gives warm fuzzies but most of the time *yawns*

Re Water Dragon.

She didn't really have any other choice. And sure maybe a CF spirit monk would steal her power. A CF spirit monk could also give it back. CF =/= evil. CF = stand on your own two feet. A CF character will help someone against overwhelming odds if he/she felt like it. It just depends on if your CF character felt like it. Some of mine did. Some of mine didn't. (Some just wanted the ghosts to GTFO and didn't want to be bothered doing it themselves).

Her lies the problem with Jade Empire.

In theory closed fist =/= evil.

In practice forced by the game...closed fist = evil, psychopathic, treasonous SOB.

Why can't I be a good Closed Fist character, an ends justify the means Open Palm character?

And the problem is the WD doesn't even recognize the evil of the character.

[nazgul1x]

zambot wrote...

No one here would be arguing about plot holes or endings if the ending was awesome. It could still have a ton of plot holes, but no one would care.

QFT

[MattFini]

Also, the OP's argument is built on the supposition that the ending dissatisfaction stems entirely from "plot holes."

It doesn't.

Had Mass Effect 3 had a climactic sense of victory that somehow still incorporated those choices, I would've been somewhat okay with the infamous space magic.

The problem is that ME3's ending is emotionally hollow and completely unsatisfying. Part of that comes from the fact that there is no closure: the fate of the characters we've grown to love over three games is completely up in the air. We don't see the far-reaching impact of our decisions, etc.

That's one part of it.

The other being that ME3 doesn't let the player feel like they've won the game. Instead, the action comes to a screeching halt and you're forced to choose from some very vague concepts that the game suddenly insists was the point all along.

Add in the fact that BioWare was making promises they knew the game wouldn't live up to a few weeks before the release and, well, it's not hard to understand why the fans didn't take it well.

Modifié par MattFini, 23 juin 2012 - 08:48 .

[GreyLycanTrope]

txgoldrush wrote...
Funny how no one brings up ME2 Overlord, where a synthetic creation turns on its creators and tries to get into the galactic network. Too inconvient in proving Bioware wrong? Never mind that villians CAN BE WRONG andc an have logic flaws. The problem is that Shepard isn't allowed to debate the Catalyst other than teh words "maybe"

synthetic/organic hybrid not pure synthetic, one who wasn't mentally stable so not a valid example. And since you're accusing me of ignoring things that don't prove my point I like how you don't even mention the Normandy crash scene. He is wrong and he does have logic flaws but two of the esablished ending still feed into it. Synthesis for example, hell Destory kills all synthetics as far as we know.

But it is....yes, once again, Bastila has flaws and anger issues, but she is fully committed to the light side UNLIKE the other examples I just mentioned. She is in line of a Grey Jedi than a Sith drunk on the dark side like she is portrayed in KOTOR.

Because no uber light Jedi has ever gone over to the darkside, and no sith ever went to the light? Atris, Juhani, the whole Exar-kun war as mentioned in game.

No, the Water Dragon is an idiot in a Closed Fist playthrough.....how can she not see that he is a betrayer of everyone and that he will betray her too, nevermind being even WORSE than the Li brothers. Nevermind that the Closed Fist practiced in game is far from consistant and far poorly executed. Oh and if destiny is so important, why than does she try to rally the good party members to kill the Spirit Monk, which would in turn go against destiny?

Because that's when the spirit monk openly and directly defies her and tries to break from his/her assigned path/destiny. Sprit monk rejects his role Dragon tries to stop him/her simple as that.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 23 juin 2012 - 08:48 .

[Ryzaki]

txgoldrush wrote...
Her lies the problem with Jade Empire.

In theory closed fist =/= evil.

In practice forced by the game...closed fist = evil, psychopathic, treasonous SOB.

Why can't I be a good Closed Fist character, an ends justify the means Open Palm character?

And the problem is the WD doesn't even recognize the evil of the character.

In theory is what matters since that's what the logic follows. Not to mention you can be a good closed fist character and an ends justify the means Open palm character. Zu is the former and Sky the latter. Hell some of the Lotus assassins are OP.

And actually did you play a truly evil CF character? The WD DOES acknowledge it. She just hedges her bets on him because she has no other choice.

[thesnake777]

txgoldrush wrote...

So how is doubting the Jedi Code darksided? There are grey Jedi you know. This doesn't mean her fall isn't forced.

Did Bastila kill scores like Anakin or Revan? Or did she just act in contrary of the code.

