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Things I don't get about the Couslands and their place in Fereldan...


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#51
Gecon

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geoffsbg wrote...

The only thing that really bothers me with the Cousland origin is the fact that you start the game totally broke. I mean, even after raiding the Cousland treasury, which clearly had not been sacked by Howe's men before you got there, you still end up in Ostagar with like 5 silver pieces, some elf roots, a couple frost rocks, and maybe 20-40 silver worth of other assorted low quality junk you scrounged. Even if you sell your family blade, shield, etc, you still only have enough to buy a few health poultices, or a dozen ice arrows.

I know, I know... balance. [...]

What balance ? You can get more than 28 gold from the dwarven noble origin, and thats if you dont realize that you will lose everything except your money and sell every valueable item. Then you end up close to 30 gold.

Compared to that, you'll be pretty poor in all other Origins. Theres also a rumor about the chance of getting 40 gold from the City Elf origin, but you wont gain access to it for a long time because you have to hide that money in a safe spot or it will be taken away from you again.

#52
Gecon

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Wompoo wrote...

The human noble origin may have been the shortest, didn't notice really because I actually enjoyed it more then all the other so called origins combined. Now if you want a short and totally totally forgettable origin try the Dalish origin, gods that is really bad. [...]

Hu ? What ? 

I loved the Dalish elves origin, it comes with a ton of interesting lore and you can talk with really a lot of people who have something to say. And while Dalish is short, its still a lot longer than the human noble origin. And unlike the human noble origin, its explained very well why you would become a Warden in the first place.

Where the other Origins not also brilliant, Dalish elves certainly had a good chance to be my favorite Origin. The only origin which really sucks is human noble - short, bad explained why being a Warden, not much lore, and downright pitiful equipment without explanation. Only City Elf gets a worse start than human noble.

#53
MKATAKM

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If you are capable of killing dragons then it doesn't matter whether you look young or not. Fate of the whole Ferelden depends on you, but, no, you cannot be royal even if you rescue the world and are noble enough. This is a railroad story in the end. Small variations in the middle does not matter while the end is forced like this. I do not say this is a bad game, no, this is a really good railroad game but not RPG enough. The problem is when I was buying this game I thought I was buying a great RPG, maybe RPG of the decade. But to me, this is a huge disappointment. In that I am really really very sorry. Should I known this from the beginning I would really enjoy this great game, but alas, no.

#54
MKATAKM

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Starting a new game with a different origing and gender may lead to some variations in the game. However, please do choose the same gender and origin a second time and try to follow a different path and see how much will your different choices affect the outcome. And you will see how a poor RPG this game is.

#55
Dark83

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What exactly is your definition of RPG? We are playing the Role of the Grey Warden, so...?

#56
Vormaerin

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MKATAKM wrote...
although I am a true noble origin unlike Anora herself.


People really need to get off this "commoner Anora" kick.    The Couslands are descended from a guard captain who usurped his lord's place.    The only difference between them and Anora is how long ago their ancestor was ennobled.   Well, that and the fact that the Couslands seized their title by brute force and the Mac Tirs got it by service to the King.

Eamon is the only one who expresses this "Anora is a commoner" tripe and he says it in the same discussion where he rules himself out as not having royal blood either.    Eamon is stuck on "Theiran royal blood" out of personal preference to the point that he'll promote an unfit bastard over established lords and the existing Queen.

I don't know why they have that "Princess Consort" stuff.  It doesn't make much sense to me, but there may be elements of the social structure that we aren't aware of.    Perhaps it is a result of the PC being a Gray Warden and there is some sort of prohibition about Wardens taking the full royal title because of that coup in the past.    But that doesn't explain Alistair being able to be King, so.... dunno.

#57
DPSSOC

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Gecon wrote...

I loved the Dalish elves origin, it comes with a ton of interesting lore and you can talk with really a lot of people who have something to say. And while Dalish is short, its still a lot longer than the human noble origin. And unlike the human noble origin, its explained very well why you would become a Warden in the first place.

