67 réponses à ce sujet

[Steel Majere343]

I noticed that it almost seems like the way the developers intended stat upgrading and the way people upgrade their characters almost seem...  off.
     what i mean is that take tanks for example, most people upgrade their tanks to have really high dextarity and strength while putting little into constitution. doesnt that seem...backwords?. I think what was actually intended was to invest more points into strength and constitution.

it seems like all the classes have two major stats that they were intended to "focus" on. rogues being dex and cun, mage being willpower and magic, warrior being strength and constitution.

but then you have specializations like templar, where holy smite actually relies on a high willpower to stun or knockdown. so maybe sometimes putting points into willpower?

but it seems like rogues were ment to focus on cunning and dextarity with a little bit into strength?.

most people iv asked say strength and dextarity is the way to go for warriors. theres a lot of hate for constitution because it only gives 5 health per point, BUT, does dextarity really do much more? even with a high dextarity chances are you will still get hit by the majority of attacks right?.

and 20 pts into constitution is an extra hundred health. some people say thats nothing (me being one of them alil while back) but look at your warriors current health, then tack on a hundred pts, it makes a diffrence.
so now im not exactly sure how to upgrade. iv been making my tanks mostly dextarity and strength but iv been watching the battles more closely and i notice he still gets hit a fair amount, so its not like hes some godly warrior with shield, and its been making me think just how much easier would the game be if i upgraded constitution?

thoughts?

[Tonya777]

actually no , high dex you don't really get hit ever



My templar has like 50 DEX at lvl 21 and he never really got hit by anything , and when he did it barely hurt him at all because of the massive armor

[Steel Majere343]

so you do think warriors were meant for a higher dextarity?

Modifié par Steel Majere343, 14 décembre 2009 - 04:30 .

[Steel Majere343]

it just seems wierd to me. it seems like tanks should have a lot of health, which mine has maybe 50 or so more then my rogue. has anyone tried rapidly upgrading constitution for a warrior? and if so, does it work?

[Inarai]

You know what seems backwards?



A warrior, ANY warrior, not to bother training in the very important principle of "Don't get hit". Not getting hit will ALWAYS be better than getting hit.

[Steel Majere343]

what seems backwords is a warrior, ANY warrior, not being able to take a hit.



and yes not getting hit would be better but its a percentage chance and not all damage goes through a hit or miss check (I.E. magic).



rogues should be the ones able to dodge, they are rogues, quick, nimble.



a warrior in massive armor should not be able to dodge that well but this is getting off topic.

im just saying i think that the class itself wasnt meant to be givin a thousand dextarity points, i think the warrior class was meant to be given a lot of constitution.



but at the same time loghain (if you choose to spare him) doesnt have a high constitution either...its difficult to say what stats DA:O prescribes for what class.



i wonder if i just did a test run and hit auto level if that would give me a good idea of what is expected.

[Danakir]

It's simple maths.



0 damage out of 300HP will always be less than 10 damage out of 500HP, you just can't beat that.



So actually it is better to never get hit.



Funny that eh?

[Steel Majere343]

but it doesnt always work like that lol. you will still get hit, and when you do, from magic or just a poor gamble on the percent chances, it hurts.



i found a topic like this a little earlier but its long dead and i dont want to revive it.



basically is a dex tank better than a constitution tank?



con seems harder to heal but at the same time whats better. having 150 health out of 500 and taking forever to heal it all or being dead already because you had like 300 health?.



dex doesnt really kick in as being awsome until you reach the really high numbers. im still level 10 and i can say, even with focusing almost every point into dex thus far, i still get hit either half or a little over half of the time.



i suppose you could try to balance all three stats STR/DEX/CON but then i think youd end up with a tank that more sucks at everything then one who excels using one thing.



some people say that they have made high con warriors who have never died, but then you get the same claims from everybody on these boards. Everyone has a character who never needs healing potions and is awsome in every way lol.



but if logain is any indication of what the game expects by an end game tank then id say the game expects a higher dextarity, but at the same time the games ideals on character progress seem a little scewed when you look at the auto level system, with auto leveling it just throws points around.



some of em land on willpower, then a small amount of con, then some magic even.

[Danakir]

Look, it's your preference and it'll make a *perfectly* workable tank, and we're not arguing with you on that. Or at least I'm not.



