100 réponses à ce sujet

[Dark83]

Cailan doesn't exactly pay attention to all the nobles. "Ooh, swords!"

[Asylumer]

Arijharn wrote...

8) Considering the amount of customisation options available to your character, isn't it highly likely that your character isn't actually the birth son/daughter of Bryce and Eleanor? Wouldn't this be considered a really bad thing since Arl Eamon, if he is any indication of what Fereldan nobility is all about, seems to truly like the idea of bloodlines? While Bryce and Eleanor seem to truly care for their children, would they truly be willing to adopt someone and then even potentially name that child their heir (since it seems that being first born isn't purely enough to guarantee succession).

I can only guess how your mother managed to get herself out of that one. 4 ranks in Coercion no doubt.

But seriously, I've yet to see a dark-skinned Dwarf but nothing stops me from making my Dwarf like that. I can't imagine the Castless PC's mother taking in adoptions either. The designers simply didn't want to restrict customization options for origins or go through the trouble of multiple NPC ethnicities like FO3 did with your father.

[Wrathra]

DPSSOC wrote...

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

And as an FYI, the noble romance option tells you that it's a very common rumour that your pc is generally considered the better pick for succssion of Highever over your brother.

 
Where is this?  I know this is hinted at in the Dwarven Noble Origin but I don't recall hearing it in the Human Noble one.  Of course I may have been distracted by the insult of being left behind on administration duty.

Dairren says it when you talk to him in the study after you meet him and his mother in the atrium.

[Ulicus]

Asylumer wrote...

I can only guess how your mother managed to get herself out of that one. 4 ranks in Coercion no doubt.

But seriously, I've yet to see a dark-skinned Dwarf but nothing stops me from making my Dwarf like that. I can't imagine the Castless PC's mother taking in adoptions either. The designers simply didn't want to restrict customization options for origins or go through the trouble of multiple NPC ethnicities like FO3 did with your father.

Your Casteless dwarf and Rica have different fathers, though, so there's that to consider at least.

[th3warr1or]

I wouldn't be surprised if technically the Couslands were more powerful than the king..



Technically, a king is the most powerful Teryn, but seeing how useless Cailan is, and how easily Loghain was able to usurp the throne, I wouldn't be surprised if your Terynir is more powerful than the King.

[Arijharn]

Koyasha wrote...

The title and position of Arl, from my understanding, is granted directly by the King to oversee a fortress of strategic importance. They don't control large amounts of land, presumably only the fortress and the immediate surrounding area. They also owe fealty directly to the King, not to the Teryns. Since Denerim is controlled by an Arl, and it's the King's city, it's under the relatively direct authority of the King, through the Arl of Denerim, who does not owe fealty to any Teyrns.

Teyrns are, essentially, any noble that a sufficient number of Banns have sworn fealty to. As the historian guy mentions, Bann Cousland became a Teyrn when a number of other Banns swore fealty to him a long time ago. There were, apparently, more Teyrns in Ferelden at one time, but after the Orlesian occupation this has been whittled down to two, the Teyrnir of Highever, and the Teyrnir of Gwaren.

But this can't be the case (or isn't the whole case) because you can mention to the historian guy himself that your family took some of Howe's land during I think the war with Orlais 'as is our right since they are our vassals'... or words to that effect. This means to me that it wasn't so much an 'act of war' (although who are we kidding, they were fighting during this period) but more a sort of 'annexation.'

[MKATAKM]

Another annoying thing is Highever was not shown on the map, implying that it is not so important although Couslands were supposed to be one of the most powerful nobles.

[Nobody Important]

MKATAKM wrote...

Another annoying thing is Highever was not shown on the map, implying that it is not so important although Couslands were supposed to be one of the most powerful nobles.

Its on the collector's edition cloth map...

[Vormaerin]

Ariella wrote...

Okay, IF Fereldan goes by a basic feudal model

Teyrn = Duke
Arl = Earl
Bann =baron

Banns swear to their Arl, who in turn swears to their Teyrn, who in turn swears to the king. Technically, of course, all nobles owe fealty to the King but through their respective "chains of command" So techincally, Highever covered most of the arls and banns of Northern Fereldan (not including Denerium which is a Teynir in its own right which is the property of the King, thus why an Arl admisters the city) Gwernth is the southen Tenyr and responsible for governance of the south... So Loghain violated his oaths to his own leigemen when he abandoned the south.

That's not the way it works according to the entries.    Teyrn are Banns who have the sworn service of other Banns.   Arls are officials appointed by the Teryns to control important castles and estates that they can't personally see to.    The King is, effectively, the most powerful Teyrn.