Where the other Origins not also brilliant, Dalish elves certainly had a good chance to be my favorite Origin. The only origin which really sucks is human noble - short, bad explained why being a Warden, not much lore, and downright pitiful equipment without explanation. Only City Elf gets a worse start than human noble.


Human noble origin gives a perfectly good reason to become a Warden, you've been drafted.  Even if you don't oppose the idea of becoming a Grey Warden there's no way you're making it out of that Castle and all the way to Ostagar by yourself and if you want Duncan's help you need to join.  It may not be the most noble of reasons and certainly borders on extortion but the same can be said for almost any Origin.

City Elf - Join or you're arrested and most likely killed

Dalish Elf - Join or suffer a wasting illness and die or become corrupted

Dwarf Commoner - Join or be arrested, and after numerous brutal punishments die

Dwarf Noble - Join or wander the Deep Roads until you die

Mage - Join or face the judgement of the Templars

The only thing that differs from Origin to Origin is how much you'll suffer before you die if you don't join.

Having said that I did love the Dalish Origin as well (all the Origins really), but to say it gives a better reason for the PC to join the Warden's isn't exactly accurate

Modifié par DPSSOC, 16 décembre 2009 - 04:06 .


#58
Thiefy

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MKATAKM wrote...

Starting a new game with a different origing and gender may lead to some variations in the game. However, please do choose the same gender and origin a second time and try to follow a different path and see how much will your different choices affect the outcome. And you will see how a poor RPG this game is.

 Seriously?

You do realize that like 95% of any other RPGs out there give you more of a railroad than this?

Most of them don't give you the option to visually customize your characters.
--IF they do, it's usually armor, and weapons. The 'better' ones let you pick out hair styles, maybe eye color, but no where near the facial detail as DAO.
----Forget that even, how many RPGs let you play as a female alone? Maybe this is where my lack of PC game experience shows, but most games out there, even with 'exceptional' customization of race, class, looks etc, you are still forced to play as a man.

Most of them don't give you the option to romance characters.
--IF they do, it's usually only the plot specific ones and not random NPCs all over the world.
----Now, there are a rare few that give you options to flirt/bed one or two random NPCs, but not with the same amount of variety as DAO. And not nearly with the same amount of depth. Some NPCs only require coercian, some a side quest, and some nothing at all. The 'type' of reward you get also varies depending on the NPC and your gender.
--When you do get to romance a plot specific NPC, it's usually just one or two quests, one or two dialogue options and bam, happy ending - which by the way, you usually don't have the option of back out of or accidently screwing up. Honestly, how many other games are out there that have this kind of depth put into relationships when the story doesn't even center around that?

Most of those RPGs don't give you varying dialouge branches.
--IF they do, it usually ends up in one of those retarded endless loop dialouge boxes that forces you to pick the choice you've been avoiding the whole time. Or if it doesn't, nothing ever comes up of those dialouge choices later. While some dialogue choices do end up like this in DAO (especially if you act like a ******), you end up with more dialogue options later, possibly some character quests, updated codex entries, a possible romance, a token of affection, etc.

Most RPGs don't give you the option to screw over your teammates so badly as DAO.
--IF they do, it's usually only one or two people. You have the option to kill just about every party member, with the exception of Oghren, Dog, and Morrigan. Dog you don't even have to recruit, and while you don't get to kill Morrigan presently, you do have the option to betray her and have her possed by Flemmeth later on.
----There's also the fact that you can screw over the people who you are supposed to help, in order to get them to help you. Most RPGs force you to take the good guy route, but how many let you abandon or even attack the people you are supposed to save? 3 or 4 times over?

I'm sure you can name a few RPGs that fit into one, multiple, or even all catagories, but that doesn't mean DAO is a "poor RPG" as you put it. What exaclty were you expecting? 5 or 6 entirely different stories mashed into one CD? In most RPGs it's not "your role" - it's you playing the role of a specific character, putting yourself in thier shoes and experiencing their tale. DAO gives you a hell of a lot more options that most traditonal RPGs. Contrary to what you believe our choices do make a difference. Do we see the effects immediately? No, because for one thing, that is an entirely different game, and for another thing, the major concern is the blight.

