220 réponses à ce sujet

[Agamemnon2589]

OdanUrr wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

You keep using the phrase "plot hole", but I don't think you know what it means.

ROFL. This.
The OP seems to be a little confused as to why exactly ME3 was so negatively received. Yes, we were upset about the plotholes, for sure. But it wasn't so much the fact that there were little memory gaps in the story, or odd quirks that didn't quite fit with the established mythos. It was that, to us, the ending DIDN'T MAKE FRIGGIN' SENSE. At ALL. It was inconsistent, unemotional (unless you want to factor in the rage of countless angry fans), and straight-up dumb. Unfortunately, you folks that keep making threads like this seem incapable of grasping that. That's okay, though. Agree to disagree and all that.

Modifié par Agamemnon2589, 23 juin 2012 - 09:13 .

[thesnake777]

Ryzaki wrote...

Ugh Atris. If only you could've fought her ass when you first saw her. But nooooo plot immunity. DX 

I know anytime I talked to her I gained a ridiculus amount of DS points.  She was just Jealous and wanted the Exile. Thats all.

[txgoldrush]

MattFini wrote...

Also, the OP's argument is built on the supposition that the ending dissatisfaction stems entirely from "plot holes."

It doesn't.

Had Mass Effect 3 had a climactic sense of victory that somehow still incorporated those choices, I would've been somewhat okay with the infamous space magic.

The problem is that ME3's ending is emotionally hollow and completely unsatisfying. Part of that comes from the fact that there is no closure: the fate of the characters we've grown to love over three games is completely up in the air. We don't see the far-reaching impact of our decisions, etc.

That's one part of it.

The other being that ME3 doesn't let the player feel like they've won the game. Instead, the action comes to a screeching halt and you're forced to choose from some very vague concepts that the game suddenly insists was the point all along.

Add in the fact that BioWare was making promises they knew the game wouldn't live up to a few weeks before the release and, well, it's not hard to understand why the fans didn't take it well.

No...I recognize that the problem with the ending is more than just plot holes.......in fact I think the problem with the ending wasn't plot holes, the problem is that....

A) The ending was so vague everything is left to speculation, in a series where they never been very vague on things.

The ending did not effectively show the consquences of your choices or even effectively show the consquences of the final choice.

C) The Catalyst sequence was underdeveloped and the conversation lacks key details. When you introduce a last minute main antagonist, you have to flesh them out. The Starchild existing ISN'T THE PROBLEM however.

D) And since their was so much speculation and everything is so vague, there was no real closure.


However what ISN'T the problem is

A) Plot holes, they can only be speculated, not proven. The ending was so vague that you can't even prove contradictions....such as Joker fleeing, the destruction of the relays, or even the level of control of the Catalyst.

The lack of a happy ending.....which fits the theme of the game, a theme of sacrifice.

C) Even the final choice....the problem isn't that it exists, its that it wasn't fleshed out enough.

[txgoldrush]

Ryzaki wrote...

thesnake777 wrote...
I was with the handmaiden myself. I flipped a **** when Atris was going to hurt her. Another jedi full of BS. 

Ugh Atris. If only you could've fought her ass when you first saw her. But nooooo plot immunity. DX 

Atris's fall is far more beliveable than Bastila's.

[thesnake777]

txgoldrush wrote...


Atris's fall is far more beliveable than Bastila's.

oh...BS man...We barely talk to Atris while we see more evidence of Bastila's fall. 

[ArchDuck]

Leafs43 wrote...

You keep using the phrase "plot hole", but I don't think you know what it means.

[Ryzaki]

thesnake777 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Ugh Atris. If only you could've fought her ass when you first saw her. But nooooo plot immunity. DX 

I know anytime I talked to her I gained a ridiculus amount of DS points.  She was just Jealous and wanted the Exile. Thats all.

She was just jealous of my Exile. Not my Exile's fault her milkshake brought all the boys to the yard.

Seriously though ugh.

Re Atris fall Wut? You see as much of Atris "fall" as we do of Bastila's. If not much less.

