100 réponses à ce sujet

[MrIsidor]

To return on-topic.



What I find strange about the human noble origin, is what speedy march Fergus and the Cousland army must have made when they set off.

You talk to Fergus before you go to bed the night Howe makes his attack. So Fergus and the army must have left late in the evening (which in itself seems odd) , only a few hours before the attack. Yet they apparently reach Ostagar way before you and Duncan do, as they're allready sent away on a scouting mission. You would think that 2 lightly equipped people (the PC and Duncan) would move faster than a small army easily catch up with them.

[MKATAKM]

MrIsidor wrote...

To return on-topic.

What I find strange about the human noble origin, is what speedy march Fergus and the Cousland army must have made when they set off.
You talk to Fergus before you go to bed the night Howe makes his attack. So Fergus and the army must have left late in the evening (which in itself seems odd) , only a few hours before the attack. Yet they apparently reach Ostagar way before you and Duncan do, as they're allready sent away on a scouting mission. You would think that 2 lightly equipped people (the PC and Duncan) would move faster than a small army easily catch up with them.

One more very good question. And I thought I was the only one asking such questions before I came here But don't bother, everything can be explained in some logic. Let me provide you with one: Your brother have an order directly from King. He should be ready with his soldiers at a specific time and place. So he does not have time to return to the castle and retake it. However I still cannot explain why you cannot find your brother on the way and inform him.

Modifié par MKATAKM, 16 décembre 2009 - 07:10 .

[Dark83]

Perhaps an army in a hurry is less likely to be delayed than a pair having to escape from an army?

[Mnemnosyne]

MrIsidor wrote...

To return on-topic.

What I find strange about the human noble origin, is what speedy march Fergus and the Cousland army must have made when they set off.
You talk to Fergus before you go to bed the night Howe makes his attack. So Fergus and the army must have left late in the evening (which in itself seems odd) , only a few hours before the attack. Yet they apparently reach Ostagar way before you and Duncan do, as they're allready sent away on a scouting mission. You would think that 2 lightly equipped people (the PC and Duncan) would move faster than a small army easily catch up with them.

Yeah, this in my opinion is one of the biggest holes in the Noble origin.  You presumably know not only where Fergus is going with his troops, but also which route he is taking to get there.  There's no good reason why, once you escape from the castle and get on the road, you wouldn't be able to catch up to Fergus on the way to Ostagar.  The only possibility would be if the entirety of Fergus's force was cavalry, but at no time was that even suggested or hinted at.  Two people traveling lightly, especially if they choose to rest as little as possible and march as long as possible, will easily catch up to Fergus who has, let's say a 12 to 20 hour head-start (assuming it takes you and Duncan a considerable amount of time to carefully sneak past Howe's forces surrounding the castle).

[MKATAKM]

Maybe they were mounted and you were just walking. Meanwhile another strange thing, i do not remember horses in the game, or soldiers riding horses. In one of game dialogs I remember mentioning horses being used as mounts to an elven girl who was responsible for some sort of animals. But I did not see a single one. Dogs yes, cats yes, goats yes, pigs yes, even dragons yes, but horses, no.

[LdyShayna]

Dark83 wrote...

Perhaps an army in a hurry is less likely to be delayed than a pair having to escape from an army?

This is what I assumed - that the PC and Duncan were being hunted, at least part of the way, and thus avoided the direct routes and main roads.  After all, Duncan's first priority was to get he and his new recruit safely to Ostagar.  While catching up to the cousland troops MIGHT have accomplished this, it might also expose them to all sorts of danger until they did, because specifically it WOULD be the most obvious choice, so Howe's men would have bene searching there. 

I also personally added that they avoided those bannorns that my PC thought might have allied with Howe, making their route even more tricky, but that's just me.

Fergus, however, was not limited in such a fashion, and would have taken the most direct and fastest route. 

So...it requires some explanation, but isn't entirely out of the realm of possibility for you to have arrived a half a day or more behind your brother, IMO.  I actually went for several days in my head, to give the poor chaps a chance to rest before being sent out scouting.  Heh.

[LdyShayna]

MKATAKM wrote...

Maybe they were mounted and you were just walking. Meanwhile another strange thing, i do not remember horses in the game, or soldiers riding horses. In one of game dialogs I remember mentioning horses being used as mounts to an elven girl who was responsible for some sort of animals. But I did not see a single one. Dogs yes, cats yes, goats yes, pigs yes, even dragons yes, but horses, no.

There are horses and calvary in Ferelden, but not in the game.  Purely a graphics/gameplay consideration, and not a setting thing.