This isn't really comparable to any medieval system, though its least unlike the early medieval German situation.   The Landsmeet seems most like the Anglo-Saxon Wisengamot in function, though that's not an exact match either.

[Aedan_Cousland]

Wrathra wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

And as an FYI, the noble romance option tells you that it's a very common rumour that your pc is generally considered the better pick for succssion of Highever over your brother.

 
Where is this?  I know this is hinted at in the Dwarven Noble Origin but I don't recall hearing it in the Human Noble one.  Of course I may have been distracted by the insult of being left behind on administration duty.

Dairren says it when you talk to him in the study after you meet him and his mother in the atrium.

Or the elven maid, Iona.

Another annoying thing is Highever was not shown on the map, implying that it is not so important although Couslands were supposed to be one of the most powerful nobles

I don't think you can draw too many conclusions from Highever not being on the map. It doesn't appear on the map only because it is a starting area, and you can't revisit it once you move on to Ostagar.

Some of the places on the map are certainly smaller than Highever, like Lothering.

Modifié par Aedan_Cousland, 15 décembre 2009 - 09:56 .

[Taritu]

The annoying thing about the noble origin is that you are the second child of the 3rd most powerful noble in the entire country. There's a good chance that your brother is dead, in which case you'd be the heir. And yet, mostly, it doesn't seem to matter. In a semi-feudal society, what Howe did with Loghain's ok to the Coulsands would be considered an absolute outrage, and you would easily be able to raise a huge army from the various Arls and Banns worried that their own rights could be taken away, not to mention all the ones who owe your family fealty. You would be 100X more dangerous to Loghain than any other origin being a Gray Warden. In fact, I would go so far as to say, that your survival, in any semi-feudal society, would virtually guarantee a civil war with you at its heart, one way or the other.



I recognize the game reasons for not implementing all of that, but at that least, it should have a lot more effect in conversations and so on.

[Vormaerin]

I think you are overstating the impact of Howe's actions. There were plenty of such wars in history, even in better organized countries than Ferelden appears to be. Don't forget that the Howes actually have a legitimate claim on Highever. The first Cousland was a Howe family retainer who seized the castle when Flemeth killed the castle's lord. Big chunks of the Highever Bannorate were seized from Amaranthine in wars past.



That's not to say that no one would care, but the suggestion that it was automatic civil war or even close to that is not borne out by even a cursory reading of real world history.

[DarkSpiral]

[quote]Taritu wrote...


In a semi-feudal society, what Howe did with Loghain's ok to the Coulsands would be considered an absolute outrage, and you would easily be able to raise a huge army from the various Arls and Banns worried that their own rights could be taken away, not to mention all the ones who owe your family fealty.[/quote]

Howe gloats (if you pick the correct dialogue) that he proved your family betrayed Fereldan.  Hogswallop, of course, but that isn't the point.  Thus, you are now alone, with the word of the throne and the CURRENT Teyrn of Highever against you.  Add that to the fact that the other nobles are just a bit preoccupied with either the Blight (Wulff, for example) or the civil war (pretty much everybody), and if you DID try to contest it, most nobles would respond with vague promises of future aid, at best.[/quote]

[quote]You would be 100X more dangerous to Loghain than any other origin being a Gray Warden. In fact, I would go so far as to say, that your survival, in any semi-feudal society, would virtually guarantee a civil war with you at its heart, one way or the other.[/quote]

Um...there is already a civil war occuring, and you ARE at the heart of it.  If you mean that a civl war would occur even of the Blight wasn't going on, I feel the need to point out that if the Blight had not occured, Cailan and Loghain's relationship probably would never have deteriorated to the point it did, the chaos that allowed Howe to pull off his coup and elevate his position wouldn't have been there, and thus the situation would not have happened the way it did.

EDIT: The post above mine has an excellent point.  The Couslands waged war on the Howe family for...er..I can't recall the exact number of years.  30,  I think, and possilbly more.  The kind apparently didn't get involved back then, soapparently the banns and teryn and arls can war upon each other without automatic retaliation from other nobles.

Modifié par DarkSpiral, 15 décembre 2009 - 10:45 .

[Vormaerin]

Well, to be fair, I think that first event was pre-Calenhad. But its clear from other codex entries (the memoirs of that queen, for instance), that the Bannorn do war upon each other pretty regularly even after the Kingdom is established.