But when it comes right down to it, not getting hit is just plain better. Yes, a blink tank is not necessarily what you may picture in your head as the 'best' tank and arguably the survability is not as good, however the truth of the matter is that with massive armor and the sword and shield trees, you'll take little enough damage as is from any strike that the few strikes you will have to endure will be utterly negligible.



It's optimized. It's the best build, arguably.



It's not the only build and it's not even close to being the only viable build.



Keep in mind that even with very low Con, you can still have really really high Armor. That makes all the difference.

[SfHell]

I see where you are comming from, but like Danakir said, game wise, in the playing, the constitution concept is terrible. As an example just take Shale, I never used him until *spoilers* to his history quest end *spoilers*. His constituion was sky high had like 400 HP. But the damn guy can't wear an armor and bows just wrecked him even in the defense mode.

I'd take my 10 con Alistair any day.



This is playing on nightmare, I believe on easier levels the const concept may be effective

Plus if you put no dex, how the hell will you hit enemies? I had dex 32 and precision strike and sometimes I'd get a miss. Only with 42 dex the whiffing ended.

[1xs3thx1]

Steel Majere343 wrote...



rogues should be the ones able to dodge, they are rogues, quick, nimble.

a warrior in massive armor should not be able to dodge that well but this is getting off topic.

The entire point (In my opinion) of a Rogue is not to be in the line of fire in the first place.

In England when training Knights they used to train them to avoid the blow if possible, and if they couldn't avoid it, to attempt to block it or launch a counter-strike. If they could do none of those things they merely took the blow and kept on fighting if possible.

But the point is that Rogues are in the fight to shoot from a distance or to stick a poisoned blade in the back of their enemy, not to be having a sword fight a Hurlock Alpha.

If you are using Rogues to fight enemies face to face then you certainly have an odd tactical battle plan.

It is more realistic for a warrior to be able to dodge a blow than to be able to get hit X times and not get mortally wounded.

It is not very realistic for there to even be a constitution skill, in reality it is very hard for people to train to be able to take more hits from a Mace than they could before, usually because the pain just becomes unbearable.

Therefore it is infintely better (and more realistic) for a warrior to put points into dexterity (which is the equivilant of real world attack maneuvering) than it is to put points into constitution and almost magically be able to take X more hits than before.

Please enjoy the game.

Modifié par 1xs3thx1, 14 décembre 2009 - 06:11 .

[Steel Majere343]

im not really trying to argue..lol.



im just wondering which is truly better given all the facts.



if there was a way to effectively build both of them that would be optimal...buti dont think ud build them both fast enough to be really effective you know what i mean?.



hmm.

[h0tr0d]

No, I am with the original poster. A 'Tank" doesn't employ float like a butterfly, sting like a bee. "tanks" have heavy armor and absorb punishment. Think of what a tank actually is, where we get the term from. Str and stamina, or constitution. He isn't arguing more hp is better then high dex, he is saying a heavily armored tank isn't or shouldn't be nimble. That is more a rogue , or ranger, or light armor wearing class.

You don't wear full plate and dodge blows, the armor is meant to absorb, not evade.

He is dead on, it IS kind of backwards. A warrior can still be high dex if you like that, as a dual wielding light-med armor wearer.. but I agree that a "tank", wearing massive armor, should be absorbing punishment, not evading it. Perhaps -dex mods on heavier armors would help.

So while dex is better in this game to choose, maybe it shouldn't be, he says for the 'tank' class.

Gee let me wear hundreds of pounds of steel and dance around... not.

Modifié par h0tr0d, 14 décembre 2009 - 06:21 .

[Danakir]

I see what you're saying, but Constitution just doesn't give enough benefits per point compared to Dexterity to be worth it if you're looking it from a purely mathematical standpoint.

Optimization is a harsh barometer like that.

On the flip side, there's certainly something to be said for immediate usability, but then I'd argue that putting points into Strength early to put on some of that massive armor is a much better investment.

See what I'm trying to say? Armor allows you to neglect Con in favor of getting a better Attack and Defense rating. If memory serve, it also gives Physical Resistance. Which means that not only does it do what Con does, but it raise it'S measly five hit points with a plethora of benefits.

(Even more so if you're using piercing weapons and/or are ranged, but that's beside the point for a tank...)