You can have the Dalish completely wiped out and shortly thereafter, the werewolves subsequently will as well. You can have the dwarves more or less wipe themselves out with Harrowmont, or have Bhelen create a new social reform for them. The mages can continue to be surervised by the Chantry or can be set free from it, while the alieange elves can be further abused, or lifted up to be the equals they should be. You don't see this in game, because those things take time, and right now your focus is the blight.

Just because you can bend *ever-single-little-tiny-detail* to your whim because you have maxed coercion and cunning doesn't mean this is a shoddy RPG. Far from it. I really don't see why it's so hard to understand that, hey your actions have consequences, and you can't just do as you please. If there was *that* much freedom then people would be moaning "this game isn't believable enough! I did this, this and this and noone said anything about it? You'd think someone would pipe up and say it's wrong!" Lo and behold when they do it's "Why can't I do this?!? This is an RPG, I should do what I want!"

And people have the gall to call Alistair whiney. Posted Image Give someone an inch and they take a mile.

#59
Dark83

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When the Prince of Wales (Charles) marries the Duchess of Cornwall (Camilla) she becomes the Princess of Wales. When the Prince of Wales becomes king, she will become "Her Royal Highness The Princess Consort", not "Her Majesty The Queen". This stuff is complicated. :P

#60
MKATAKM

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Dark83 wrote...
What exactly is your definition of RPG? We are playing the Role of the Grey Warden, so...?

I thought it was obvious but apperantly I was wrong. A true RPG is a game outcome of which is affected greatly by the player choices. Playing a pre-determined role is not RPG, otherwise 'Call of Duty: Warhead' would also be RPG since you are playing roles of several war heroes there. If the outcome does not change significantly then it is most likely a real-time strategy/action game. In this definition, this is really a great game.

#61
Thiefy

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Dark83 wrote...

When the Prince of Wales (Charles) marries the Duchess of Cornwall (Camilla) she becomes the Princess of Wales. When the Prince of Wales becomes king, she will become "Her Royal Highness The Princess Consort", not "Her Majesty The Queen". This stuff is complicated. :P

Isn't that because she's a divorcee? Wouldn't Diana have been the queen should they still have been married?

#62
Dark83

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Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

Dark83 wrote...

When the Prince of Wales (Charles) marries the Duchess of Cornwall (Camilla) she becomes the Princess of Wales. When the Prince of Wales becomes king, she will become "Her Royal Highness The Princess Consort", not "Her Majesty The Queen". This stuff is complicated. :P

Isn't that because she's a divorcee? Wouldn't Diana have been the queen should they still have been married?

I have no idea. I know she doesn't actually go by Princess of Wales because it would cause confusion with Diana. Other than that, you'd have to ask a Brit.

MKATAKM wrote...

Dark83 wrote...
What exactly is your definition of RPG? We are playing the Role of the Grey Warden, so...?

I
thought it was obvious but apperantly I was wrong. A true RPG is a game
outcome of which is affected greatly by the player choices. Playing a
pre-determined role is not RPG, otherwise 'Call of Duty: Warhead' would
also be RPG since you are playing roles of several war heroes there. If
the outcome does not change significantly then it is most likely a
real-time strategy/action game. In this definition, this is really a
great game.

So... Oblivion and FO3 aren't RPGs then? Or Baldur's Gate? Or Diablo, or Fable, or Dungeon Siege?

#63
MKATAKM

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Thank you, Thief-of-Hearts, for your detailed answer to my whines about the game :) But let me explain my reasons.

- You do realize that like 95% of any other RPGs out there give you more of a railroad than this?
- Yes I do realize that, and you are right. But my expectations for this game was really very high, perhaps too high :)

- Most of them don't give you the option to visually customize your characters.
- Your choice of appearance does not change the outcome. Even when I make the ugliest char, Zevran still calls me as handsome :)

- Forget that even, how many RPGs let you play as a female alone?
- Believe me, the number is fair enough. For example play Titan Quest, or Sacred 2. I know they are not better than this game either. But they (this game included) are still great games. just not as RPG as I would like.