[MattFini]

txgoldrush wrote...

No...I recognize that the problem with the ending is more than just plot holes.......in fact I think the problem with the ending wasn't plot holes, the problem is that....

A) The ending was so vague everything is left to speculation, in a series where they never been very vague on things.

 

Agreed.  Definitely part of it.

The ending did not effectively show the consquences of your choices or even effectively show the consquences of the final choice.

 

Agreed.

C) The Catalyst sequence was underdeveloped and the conversation lacks key details. When you introduce a last minute main antagonist, you have to flesh them out. The Starchild existing ISN'T THE PROBLEM however.

 

I don't know if I agree here.  Ramming a final antagonist into the narrative in the 11th hour is never a good idea, but it's even worse if the thing starts spouting random concepts that were never the MAIN focus of the series.  For me the StarChild existing was a huge problem because it made the game feel anticlimactic.  

If this had somehow been Harbinger, and Shepard had to defeat him in a battle of wills, it would've been acceptable since A) Harbinger was established as a major villain in the last game and actively engaging him in a battle of wills would've still given the player some degre of victory.  Hell of a lot better than the suicide march that Shep does at the end.

But even if the StarChild were to explain himself a bit more, I still feel like his inclusion at that point in the story is awkward and unnecessary. 

However what ISN'T the problem is

A) Plot holes, they can only be speculated, not proven. The ending was so vague that you can't even prove contradictions....such as Joker fleeing, the destruction of the relays, or even the level of control of the Catalyst.

 

Sure.  I can see what you mean here.  I'll reserve judgment until I see the EC before deciding on what, if anything is an actual plot hole.  In my eyes, I fully expect to see a few, but I'll be delighted if I'm wrong.

The lack of a happy ending.....which fits the theme of the game, a theme of sacrifice.

 

I don't like the fact that Shepard has to die no matter the end (unless high-EMS destory does ensure survival, who knows at this point).  Mainly because it doesn't feel organic to the story.  This is worsened by the handling of StarChild above and I think these issues are tied together for me.

If my Shep had a heroic death on his terms, I would've been fine with it (for example, I LOVED the end of DA:O, my warden died willingly).  But I still don't think it should've been the only outcome.  It just feels lazy this way when you take the rest of the series into account.

C) Even the final choice....the problem isn't that it exists, its that it wasn't fleshed out enough.

I don't believe I would ever have enjoyed those choices.  But had the game led to a climactic sense of victory and given some closure, I could've lived with them.

[txgoldrush]

thesnake777 wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...


Atris's fall is far more beliveable than Bastila's.

oh...BS man...We barely talk to Atris while we see more evidence of Bastila's fall. 

So...its still more believable and far more gradual. Her hatred of the Exile and the Sith holocrons fueld her fall.

[Code_R]

zambot wrote...

No one here would be arguing about plot holes or endings if the ending was awesome. It could still have a ton of plot holes, but no one would care.

Likely

[txgoldrush]

MattFini wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

No...I recognize that the problem with the ending is more than just plot holes.......in fact I think the problem with the ending wasn't plot holes, the problem is that....

A) The ending was so vague everything is left to speculation, in a series where they never been very vague on things.

 

Agreed.  Definitely part of it.

The ending did not effectively show the consquences of your choices or even effectively show the consquences of the final choice.

 

Agreed.

C) The Catalyst sequence was underdeveloped and the conversation lacks key details. When you introduce a last minute main antagonist, you have to flesh them out. The Starchild existing ISN'T THE PROBLEM however.

 

I don't know if I agree here.  Ramming a final antagonist into the narrative in the 11th hour is never a good idea, but it's even worse if the thing starts spouting random concepts that were never the MAIN focus of the series.  For me the StarChild existing was a huge problem because it made the game feel anticlimactic.  

If this had somehow been Harbinger, and Shepard had to defeat him in a battle of wills, it would've been acceptable since A) Harbinger was established as a major villain in the last game and actively engaging him in a battle of wills would've still given the player some degre of victory.  Hell of a lot better than the suicide march that Shep does at the end.

