67 réponses à ce sujet

[Faerell Gustani]

If you want to talk real world fighting, I'll say that armor was very binary. Either your armor was superior to your opponent's weaponry and you were virtually invincible to them and succeptable only to being overwhelmed and knocked to the ground and restrained...before a sharp pointy thing was shoved in the weakspot of your armor (visor, neck, or armpits). As someone who practices various forms of weapon based combat, the best policy is to just not get hit, so a warrior who focuses on avoidance is a more likely than the idea that someone can take a sword wound and continue fighting.
Your priority for defenses are as follows:
Counter attack, avoid/dodge, parry, block with shield/weapon, rely on armor.

Normally the stories of the super tough warrior who takes a hit and keeps on fighting involves that warrior dying afterward due to wounds...or otherwise being rendered incapable of fighting in the future.

If you want to talk game mechanics, others have spelled it out already. Avoidance is the superior policy as it scales better with HP and damage soak. Armor penetration scales rapidly in this game as well.

Modifié par Faerell Gustani, 14 décembre 2009 - 09:21 .

[KariTR]

I'm no min/max player so I don't have set plans/numbers prior to playing, I just look at starting stats and take the devs lead initially. First playthrough Alistair was STR based with CON and WILL secondary. Second playthrough, I went more my own instincts and made CON his base stat. Third playthrough, having read the DEX build threads, I decided to go that route.



Bearing in mind I use SS and he is my main tank, the CON built Alistair was head and shoulders above the other builds. CON doesnt only count toward HP it also gives the character the ability to resist being knocked-down (eventually 100% of the time) and DEX isnt gonna help you swallow that all-important poultice when youre on the floor being overwhelmed. And contrary to what another poster wrote, CON will allow your tank to survive being grabbed by a High Dragon.



Playstyle will take preference at the end of the day and I prefer a tank who can stay upright and soak the damage right up.

[grymstone]

That would be great if mage cc was not so good and arcane warriors were not so tough. Right now mages can control the feild and be harder to kill than any other clas sin the game and with blood magic up they can do it at the same time.

[Asugai2]

I played with shale as a tank where I totaly maximized his constitution. I put just enough strength for him to be able to wear brilliant crystals, and gave him both the natural ones. His HP ended up with around 500 but he was not as good as I thought he would be, because of the lowish armor, which was 26 with Stoneheart.



IMO, the best tank would be a dwarf with S&S. I am aware of the dex advantages, andt with Shield Wall and best items in game this kind of character will have over 50 in armor rating, with decent defense because of the 26 dexterity rating for Shield Mastery + bonus from items, Circle of Magi quest.



I put just a few points in Con just to round up the numbers. Let's say you start with that Dwarf warrior. That is a starting Con of 15. +4 from the Magi quest, + 6 from the set of Helm of Honnleath, Keys of the City and Andruil's Blessing, and +10 from the Lifegiver, that is 20 additional Constitution from those bonuses. With those two tomes that grant +1 in attribute, and one level spent on Con upgrade, you will end up with 40 Constitution which is more than enough.



Also with Howe's shield and Rally that is +22 defense. Ending up with 40 dexterity/Con and those items which give you decent defense for some dodging, the rest of the hits would be soaked up by skyhigh armor rating and big health pool.

[Inarai]

Steel Majere343 wrote...

what seems backwords is a warrior, ANY warrior, not being able to take a hit.

and yes not getting hit would be better but its a percentage chance and not all damage goes through a hit or miss check (I.E. magic).

rogues should be the ones able to dodge, they are rogues, quick, nimble.

a warrior in massive armor should not be able to dodge that well but this is getting off topic.
im just saying i think that the class itself wasnt meant to be givin a thousand dextarity points, i think the warrior class was meant to be given a lot of constitution.

but at the same time loghain (if you choose to spare him) doesnt have a high constitution either...its difficult to say what stats DA:O prescribes for what class.

i wonder if i just did a test run and hit auto level if that would give me a good idea of what is expected.

DA:O's warriors have a somewhat realistic "spread".  Obviously they need to keep themselves strong.  From there, it's a question of what's more useful to combat technique and survivial.  Mechanically, DEX does two things: Helps with avoidance, and with accuracy.  The latter is obviously important.  The former is always a higher priority.  Look at this realistically: All it takes to kill a person is one well-placed shot - and there is nothing that would change that in all reality.  People don't keep fighting with their intestines hanging out.