The very fact she admits hatred and anger is humilty, a light sided action. Nevermind the self sacrifice to get Revan to flee from Malak, another ultimate light sided action.

Like I said, if it isn't a plot hole, its contrived and forced to add tension to the plot.

Who did Revan kill before he "fell"? Who did Anakin kill before he "fell"? for anakin if you say the sand people that is extenuating circumstance where he cryed for an hour in padmes arms afterwards....speaking of anakin and padme... did I forget to mention that love leads to the dark side as well...and bastillia wanted Revan...oh baby.

As for your light sided action of her sacrifce..she though she was tough ****. Well malek slapped her around. what can I say. Sith for the win baby.

[Ryzaki]

I totally headcanon that Malak and Revan (well my revans of either gender) were totally lovers

Makes it bitterly sad when my scarce LS Revans try one last time to get him to turn back. D:

[thesnake777]

@Ryzaki
I know man, LS is fine when dealing with your crew, but I opt to slaughter the council every time...the Jedi make me sick. Plus having HK sitting there screaming about meatbags does not help the situation.

Edit: I love the back story of Malek...he was Badass...and completly commited to Revan....Killing the enemy one mandie at a time.

Modifié par thesnake777, 23 juin 2012 - 08:58 .

[MegaSovereign]

I just finished playing ME1 again. The game feels so unpolished.

[Ryzaki]

thesnake777 wrote...

@Ryzaki
I know man, LS is fine when dealing with your crew, but I opt to slaughter the council every time...the Jedi make me sick. Plus having HK sitting there screaming about meatbags does not help the situation.

HK <3<3<3

But yeah those pretenous jerkwads makeit easy to see why people would say F this and go to the darkside. Can they be any more smug? 

Watching them die in KOTOR 2 was damned satisifying.

Plus being DS to Carth and watching him stammer is amusing. Though I do wish you could at least turn him DS. Not fair Dude Revan gets an DS LI at the end but not FemRevan. Canderous totally should've been an option!

Modifié par Ryzaki, 23 juin 2012 - 08:59 .

[thesnake777]

Ryzaki wrote...

HK <3<3<3

But yeah those pretenous jerkwads makeit easy to see why people would say F this and go to the darkside. Can they be any more smug? 

Watching them die in KOTOR 2 was damned satisifying.

It was so good. I enjoyed being the Exile in KOTOR 2. I would save a couple of them and then kill my former master and then take on the entire jedi. They would say "we knew you were evil".  I would yell "Dark Side ****" ..so much fun.

[iAFKinMassEffect3]

Everyone is missing the point.
The entire ending is a plot hole, Starchild is a plot hole as he is some all powerful citadel thing yet he couldn't even help Sovereign.

If the ending were to be awesome then this plot hole would have to be removed.

[Ryzaki]

thesnake777 wrote...
It was so good. I enjoyed being the Exile in KOTOR 2. I would save a couple of them and then kill my former master and then take on the entire jedi. They would say "we knew you were evil".  I would yell "Dark Side ****" ..so much fun.

Yes

So much fun indeed.

Atton gets all my But Disciple. I mean jeez. What a waste of a character. Even DS he's boring.

[thesnake777]

Ryzaki wrote...

Yes

So much fun indeed.

Atton gets all my But Disciple. I mean jeez. What a waste of a character. Even DS he's boring.

I was with the handmaiden myself. I flipped a **** when Atris was going to hurt her. Another jedi full of BS. 

[Headcount]

MattFini wrote...

Also, the OP's argument is built on the supposition that the ending dissatisfaction stems entirely from "plot holes."

It doesn't.

Had Mass Effect 3 had a climactic sense of victory that somehow still incorporated those choices, I would've been somewhat okay with the infamous space magic.

The problem is that ME3's ending is emotionally hollow and completely unsatisfying. Part of that comes from the fact that there is no closure: the fate of the characters we've grown to love over three games is completely up in the air. We don't see the far-reaching impact of our decisions, etc.

That's one part of it.

The other being that ME3 doesn't let the player feel like they've won the game. Instead, the action comes to a screeching halt and you're forced to choose from some very vague concepts that the game suddenly insists was the point all along.

Add in the fact that BioWare was making promises they knew the game wouldn't live up to a few weeks before the release and, well, it's not hard to understand why the fans didn't take it well.

QFT.

[Ryzaki]

thesnake777 wrote...
I was with the handmaiden myself. I flipped a **** when Atris was going to hurt her. Another jedi full of BS. 

Ugh Atris. If only you could've fought her ass when you first saw her. But nooooo plot immunity. DX