But even if the StarChild were to explain himself a bit more, I still feel like his inclusion at that point in the story is awkward and unnecessary. 

However what ISN'T the problem is

A) Plot holes, they can only be speculated, not proven. The ending was so vague that you can't even prove contradictions....such as Joker fleeing, the destruction of the relays, or even the level of control of the Catalyst.

 

Sure.  I can see what you mean here.  I'll reserve judgment until I see the EC before deciding on what, if anything is an actual plot hole.  In my eyes, I fully expect to see a few, but I'll be delighted if I'm wrong.

The lack of a happy ending.....which fits the theme of the game, a theme of sacrifice.

 

I don't like the fact that Shepard has to die no matter the end (unless high-EMS destory does ensure survival, who knows at this point).  Mainly because it doesn't feel organic to the story.  This is worsened by the handling of StarChild above and I think these issues are tied together for me.

If my Shep had a heroic death on his terms, I would've been fine with it (for example, I LOVED the end of DA:O, my warden died willingly).  But I still don't think it should've been the only outcome.  It just feels lazy this way when you take the rest of the series into account.

C) Even the final choice....the problem isn't that it exists, its that it wasn't fleshed out enough.

I don't believe I would ever have enjoyed those choices.  But had the game led to a climactic sense of victory and given some closure, I could've lived with them.

Enslaved did the same thing...the introduced the main antagonist in the ending, it works. The Senschel section of Dragon's Dogma is the strongest part of an otherwise weak story.

Nevermind that its a twist....the MacGuffin  sought out in the late moments of the game turns out to be the main antagonist. So really he wasn't intorduced in the last minute of the game, only the reveal that he is a character.

The game does have a victory....choose the Destroy option, Earth is cheering. However victory comes at a huge price, Shepard's life and the galactic way of life.

It is organic, sacrifice is the main theme of ME3.

[thesnake777]

txgoldrush wrote...

So...its still more believable and far more gradual. Her hatred of the Exile and the Sith holocrons fueld her fall.

No you just dont like the fact that bastilla was weak minded. That her high and might jedi code was just hiding the fact that deep down she was a flake....

[jules_vern18]

txgoldrush wrote...

alec1898 wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

You keep using the phrase "plot hole", but I don't think you know what it means.

Yeah I stopped reading when OP said bastila turning to the dark side is a plot hole.

It is....simply put.

Bastila would easily been tortured to death or given herself to the force in that situation. While she did have some inner conlfict before her turn, the way that its presented, she would never have turned dark side in that manner.

Revan, Anakin, and Jacen Solo turns were far better done.

Bastilla's pride and hubris were exploitable dark side traits.  It's not that hard to conceive.

[txgoldrush]

thesnake777 wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

So...its still more believable and far more gradual. Her hatred of the Exile and the Sith holocrons fueld her fall.

No you just dont like the fact that bastilla was weak minded. That her high and might jedi code was just hiding the fact that deep down she was a flake....

She may have been weak minded but she was good hearted.....once again compare to Vader, Cadeus, and Revan. She would never join the Sith or be drunk on the dark side like she is on Unknown Planet.

Once again, more traits of a Grey Jedi than a Sith drunk on th edark side.

[Zardoc]

What hole did you crawl out of again? I thought we got rid of people like you months ago.

[Notho]

thesnake777 wrote...

About Kotor
You know nothing of the Dark Side....I also find your lack of Faith disturbing.
Deep down she knew the sith way was the right way. Embrace it..Embrace it.

About Bioware.
There have always been minor inconsistencies in the older games. I think the big difference in the reactions was what was advertised and promised to the fans up to two weeks before launch and what was given. This may seem strange but that fact that so many people are upset about it, shows how much people love the company. *shrug*

^^ This is why I was upset. I'm done being upset since BioWare basically shoved their fingers in their ears and shouted "Artistic Vision" over and over and over again when fans started to call them out on it.