[DPSSOC]

A thought occurs. Fergus is the older brother and the one most likely to become teryn when Bryce bites the dust. Why then is he the one going to battle instead of the PC? If the teryn is going to war wouldn't it make more sense to leave the one most likely to take over at the castle while the younger, more expendable, child goes to fight?

[MKATAKM]

Fergus is not more valuable, but more experienced than the PC, and much younger and more energetic than his father hence being the most suitable candidate for leading soldiers to a war.

[SWAvdb]

 Plus I'd think that Fergus, being the elder son, would surely need military experience!

As for the supposed wealth the Couslands are supposed to have (also in regards to the Arl of Denerim's estate), I really like it about Castle Cousland that it's rather sober;  most of the castles seem to be. It seems to fit the Ferelden spirit - a bit 'Spartan' if you will. 

I seem to remember reading a quote in-game somewhere about the Ferelden virtues. Wealth is not high on their list. 

[Ulicus]

Quickly, regarding the King having never met the youngest child. There's an option at Ostagar to say you never left Highever, true... however, as a (male) rogue, Howe says that Deliah took a fancy to your character when she saw him at a fair in Denerim. (Don't know if that's the same with Thomas and female rogues).

DUN DUN DUN.

Just throwing that out there.

Oh, and, because I can think of nowhere better to put it: I've also noticed a little continuity flib regarding the Couslands' history today. When you speak to Gorion the Second in the library, he speaks about a dude called "Mather Cousland" uniting the Banns against the werewolves during the Black Age and becoming the first Cousland Teyrn. Te book you can pick up in the library, however, states that it was Haelia Cousland, a woman, who did this.

GASP!
Maybe they were a couple and history disagrees over who wore the trousers?

Modifié par Ulicus, 16 décembre 2009 - 11:12 .

[Aedan_Cousland]

Ulicus wrote...

Quickly, regarding the King having never met the youngest child. There's an option at Ostagar to say you never left Highever, true... however, as a (male) rogue, Howe says that Deliah took a fancy to your character when she saw him at a fair in Denerim. (Don't know if that's the same with Thomas and female rogues).

With male warriors I believe Howe says she had a crush on you ever since she saw you in a tournament, though I don't recall if he says where the tournament was held.

[Ulicus]

Aedan_Cousland wrote...

Ulicus wrote...

Quickly, regarding the King having never met the youngest child. There's an option at Ostagar to say you never left Highever, true... however, as a (male) rogue, Howe says that Deliah took a fancy to your character when she saw him at a fair in Denerim. (Don't know if that's the same with Thomas and female rogues).

With male warriors I believe Howe says she had a crush on you ever since she saw you in a tournament, though I don't recall if he says where the tournament was held.

Yeah. I'd got that line before. This was the first time I'd gone down this dialogue track with a rogue, though, and it surprised me.

It was a shame you could never bump into the child of Howe that was into your character, actually. That'd have been interesting.

The rogue Cousland origin is... kind of weak, in some respects. My character was like, "You'd want to recruit me?" and Duncan said, seriously, "Of course! You're young and your dad put you in charge of the castle, so you're clearly responsible".

I laughed. At least Ser Gilmore and Fergus made him out to be more like the badass he is.

Modifié par Ulicus, 16 décembre 2009 - 11:39 .

[DPSSOC]

MKATAKM wrote...

Fergus is not more valuable, but more experienced than the PC, and much younger and more energetic than his father hence being the most suitable candidate for leading soldiers to a war.

His experience would also make him better qualified to run the Castle than the PC.  I can buy that Fergus is probably the better soldier but he's also the one who would have been instructed on how to be teryn his whole life, the PC has not.  Again there is the issue of succession to be considered.  If both Bryce and Fergus go to battle and both die the position of teryn falls to a child and his sword of truthiness.  Just as a matter of risk management the child most likely to take over after the father dies should not be going to war with his father.  Much like Cailan shouldn't have been at Ostagar.

[Dark83]

I thought that the PC was left behind specifically to get experience running the castle.

[geoffsbg]

Koyasha wrote...

Yeah, this in my opinion is one of the biggest holes in the Noble origin.  You presumably know not only where Fergus is going with his troops, but also which route he is taking to get there.  There's no good reason why, once you escape from the castle and get on the road, you wouldn't be able to catch up to Fergus on the way to Ostagar.  The only possibility would be if the entirety of Fergus's force was cavalry, but at no time was that even suggested or hinted at.  Two people traveling lightly, especially if they choose to rest as little as possible and march as long as possible, will easily catch up to Fergus who has, let's say a 12 to 20 hour head-start (assuming it takes you and Duncan a considerable amount of time to carefully sneak past Howe's forces surrounding the castle).