Edit: Actually, you wear full plate in the unfortunate event that you DO get hit, all the while doing your damn best NOT to get hit. 

Modifié par Danakir, 14 décembre 2009 - 06:22 .

[DragoonKain3]

There will always be an 'optimal' build. It just so happens that DEX is superior to CON in this game because...

1) No cap to evasion rate, so its possible to evade everything that requires a hitroll

2) DEF bonus from DEX grows twice as fast as ATK bonus from STR/DEX

3) There are lots of abilities that affect DEF, but very few affect armor

4) DEX affects other things, including your ATK and your dagger/range damage as well

5) All CON gives is +5 hp, and nothing else

6) CON gives you better tanking against spells, but that can be entirely negated by either spell resistance gear or having a mage with mana clash/neutralization glyph

7) CON also gives better tanking to auto-hits, but considering Dragon grabs will most probably kill you regardless of hp or armor at Nightmare, this is a non-issue





Well, I'm just glad that more and more people are being aware that DEX is superior to CON. I remember early on when people were flabbergasted why DEX is superior, and they theorycraft why having CON is better without any in-game experience. So I'm just happy that the general consensus now is that DEX is the better stat to stack compared to CON, rather than the otherway around, so I don't have to defend this position as often as before. ^^;

[Stengahpolis]

A tank's job is to hold aggro and soak damage. Whether that's accomplished by having a huge health pool, or simply mitigating the incoming dps is irrelevant.

If your tank isn't getting hit, he's still turning all that damage away from the rest of your party but you don't have to waste as much mana or pots healing him.

[Tonya777]

what seems backwords is a warrior, ANY warrior, not being able to take a hit.

Thats the thing though , in this game the armor alone allows you to take a hit , many hits in fact

[Gliese]

Well think of it this way: The con is just a passive bonus, you're not any more effective fighting at 500 hp than you are fighting with 1 hp.

Every point of dex on the other hand is proactive because it not only gives you a defensive value but also increases your chance to hit the enemy.

[Steel Majere343]

intresting, very intresting.



yes hotrod did get my original question perfectly.



it seems wierd that tanks with high dextarity do so well.when i think the stereotypical "tank" character would be far more invested in a big health pool.



has anyone tried splitting the attributes? like putting just one point into each every level? i wonderhow that would work..

[Wompoo]

Dexterity is the key... peasants armed with pikes waring linen armor can take down an army of heavy armor wearing soldiers. Point being, better to be able to avoid damage then try and soak it up. Put a plate wearing soldier on his back and he becomes a tortoise waiting for death.

[Garrand]

Dragon Age approaches tanking with a bit more of a realistic twist than most games, which is a good thing. It IS more effective to not get hit at all.



Really, I don't care how big and tough you look, if a spear pierces you through the chest, I'd expect at least a collapsed lung. Getting hit should hurt, and the emphasis should be on not getting hit, from a realism perspective.



*Dragons/spells/different races mean no realism yadda yadda* - of course the game is absurd with these concepts, but there is such a thing as canonical realism. LotR and Star Wars are equally absurd with regard to reality, but it still doesn't make sense to see a lightsaber being wielded by Frodo, or an other-worldly eye that actually represents a god in Star Wars. Both worlds have their own rules.



DA has just taken a more realistic approach to one set of rules.

[Garrand]

h0tr0d wrote...
 A 'Tank" doesn't employ float like a butterfly, sting like a bee.

The M1A1 Abrams would like to have a word with you

[adembroski11]

I see both sides of it. Personally, I think there should be a greater penalty to your chance to get hit for wearing heavy armor. I don't care how quick you are, if you're in a massive suit of full plate, I'm going to make contact... it's just that that suit is going to prevent the majority of damage.



No RPG system, tabletop or video gaming, has gotten it right, I think. Anyone in full plate, regardless of dexterity, should be a sitting duck for contact, but the vast... and I mean VAST... majority of hits should result in little to no damage.



Also, a greater defensive value should go into things like shields and weapons. A longsword, for example, it an outstanding balanced weapon, where as a hand axe has almost no defensive value whatsoever. This is the first game to really illustrate the offensive value of a shield, but in reality, full plate rendered shields virtually obsolete. A shield should be pretty much overkill defensively for a character in full plate.