[geoffsbg]

The only thing that really bothers me with the Cousland origin is the fact that you start the game totally broke. I mean, even after raiding the Cousland treasury, which clearly had not been sacked by Howe's men before you got there, you still end up in Ostagar with like 5 silver pieces, some elf roots, a couple frost rocks, and maybe 20-40 silver worth of other assorted low quality junk you scrounged. Even if you sell your family blade, shield, etc, you still only have enough to buy a few health poultices, or a dozen ice arrows.



I know, I know... balance. Let me ask this one question though. Is balance in all things more important than role-playing in a single player ROLE-playing game? I for one would not at all mind if some origins had distinct and even large advantages over others. A destitute elf from the alienage shouldn't start with the same resources as the son of the second most powerful family in Ferelden. There's plenty of opportunities to make money through the rest of the game, so elves wouldn't miss out on anything in the long run. It would also make role-playing a noble more 'realisitic' if you didn't have to worry as much about money in the beginning. You wouldn't be used to doing things for money, it wouldn't occur to you to do petty quests for a handful of silver, and you could skip a lot of that crap and still buy things you wanted in the early game. A city elf game would thus inherently be more difficult than a human noble one, on the same difficulty setting. But its a single player game... so who cares? Are your different characters from separate play throughs competing with each other? By the end of the game, things like money don't really play into the balance as much anyway.



Just some constructive criticism for an overall amazing game.........

[MKATAKM]

Taritu wrote...

The annoying thing about the noble origin is that you are the second child of the 3rd most powerful noble in the entire country. There's a good chance that your brother is dead, in which case you'd be the heir. And yet, mostly, it doesn't seem to matter. In a semi-feudal society, what Howe did with Loghain's ok to the Coulsands would be considered an absolute outrage, and you would easily be able to raise a huge army from the various Arls and Banns worried that their own rights could be taken away, not to mention all the ones who owe your family fealty. You would be 100X more dangerous to Loghain than any other origin being a Gray Warden. In fact, I would go so far as to say, that your survival, in any semi-feudal society, would virtually guarantee a civil war with you at its heart, one way or the other.

I recognize the game reasons for not implementing all of that, but at that least, it should have a lot more effect in conversations and so on.

I agree. I want to search for my brother. I want to return to Highever and take it back. These could be very nice side quests.

[MKATAKM]

geoffsbg wrote...
The only thing that really bothers me with the Cousland origin is the fact that you start the game totally broke. I mean, even after raiding the Cousland treasury, which clearly had not been sacked by Howe's men before you got there, you still end up in Ostagar with like 5 silver pieces, some elf roots, a couple frost rocks, and maybe 20-40 silver worth of other assorted low quality junk you scrounged. Even if you sell your family blade, shield, etc, you still only have enough to buy a few health poultices, or a dozen ice arrows.
I know, I know... balance.

I don't care balance, I want a more believable story. If the story is disturbing balance, then adjust the story to preserve the balance. A good story in an RPG is more important than balance, however a better story is a good one which is also preserving balance. These things require good thinking and hardworking I know. But while even the people here (non-professionals) can think of hundreds of good alternatives, I cannot say that the developers of the game has done a good job, sorry.

[Arijharn]

geoffsbg wrote...
I know, I know... balance. Let me ask this one question though. Is balance in all things more important than role-playing in a single player ROLE-playing game? I for one would not at all mind if some origins had distinct and even large advantages over others. A destitute elf from the alienage shouldn't start with the same resources as the son of the second most powerful family in Ferelden. There's plenty of opportunities to make money through the rest of the game, so elves wouldn't miss out on anything in the long run. It would also make role-playing a noble more 'realisitic' if you didn't have to worry as much about money in the beginning. You wouldn't be used to doing things for money, it wouldn't occur to you to do petty quests for a handful of silver, and you could skip a lot of that crap and still buy things you wanted in the early game. A city elf game would thus inherently be more difficult than a human noble one, on the same difficulty setting. But its a single player game... so who cares? Are your different characters from separate play throughs competing with each other? By the end of the game, things like money don't really play into the balance as much anyway.

I agree to an extent. The extent being that no side should be inherently easier or harder based off an origin, but merely different. I guess this is sort of handled via Dwarf Commoner's ability to steal or something, but that isn't really what I mean.

[Gold Dragon]

Actually, the PC (especially when Female) being known to the Banns & Arls can be more easily explained.



City Elf Starts out as an Arrainged Marriage. It is not uncommon for Nobles to do the same with younger sons (and even more so with daughters, even when firstborn) to secure political alliances, etc...



Want to bet that Bryce was doing the same with the PC? (Not necessarily with the Visitor, as that was more from the Teryna) The King (already Married, and no heir) wouldn't exactly be in on that now....