- Most of them don't give you the option to romance characters.
- Yes, but a very limited romance. Still does not affect outcome of the game plot. Just a nice variety. But I liked it very much, really.

- IF they do, it's usually only the plot specific ones and not random NPCs all over the world. Now, there are a rare few that give you options to flirt/bed one or two random NPCs, but not with the same amount of variety as DAO. And not nearly with the same amount of depth.
- You are right again. But not enough variety and depth for my taste. Due to higher expectations perhaps.

- Most of those RPGs don't give you varying dialouge branches. If they do, it usually ends up in one of those retarded endless loop dialouge boxes that forces you to pick the choice you've been avoiding the whole time. Or if it doesn't, nothing ever comes up of those dialouge choices later.
- You may think this game better in this regard, but alas, I many times felt exactly the same way as for this game as you described for the other games, i.e. endless loops forcing you to choose the one you avoided the whole time.

- Most RPGs don't give you the option to screw over your teammates so badly as DAO.
- The worst outcome for this behaviour is you will lose him/her. So what?

- There's also the fact that you can screw over the people who you are supposed to help, in order to get them to help you. Most RPGs force you to take the good guy route, but how many let you abandon or even attack the people you are supposed to save? 3 or 4 times over?
- Whether you choose to be ultimate evil or ultimate good, strangely does not affect the end game in an important way. And this is what I am trying to say from the beginning.

- I'm sure you can name a few RPGs that fit into one, multiple, or even all catagories, but that doesn't mean DAO is a "poor RPG" as you put it.
- There is not a single alternative game that fits my definition of good RPG. However when people stop complaining about how better a game can be, and they start being content all the time, then how can you expect the games to become better the next time?

- Just because you can bend *ever-single-little-tiny-detail* to your whim because you have maxed coercion and cunning doesn't mean this is a shoddy RPG.
- Did I say that, that is, I wanted to bend *ever-single-little-tiny-detail* to my whim? I am saying that, whatever path I follow, whether I be the ultimate evil, or a saint one, the end result is always from one of the two:
1) Alistair becomes King
2) Anore becomes Queen.
You can at most be a consort or something like that whatever you do or not. And you still call this a good RPG? Even so, then it is enough to satisfy you, but if that does not satisfy me then it is not my fault. It is not a fault at all. Just trying to have better games in the future.

Modifié par MKATAKM, 16 décembre 2009 - 04:43 .


#64
MKATAKM

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Dark83 wrote...
So... Oblivion and FO3 aren't RPGs then? Or Baldur's Gate? Or Diablo, or Fable, or Dungeon Siege?

All these are great games, I enjoyed each one of them greatly. But in none of them I felt as limited as I did in this game. Maybe it is just a feeling, but I think this is what is important, that is, how you feel in the end. And if you are not feeling right then there should be something wrong. Playing the game was very fun, but in the end I felt completely unsatisfied with the end result being enforced on you to this extent. And I am not alone in this. There are many other people just like me. And ignoring our whines branding us whinies will not make things better. Please try to understand a bit.

#65
Dark83

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MKATAKM wrote...
And ignoring our whines branding us whinies will not make things better.

I merely questioned/challenged your definition of an RPG. There's a difference between "This game feels restrictive" and "This game isn't an RPG." One is a declaration of opinion, the latter is a derogatory statement in the manner of "No True Scotsman".

99% of the time, how you say something is as important as what you say. Delivery is also part of the message.

#66
Thiefy

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MKATAKM- Anytime, that's what I do. Cause mischief, trouble and on the occasion a severe headache. :)

I get what you are saying but what pointed also was that regardless of all that, being good or evil or whoever becomes king/queen, you MUST stop the blight. There is no other way around it. That said, Fereldan MUST have a ruler so that you can get the troops you need to support you, storyline wise. There are no known, other feasible options than Anora or Alistair. I suppose you could go around looking to see if Cailin had any bastards, but to what point? Yet another sidequest that is only speculation which could split the country into a 3 way civil war?