A complete revision of weapon and armor stats could do much to rectify all of this. Adding a significant dex penalty to heavy and massive armors, but also giving them much bigger damage reductions, as well as giving weapons defensive modifiers, would help a lot. The trouble is taking into account the usefulness of blunt weapons against full plate without making them overpowered in that system.

[grymstone]

I dunno I don't mind the way the system is set up there are some oversites I think. I look at it this way this is the first game in what i hope to be an epic franchise and there is going to be evolution and what this system lacks in certain aspects it makes up for with open endedness and the ability for devs to continue to refine it over the years.I feel like what were are seeing here is a very basic version of a combat system that will evolve into something truly great in the future.



There are some pros to it in it's current form.

1. simplistic. Simple is good a little more tool tip info for each stat and talent would be great though.

2. scales good with stats though perhaps dex is to good and con and will are fairly weak BUT that is something that can fine tuned and overhauled. What if con carried a much bigger bonus to physical resist perhaps 1/point instead of only .5 doubling this would make it a decent stat for a pure tank. You could do the same thing with will and mental resist bonus helping with stuns. Giving con and will a small bonus to mana/stam regen would also be nice. Nothing major but .1 or .2/ point would be very cool.

[Steel Majere343]

so, im looking on the wiki and they actually have quotes from bioware stating that they "believe" tanks should focus primarily on constitution and strength and that dextarity is important for some abilities but should not be a focus.its on the wiki under tips if you want to check it out.i think i will try it this way then since thats clearly how it was intended. they state that each class is supposed to provide pivotal roles to the group. and if they are all doing their part each battle is more then doable apparently. The game is supposed to be played with at least one of each class as they rely on each other to do their jobs.
Rogues are supposed to dish the damage, warriors are supposed to keep the attention off of the rogues to keep them dishing damage and mages are basically warrior back-ups, there to keep the "tank" alive. Mages are there to do whatever it takes to ensure the warrior stays able to take damage, just as the warrior should do whatever it takes to keep the hate from the rogue.
this could include stunning multiple enemies, buffing the tank, or helping the rogue deal damage. Mages are advised to experiment with all of the four "schools" of magic as each one provides a vital essance to a group, primal is the meaty damage essance, creation is the buffing essance, spirit is the more debuffing essance, and entropy is the controlling essance, each of these schools have their own ways of buffing, debuffing, damage, and controle as well. All of these are necessary however, a mage should have access to all of these abilities fairly quickly. Without the ability to control the battlefield you will quickly be outmanned by the enemies that await you, a tank is NOT meant to go in headstrong and take on a horde of enemies at the same time, no matter their health or defense.

it was intended that mages would use some of the many diffrent kinds of stuns we've provided in each school to control a horde so that a tank was not being pummled by many enemies.

this was said by a bioware employee in an interview concerning the games party mechanics.

also, if your intrested to know how healing was meant in the game here is what was said;

"There is no dedicated "healer" in our game. Healing is also part of a mage's job. Healing comes in two forms in Dragon Age: Origins. One being the classic healing spell, which is a first tier spell to encourage accessibility. The second option is for someone (presumably the mage, as that is the reason they come with this skill) to use herbalism to make their "heals" before the battle. 
      There are two areas (both immediately accessable upon leaving the beginning stages to choose your destination) where we, literally, give the player these healing methods in full potency. We give them the ability to buy all the tools for herbalism and a full fledged spirit healer, the player may choose to accept these gifts of course.
     It is for this reason that we encourage players to explore our world. If the player decides to follow the trail without exploring these places they will miss out on the full power of both of these healing options. The player should still be able to manage but it will be tough going until at least one of these options are employed.
     Through certain choices both of these "gifts" can be destroyed. Whether that means you have turned down the spirit healer or you have destroyed your access to the potion making rescources. 
     Though both of these gifts are great ways to heal your party, they are not mandatory, nor is the game balanced to make them seem mandatory. A player with an average understanding of party mecanics and a healthy mix of damage, buffing, and stun spells along with the heal spell we've provided is sufficient. One does not "need" a spirit healer, we've provided enough stunning spells and abilities that only the one healing spell will due should you not want a spirit healer and make certain decisions to hinder your herbalism abilities."

so there we have it i suppose.

Modifié par Steel Majere343, 14 décembre 2009 - 09:16 .