As for heavier and heavier armour, it slows you're movement down, but it's not like you're gonna be some lethargic slob.

[Gecon]

adembroski11 wrote...

No RPG system, tabletop or video gaming, has gotten it right, I think. Anyone in full plate, regardless of dexterity, should be a sitting duck for contact, but the vast... and I mean VAST... majority of hits should result in little to no damage.

Bah. Thats the typical idiotical prejudice about mediveal armor and weapons. They would be slow and heavy and ineffective.

This has nothing to do with reality. A full set of gothic or maximillian armor weights between 20 and 30 kg. That is less weight than what a modern soldier carries. And its in a tailor made suit and distributed over your whole body. Plus of course you are trained for battle since childhood and have more than enough strength to run, jump, swim or sommersault in this equipment.

At in the 16. century, when grooved harnesses where invented, these types of armor was so good it could even be used for tournaments, while still light enough for the battlefield. Tournaments where usually done in more massive armor, about twice as heavy as battle armor, to assert that the knight couldnt die or end up crippled in this sportive event. A type of armor that sometimes survived and nowadays fuels the idea that knights where slow. However, no knight ever had the idea of fighting in this equipment, simply because it was too heavy for real battle and unlike the myth, a knight had to perform well in battle even against unarmored, quick opponents.

[Selvec_Darkon]

2H user's benefit from high Willpower big time, espically since the skill animations are much faster, and they have no sheild.



My 2H had 40 Willpower 42 Strength and 25 Constitution at end game. Dex wasn't even worth mentioning. He hit most everything. People also use armor wrong I believe. Massive Armor for example is meant to be used by the tank, however, not so much by a 2h or duel weild user. As the heavier the armor, the more likely the enemy is to focus on you. So if you have medium armor on a 2H user, he's less likely to be attacked then the tank wearing massive armor, allowing him to flank and use skills on mages and such without being attacked constantly.

[RowanZwei]

I think a good quick fix for the uselessness of constitution would be to make it the required stat for armors, instead of strength. Maybe tone the requirements down a bit with 32 CON needed to wear Juggernaut plate.

[cdotzler]

RowanZwei wrote...

I think a good quick fix for the uselessness of constitution would be to make it the required stat for armors, instead of strength. Maybe tone the requirements down a bit with 32 CON needed to wear Juggernaut plate.

So the fix for the issue that constitution is weaker than dexterity is to force players to use constitution?
Why not decrease the penalty from Armor.
Or at least add increase the healt regeneration in combat.

[RowanZwei]

cdotzler wrote...

RowanZwei wrote...

I think a good quick fix for the uselessness of constitution would be to make it the required stat for armors, instead of strength. Maybe tone the requirements down a bit with 32 CON needed to wear Juggernaut plate.

So the fix for the issue that constitution is weaker than dexterity is to force players to use constitution?
Why not decrease the penalty from Armor.
Or at least add increase the healt regeneration in combat.

Yes, the same way rogues are forced to take STR to wear armor. It's all about choices. If you needed high CON to wear massive armor you would have to make a choice between pumping strength for huge damage or pumping CON to be a tank. As it is there's no tradeoff, or it is between STR/damage and DEX/defense.

Improved health regen for CON would be nice too, or maybe reduced fatigue for every x points?

BTW. Shale requires CON to use the large (armor) crystals...

[Pimpmyvanagon]

It's a result of having a game system where there is no penalty to Dexterity for wearing armor.

[Siven80]

The problem with the whole Dex vs Con is that Dex as a stat is overpowered. It gives too much "bang for the buck" as they say.



The fact that dex gives a whole 1 Defense per point whereas attack rating is split between Str and Dex just strikes me as too much, especially when you take into account Dex also gives attack and physical resistance. When compared to Con yes Dex is a much better stat.

But if Defense was split between 2 stats like Attack rating, you'd expect it to be split with Con...yet that would make Con OP instead. hmm.

Maybe if Con gave more to physical resistance, or maybe to all resistances it would be worth more, but right now Dex is just too good to pass up.



Making Con give more HP per point i think wont work. Mid-late game theres plenty of items with +allstats and +con and this would break the balance of the game imo.

[RobotXYZ]

I think con should give you a minor in combat regeneration.  Or alternatively just more HP/pt and more healing/health poultice.