That's a good point.  When you get to Ostagar, the King tells you that your brother's forces just arrived the day before.  Or was it even that morning?  I forget.  Either way, that means that during the entire journey they maintained their 1/2-1 day lead on you, suggesting that you were going about the same speed.  Which does make you wonder why the heck you couldn't just march through the night once or twice to catch up?  Or toss aside your armor and jog?  Or 'conscript' a couple horses from a village along the way?   

I was a bit frustrated with the sparsity of content related to searching for your brother throughout the game.  First of all, the moment you even mention it at Lothering, Morrigan launches into this long-winded explanation for why it's ridiculous to spend ANY time looking for him.  Why does Morrigan care?  She's just tagging along b/c her mom made her.  She doesn't stop to protest how ridiculous it is to be spending time doing chantry board quests.  She sometimes thinks less of you for being overly "good", but never actually STOPS you.  So why should she care if you spend a couple days looking for your brother, who after all could be a valuable ally?  And as "the leader", you can't override her?  You get the final call on everything else, why not that?

Secondly, even if you buy her argument, why should that stop you from asking about him around Lothering?  In fact, that is essentially what she was telling you to do - look for him in one of the villages leading out of the wilds.  Yet in all the dialogue options you get in Lothering, not once can you ask about him. 

I can overlook not being able to actually search around the wilds for him, that IS actually a dumb idea, and it could involve a lot of extra content - of course, they could've kept it simple and just thrown some ridiculously impossible battle at you from the get-go, forcing you to flee and rethink the whole search idea, but whatever.  But even more simple than that, they could have at least added a line of dialogue to a few key characters in Lothering, and perhaps a few other areas, where you could ask about Fergus, and they'd say "sorry, haven't seen him".  That would make role-playing a Cousland a little smoother for me.

[MKATAKM]

DPSSOC wrote...
His experience would also make him better qualified to run the Castle than the PC.  I can buy that Fergus is probably the better soldier but he's also the one who would have been instructed on how to be teryn his whole life, the PC has not....

Yes, he is better qualified to run the castle, however it is not risky either. Going to war without the required experience can be really fatal, as you have seen in the case of the King Cailan. The PC's father loves both his sons, and trying to save the most. Even if something happens to his elder son, there would still be the younger one, and though he is young, he is not a child either. A short while later he starts killing dragons
Plus, I don't think the father would instruct only one of his sons on how to run a castle. That would not be logical, since any one of them can die in the future due to some reason. When you backup your data, do you think the backup is less important? Furthermore, we are talking about his other son, not a mere backup.

Modifié par MKATAKM, 17 décembre 2009 - 10:41 .

[cglasgow]

Yes, the second son would be given at least some of the same education of the first son -- the "heir and the spare" is a common noble saying. Your function being to replace Fergus if he doesn't live, you'd get trained in rulership too.



And heir or not Fergus has to go war sometime, to earn enough warrior cred to keep the respect of the Cousland's vassals. (The same applies to you, but there is an obvious reason that Father won't send you and Fergus to the same battlefield, and another obvious reason why Fergus gets to go first.)

[Dark83]

geoffsbg wrote...

That's a good point.  When you get to Ostagar, the King tells you that your brother's forces just arrived the day before.  Or was it even that morning?  I forget.  Either way, that means that during the entire journey they maintained their 1/2-1 day lead on you, suggesting that you were going about the same speed.  Which does make you wonder why the heck you couldn't just march through the night once or twice to catch up?  Or toss aside your armor and jog?  Or 'conscript' a couple horses from a village along the way?   

You're with Duncan as your guide, who is in no particular hurry to catch up. Further, a marching army with proper logistics will essentially have their equipment to the side. You have to carry your non-combat items - they don't. Historically, their heavier weapons (2 handed swords, polearms, and the like) are all on wagons. It'd also be the height of stupidity to drop your armor and weapons when escaping from an army after your head.

She doesn't stop to protest how ridiculous it is to be spending time doing chantry board quests.

Probably because she isn't being stupid, for once. The chantry board is essentially a job listing. "Kill three bears, get three gold." If she ever bothered you about it, the proper response should be "We're broke you stupid ****."

[geoffsbg]

Dark83 wrote...

You're with Duncan as your guide, who is in no particular hurry to catch up. Further, a marching army with proper logistics will essentially have their equipment to the side. You have to carry your non-combat items - they don't. Historically, their heavier weapons (2 handed swords, polearms, and the like) are all on wagons. It'd also be the height of stupidity to drop your armor and weapons when escaping from an army after your head.