[Baalzie]

Arijharn wrote...
1) Is Highever = Castle Cousland? If so, there seems to be a bit of a divide since Inora (who my character always seem to fall into bed with) seems to say that your family is among the nicest of all the nobles in regards to elves being more equal than most in regards other alienages. This contrasts to the family in the City Elf origin that was originally going to move to Highever but didn't due to the rumour that the noble family is amongst the worst in regards to human/elf relations.

Actually, things change alot depending on Origin You play... Different Origins make sure that npc's in game make totally different life choices...

Like the sidekick in Dwarf commoner Origin... If You play anything else the meeting with him is TOTALLY different from what You get if You played Commoner Origin with him... *don't wanna spoil it too much, it's actually a big deal*
Same With City Elf Origin, What happens to Your male sidekick friend is different...

So that is the reason of the difference of how the Couslands are seen in Human Noble and City Elf Origin... The world changes alot depending on Your choice of Origin...
Kinda Cool, noone can complain about inconsistency since Every playthrough is like another version of the same film! Not from another persons viewpoint but totally different version of the film!

[Wompoo]

The human noble origin may have been the shortest, didn't notice really because I actually enjoyed it more then all the other so called origins combined. Now if you want a short and totally totally forgettable origin try the Dalish origin, gods that is really bad. The Noble origin is the only one I play now (or will play) for 2 hander, sword and board, archer, rogues (would even make my mage one if I could) The rest just leave a bad taste in my mouth when I get to the end of the game.

Modifié par Wompoo, 16 décembre 2009 - 03:53 .

[Time4Tiddy]

So one thing I'm curious about - slightly sideline to the thread here. And btw, BIG SPOILERS (I double checked that I'm in the spoilers forum).



If you play as a male human noble, and the Couslands are second only to the king in "royalty", and you impregnate Morrigan, does that make the eventual child a potential contender for king (or queen) of Ferelden?



Consider: Anora is a commoner, and Arl Eamon hates the thought of her becoming queen and losing the royal lineage. Alistair, as a Warden, is most likely sterile. So with either one as ruler, you are setting up a succession battle in the future. This matter is even more complicated if Alistair impregnates Morrigan, as that is likely the only child he'll ever have.



Personally, I'm assuming for any sequels that the "canon" will be you were human male noble and you were the father of Morrigan's child, Alistair and Anora were married and ruled jointly.

[Arijharn]

Time4Tiddy wrote...
If you play as a male human noble, and the Couslands are second only to the king in "royalty", and you impregnate Morrigan, does that make the eventual child a potential contender for king (or queen) of Ferelden?

No, because the Couslands aren't actually royalty anyway, although they are high standing in the nobility. Technically though, he isn't another heir to the Cousland line either because I'm pretty sure as soon as you become a Grey Warden you forfeit your title and claim (at least, I think this is implied if not stated outright at some point in the story)

Time4Tiddy wrote...
Consider: Anora is a commoner, and Arl Eamon hates the thought of her becoming queen and losing the royal lineage. Alistair, as a Warden, is most likely sterile. So with either one as ruler, you are setting up a succession battle in the future. This matter is even more complicated if Alistair impregnates Morrigan, as that is likely the only child he'll ever have.

Actually Anora is queen before the events of the game. She is queen because her husband is King Cailan who died at the start of the game at the Battle for Ostagar. Also, if becoming a Warden automatically made you sterile then Morrigan wouldn't actually be able to conceive with you in the first place (note; as a male if you slept with her at any time throughout the course of the game, even if you didn't perform the ritual with her, her epilogue suggests she is pregnant with your child anyway - at least I got this result when I totally refused her ritual, and didn't pass it off to Alistair to perform)

I agree though, the potential for further plot shenanigans due to the fact it could be Alistair's child is far more delicious really than if it was yours. However, I doubt a DA sequel would really 'canonize' a particular story, especially since they put so much effort into the idea of origins in this one.

[MKATAKM]

Arijharn wrote...
Actually Anora is queen before the events of the game. She is queen because her husband is King Cailan who died at the start of the game at the Battle for Ostagar.....

I have seen similar comments on other forms too, Anora is Queen since she was married to the King. Then I ask, why can I not be Queen even when after married to King Alistair, and just princess-consort or something like that although I am a true noble origin unlike Anora herself. It seems so that everything in the game works against the player to prevent her/him from taking the highest title let alone making impossible taking the crown. That really bothers me, this is a huge injustice. Bad people are always winning like in the real life, eh?

[Gecon]

About 8) : in EVERY SINGLE ONE of the origins it is assumed that you are YOUNG, yet there is the option to create really old people in the Character Creation.