[Ryzaki]

...

Grey Jedi actually have to have more control and humility than EITHER side. I'd say it's far far more difficult to be a Grey Jedi than DS or LS. Grey Jedi have to be able to make decisions on their own and keep the careful balance between LS and DS. Where's a LS or DS Jedi can just go through life following their master's word like it's law.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 23 juin 2012 - 09:55 .

[txgoldrush]

Notho wrote...

thesnake777 wrote...

About Kotor
You know nothing of the Dark Side....I also find your lack of Faith disturbing.
Deep down she knew the sith way was the right way. Embrace it..Embrace it.

About Bioware.
There have always been minor inconsistencies in the older games. I think the big difference in the reactions was what was advertised and promised to the fans up to two weeks before launch and what was given. This may seem strange but that fact that so many people are upset about it, shows how much people love the company. *shrug*

^^ This is why I was upset. I'm done being upset since BioWare basically shoved their fingers in their ears and shouted "Artistic Vision" over and over and over again when fans started to call them out on it.

They also said that people would hate the ending, weeks before launch.

[thesnake777]

txgoldrush wrote...


She may have been weak minded but she was good hearted.....once again compare to Vader, Cadeus, and Revan. She would never join the Sith or be drunk on the dark side like she is on Unknown Planet.

Once again, more traits of a Grey Jedi than a Sith drunk on th edark side.

And once again you ignore the points I bring up about Revan, Malek,and Anakin in previous posts. The continual comparison to Revan makes me bealive that you do not know what went on during the mandilorian wars..that or your saying that they were always the way they are after they fall. Malek was good hearted. Anakin was good hearted. Revan was good hearted.
So I will ask again do you know what transpired during the mandilorian wars?
do you fully grasp the Jedi code? I have pointed to multple falws which would lead to her fall. I have given example and comparison to the same people you keep qouting as the epitome of the dark side.
drunk of of power?
She has been shown to enjoy putting people in there place..why would she not really enjoying getting wild and crazy with the dark side.

[Omega2079]

Silly op, the variety of opinion within the BSN is not shared by all members.

[thesnake777]

txgoldrush wrote...

Notho wrote...

thesnake777 wrote...

About Kotor
You know nothing of the Dark Side....I also find your lack of Faith disturbing.
Deep down she knew the sith way was the right way. Embrace it..Embrace it.

About Bioware.
There have always been minor inconsistencies in the older games. I think the big difference in the reactions was what was advertised and promised to the fans up to two weeks before launch and what was given. This may seem strange but that fact that so many people are upset about it, shows how much people love the company. *shrug*

^^ This is why I was upset. I'm done being upset since BioWare basically shoved their fingers in their ears and shouted "Artistic Vision" over and over and over again when fans started to call them out on it.

They also said that people would hate the ending, weeks before launch.

they also said there would be multiple endings based upon your descions two weeks before the launch. And we would never get a "a,b,c choice" 

[thesnake777]

Ryzaki wrote...

...

Grey Jedi actually have to have more control and humility than EITHER side. I'd say it's far far more difficult to be a Grey Jedi than DS or LS. Grey Jedi have to be able to make decisions on their own and keep the careful balance between LS and DS. Where's a LS or DS Jedi can just go through life following their master's word like it's law.

Yea they also both whithin sith ranks and jedi ranks. They are intersting but very small in number and ten to lean one way or the other. Though bastilla was never a grey Jedi.

Edit: she scoffed at Grey Jedi when dealing with that hemit..I forget him name...

Modifié par thesnake777, 23 juin 2012 - 10:09 .

[Ryzaki]

Well to be fair it wasn't a, b, c it was blue, green, red.

[thesnake777]

Ryzaki wrote...

Well to be fair it wasn't a, b, c it was blue, green, red.

hahahahahahaahh
You got me there. 

[Almighty_Hoogs]

Nah. They ****ed up with the promises that was going to be in the game. Fact.There's so many other things aswell that has been said on BSN many many times that i can't be arsed to re-write them.