[JaegerBane]

Stengahpolis wrote...

A tank's job is to hold aggro and soak damage. Whether that's accomplished by having a huge health pool, or simply mitigating the incoming dps is irrelevant.
If your tank isn't getting hit, he's still turning all that damage away from the rest of your party but you don't have to waste as much mana or pots healing him.

Well said. I think some people tend to get a bit attached to arbitrary definitions and forget what the point behind the role is.

[XOGHunter246]

con gives physical resistants but it better to have dex for less hit. I know what your saying the devs intended tanks to focus on con and strength hence why con give physical resistant But we know better then to do that lol.

[Edelwolf]

I suppose you could abuse a high CON tank with your blood mage.

[LightSabres]

Considering the number of mobs in the game that knock you over or pick you up to thrash you (Mabari, Bears, Ogres, etc) Con is a useful stat. It's just not that game breaking as a well placed CoC or Winters Grasp will break the grip the enemy has on you.

[fkirenicus]

Inarai wrote...

You know what seems backwards?

A warrior, ANY warrior, not to bother training in the very important principle of "Don't get hit". Not getting hit will ALWAYS be better than getting hit.

Like Mr Nesbitt who has learnt the first principle of how not to be seen - not standing up?

Modifié par fkirenicus, 14 décembre 2009 - 08:42 .

[Steel Majere343]

well as i stated before it was intended players focus on constitution for warriors. that was taken right from an interview.



Dex just happens to be successfull. People in beta probly never tried putting an absurd amount of points into that field for warriors so it probly never came up.

[Dolomite808]

Pimpmyvanagon wrote...

It's a result of having a game system where there is no penalty to Dexterity for wearing armor.

Pretty much this.  This is one of the first games I've ever played where heavy armor did not carry either a penalty to dex, or at least, a maximum effective dex value.  

[Archfiend]

the main reason i think is there is very little spike damage. there are things in mmos that will hit you and will kill you without enough health. there is nothing like that in DA that you cannot prevent, the "insta-kills" take a few secs and are stoppable, so why invest in hps when dex serves you better 99% of the time and the other 1% you can diminish or prevent?

[DragoonKain3]

Bioware also said that DW rogues should focus on STR, when CUN offers the most damage in reality. They also said to put some points into WIL for spellslinging mage, and we all know how much of a waste of a point THAT is.



Either they don't think outside of the box (developers tend to be that way with their own games) or that they aren't powergamers (or even if they are, they don't balance the game around tricked out party members). More probably the latter.



In anycase, don't trust the developer to spoonfeed you the optimal way to play and build your class (or in RTS games, your race). Often times, they are wrong.

[Steel Majere343]

actually iv found willpower to not be that much of a wast. i upgrade it all the time with mages and i do notice the diffrence.



while you shouldnt allow them to "spoon feed" you your choices they are also the only ones who know what the game was built around. The game was built around a warrior investing high constitution.



whether or not they overlooked dextarity, the game was not balanced for that.



although through my own personal experience iv had better luck with a constitution warrior.



iv gotn dextarity up to 50 before with my warrior and its a huge gamble. when i fought logain with a constitution warrior i had to chug potions a lot more, due to being squishy-er. with constitution i had a huge health pool. he barely did any damage at all, whereas with dextarity sometimes hed miss yes but when he hit me it would take like a good 10% of my health all at once.

[tetracycloide]

I played with shale as a tank where I totaly maximized his constitution. I put just enough strength for him to be able to wear brilliant crystals, and gave him both the natural ones. His HP ended up with around 500 but he was not as good as I thought he would be, because of the lowish armor, which was 26 with Stoneheart.

That can't be right.  I have shale tank speced pumping con and he's only got clear crystals (level 16) and his armor is already 30 with stoneheart.  You must have done something wrong, my guess would be that stoneheart wasn't actually active or that the other talents in the stoneheart line weren't taken, to end up with 26.  All four of the stoneheart talents contribute to the bonuses of the mode, you must take all of them to be an effective tank.

[Steel Majere343]

i was just about to say something like that lol. Shale has had the highest armor rating iv ever seen on a character...so idk why your shale doesnt but mine was well into the 30s by end game, i think it might have gotn close to 40 even using proper crystals etc.



shes arguably the best tank in the game with her regeneration abilities and whatnot. Arguably of course.