The significance of everything else you do can't really be argued - yet, because this is just phase 1 in a multiple phase series. We do know that our actions, through slides, cause some kind of ripple, at least in Fereldan. The extent of that ripple is unknown for now, but that doesn't it won't be later on.

You don't know if Leliana will do some crazy if there are some shennanigans with the Urn of Ashes, or you can leave her dead and the Ashes broken should you choose the evil route. Zevran can take over the Crows and may become a power ally in Antiva later on - or you can kill him and have the option removed from a later installation.

I understand you want game improvement and only mean to seek to do that with your criticism, but there's a difference between "Hey, wouldn't it be cool if we could do "X, Y and Z", and "this game isn't a good RPG because I can't do "A, B, and C." The Bioware team, or parts of team do read and interact with this community. If they get a lot of negativity they'll think they did something wrong, and I don't think that is the case here. Or course they can do more, there is always potential to do more and it's perfectly fine for people to express that they do want more, but how you put it is another thing in itself.

99% of the time, how you say something is as important as what you say. Delivery is also part of the message.

Ah, he beat me to it. But yes, that is the case, IMO. Posted Image

Modifié par Thief-of-Hearts, 16 décembre 2009 - 05:24 .


#67
MKATAKM

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Dark83 wrote...
There's a difference between "This game feels restrictive" and "This game isn't an RPG."

I didn't say this game was not RPG, but I said this game wasn't a good RPG, because you do not feel limited in a good RPG. There are 32 different possible game starts and there are only two different end resulsts, and even they are very similar, that is, all darkspawn are defeated and happy ending, nice.
But I would prefer only 2 different possible game starts with 32 different possible endings and that would be a great RPG. I hope I am more clear now.

#68
tmp7704

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Arijharn wrote...

3) Caste Cousland itself. For the home for a Teryn it seems to be woefully underequipped and poorly maintained. A vast difference to the fortress that is apparently the home to Arl Urien (of Amaranthine?).

Until the Couslands' takeover/rebellion Castle Highever was just an outpost in the bannorn/arling of Amaranthine. While they had time since then to expand it, it makes sense it's not as large fortress as some which were built larger from the beginning.

Modifié par tmp7704, 16 décembre 2009 - 05:27 .


#69
MKATAKM

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Thief-of-Hearts wrote...
MKATAKM- Anytime, that's what I do. Cause mischief, trouble and on the occasion a severe headache. :)

Not at all, no trouble, no headache, it is a pleasure to converse with good people like ones here. And I thank Bioware for providing a ground like this to express our feelings and an opportunity for a new community around a great new game. As you said, it is important how you deliver a message. But first, my native language is not English, second, my culture is different and different cultures delivers the same message differently even when using other languages. There is a saying in my culture, a baby will not be fed if it does not cry. That is very good indeed, meaning just wanting may not be enough, add some crying to it to make it more effective :)

#70
Dark83

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How many CRPGs have had 32 endings? At best, a game has Good End/Evil End/Game Over. Oblivion has the one, FO3 has something like 2(?) based entirely on how you answer two binary questions at the end. At least in DA:O, you actually see the consequences of most of your actions, like in FO1/2.

(Aside from that, what 2 endings? Success and failure? Aren't there only 6 origins? 12 if you count male/female... unless you're counting the mechanical differences as different starts, but that would be silly, since mage alone would have at least a dozen variations.)

#71
DPSSOC

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MKATAKM wrote...

I didn't say this game was not RPG, but I said this game wasn't a good RPG, because you do not feel limited in a good RPG. There are 32 different possible game starts and there are only two different end resulsts, and even they are very similar, that is, all darkspawn are defeated and happy ending, nice.
But I would prefer only 2 different possible game starts with 32 different possible endings and that would be a great RPG. I hope I am more clear now.


I can see your point but think of it logically.  In order for there to be 32 different endings you'd need to have a game with no end goal.  If you set a goal the player must accomplish to beat the game there are only so many ways you can go about doing it.

Now as far as DA having only 2 endings I can think of 4.