She doesn't stop to protest how ridiculous it is to be spending time doing chantry board quests.

Probably because she isn't being stupid, for once. The chantry board is essentially a job listing. "Kill three bears, get three gold." If she ever bothered you about it, the proper response should be "We're broke you stupid ****."

As far as Duncan setting the pace... why would he be opposed to moving more quickly?  There's absolutely nothing lost by moving fast, and it would make his new recruit happy.  Getting to Ostagar sooner to help with the preparation, get started with the joining, etc, can only be a good thing for Duncan.  When you arrive, he seems pretty hurried to me.

As far as the whole wagon thing goes.  Wagons help an army to not become exhausted before getting to the battlefield, they don't make the army somehow faster than other people traveling w/o wagons.  Further, regardless of 'proper logistics', armies tend to be slower than small bands.  Their speed will be limited by the slowest person in the army - and any decent sized army is going to have plenty of footmen, people overweight, out of shape, etc, especially when you consider that they tend to have non-combat personnel (cooks, quartermasters, physicians, priests, etc). 

Also, how is it 'the height of stupidity' to cast aside a heavy suit of armor so that you can catch up to allies that are just ahead of you?  You're NOT being pursued by Howe's men.  Even if you were that's even MORE reason to want to move quickly.  I would say that it's the height of stupidity to cling to a heavy suit of splintmail while an army continues to gain on you.  If they caught you, your armor isn't going to make a difference.  Your only hope is speed.  And I didn't say cast aside your weapons.  

Finally, as far as Morrigan goes.  The point to any earlier post of mine was that as a Cousland, you SHOULD NOT be broke.  But my point here was that If Morrigan, an apostate, doesn't mind that you run errands for THE CHANTRY, she shouldn't mind if you ask around town if anyone has seen Fergus.

[Arijharn]

I actually expected to be able to talk to someone in Lothering about my brother as well since that was essentially what Morrigan suggested. Alternatively, I thought I'd be able to get a whisper about his status at least from the Dalish camp in the forest in case Fergus could exfiltrate the area that way.

[DPSSOC]

MKATAKM wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
His experience would also make him better qualified to run the Castle than the PC.  I can buy that Fergus is probably the better soldier but he's also the one who would have been instructed on how to be teryn his whole life, the PC has not....

Yes, he is better qualified to run the castle, however it is not risky either. Going to war without the required experience can be really fatal, as you have seen in the case of the King Cailan. The PC's father loves both his sons, and trying to save the most. Even if something happens to his elder son, there would still be the younger one, and though he is young, he is not a child either. A short while later he starts killing dragons

We're not talking about the same child.  My argument was that if both Bryce and Fergus die the position of Teryn would follow the likely line of succession Bryce -> Fergus -> Oren.  On further reflection though it may fall to the Teryna and she would appoint a new successor to take over when she kicks the bucket. 

MKATAKM wrote...

Plus, I don't think the father would instruct only one of his sons on how to run a castle. That would not be logical, since any one of them can die in the future due to some reason. When you backup your data, do you think the backup is less important? Furthermore, we are talking about his other son, not a mere backup.

You're an only child aren't you (j/k).

[cglasgow]

The order of succession would depend on who predeceases who, no? If Fergus dies before Bryce, you become Teryn and it shifts to your heirs after you die (if you had any heirs, which you don't, so it goes to your nephew anyway). But if Bryce dies before Fergus, then Oren gets it next because his father inherited the terynship before him (however briefly) and you were never in the seat at all.

Modifié par cglasgow, 19 décembre 2009 - 03:29 .

[Ulicus]

According to Darrien, it's not the case that "firstborn son = no 1. heir". If you say, "Lets talk about me, I like that topic" he tells you that everyone expects you to become Teyrn over your brother when your father dies.

If it operated as the English monarchy does, then it wouldn't matter if Fergus died before Bryce: Oren would precede your character in the order of succession. If Prince Charles died tomorrow, Prince William would be Heir Apparant, not Prince Andrew (Charles' brother).

Modifié par Ulicus, 19 décembre 2009 - 06:59 .

[Arijharn]

Ulicus wrote...

According to Darrien, it's not the case that "firstborn son = no 1. heir". If you say, "Lets talk about me, I like that topic" he tells you that everyone expects you to become Teyrn over your brother when your father dies.

Iona says pretty much the same thing IIRC. I'm pretty sure this was discussed on page 2