Loghain sacrifice to kill Archdemon
Alistair sacrifice to kill Archdemon
Player sacrifice to kill Archdemon
Dark Ritual

That's not even taking account how you dealt with the main story quests, who's ruling, etc.

The effect your choices have on the game is what the Epilogue slides are for, showing you the world your actions have created.  Now if all you want is a choice at the very end of the game for a different ending cinematic that's fine whatever floats your particular boat.  Personally I'd prefer more variation throughout the game (Which DAO provides since if I'm not mistaken there are at least 3 ways to end each main story quest), over a pure railroad with a long list of options come the end.

#72
MKATAKM

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Dark83 wrote...
How many CRPGs have had 32 endings? At best, a game has Good End/Evil End/Game Over. Oblivion has the one, FO3 has something like 2(?) based entirely on how you answer two binary questions at the end. At least in DA:O, you actually see the consequences of most of your actions, like in FO1/2.
(Aside from that, what 2 endings? Success and failure? Aren't there only 6 origins? 12 if you count male/female... unless you're counting the mechanical differences as different starts, but that would be silly, since mage alone would have at least a dozen variations.)

Hmmm, then let me think for other possible outcomes a bit. You can be the new King, you can marry to Leliana making her your Queen, not that ugly consort sort :)
You can use your cunning to persuase Anora to accept you as a King. You can be a darkspawn general after pouring dragon blood over ashes. Or your soul may merge with the soul of the dragon god after a special ritual with Morrigan, and become a darkspawn King over Ferelden. Would you want me to complete this list to 32. And I didn't say possible outcomes should be 32. Just how a great RPG it would be if it did. Do you think it is really impossible? Is there a limit to imagination? These certainly are just wishful thinkings.
Was there really a single ending in the Oblivian? It is as though many years has passed over it and I really do not remember. But I remember how I felt when playing it. It felt like I was playing a very enhanced Quake or something like that :) Did I show you a better RPG alternative? I said there was none. The technology required for a very realistic RPG game is not far away, yet now the limit becomes the imagination power of the people, and the time and other resources required for such huge projects. That still does not stop me from wanting the ultimate.

#73
Dark83

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You misunderstood my question. You said there were only two possible end results - I'm wondering what you're referring to. There's at least 4 general ends (3 different people sacrifice themselves, or you bone Morrigan). The specifics are then influenced by your origin and other decisions. So I'm curious as to what you mean by "there are only two different end results".

#74
MKATAKM

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DPSSOC wrote...
I can see your point but think of it logically.  In order for there to be 32 different endings you'd need to have a game with no end goal.

Thank you for the pinpoint statement of my problem. That's it. You cannot have your own goal to pursue, but the game puts a goal in front of you. Then maybe my definition of RPG is wrong. If, by definition, an RPG puts a goal for you to achieve, then this game is an RPG. And I am wrong from the beginning, and wanting a diffferent type of game, wrongly calling it RPG ?

#75
MKATAKM

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Dark83 wrote...

You misunderstood my question. You said there were only two possible end results - I'm wondering what you're referring to. There's at least 4 general ends (3 different people sacrifice themselves, or you bone Morrigan). The specifics are then influenced by your origin and other decisions. So I'm curious as to what you mean by "there are only two different end results".


Apperantly there are 5 different endings:

----- Darkspawn is defeated
---------- Anora becomes Queen:
--------------- 1) You are a consort
--------------- 2) You are not a consort
---------- Alistair becomes King:
--------------- 3) You are a consort
--------------- 4) You are not a consort
--------------- 5) Anore is Queen

You see, 5 sub-outcomes are in fact grouped under 2 major outcomes, and it does not matter whether you become an ineffective consort or not. Those two major outcomes are further merged to one in the end, resulting only the defeat of the darkspawn. And none of them makes me feel satisfied. Maybe the problem is here. People want to be king/queen themselves after working so hard. Who sacrifies himself, or whether you go with Morrigan's ritual or not just changes a paragraph or two in one of the ending slides, and that does not make you feel as if you did something significant.