346 réponses à ce sujet

[Ownedbacon]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Ownedbacon wrote...

There were other ways the series could have gone to resolve itself. Reapers could have just been beings "ascending" other species without the whole created/creator synthetics vs. organics crap, which was a small part of the whole story.

They could have been many different things, yes, both better and worse. That what they were wasn't planned in advance is the weakness of the prior establishments.

The Catalyst character and the Reapers being enslaved to the cycle are things that were not present in the previous installments.

It's not actually prevented either, given the unclear nature of the influence of the Catalyst and the unclear nature of Reaper autonomy vis-a-vis independence. There's actually more of a jump between ME1 and ME2 about the Reapers (the species-gestalt nature) than there is from ME2 to ME3. As soon as we saw the unwilling-creation process of the Reapers, Sovereign's 'we are each independent' was pretty blantantly going to be less than free-will on the part of the created Reapers.

These additions retconned the Reapers and ruined them as antagonists. What happened to Harbinger?

He flew over to the galaxy and fought in a war that doesn't revolve around him.

The Reapers were shown as more in control and the masterminds behind this cycle in ME1. In ME2 they still maintained this control although we saw how they are created  Legion states Transcended flesh. Billions of
organic minds, uploaded and conjoined within immortal machine bodies.
"Each a nation." The nation would be the Reaper itself is one being although made up of many minds.

My question about Harbinger is that a once established main antagonist in ME2 is shoved aside into a cameo only to shoot at Shepard. Harbinger was set up as the next biggest threat but was suddenly shifted into being a pawn.

[Ticonderoga117]

iakus wrote...

thisisme8 wrote...

Right, Shep is the one person who could do what no one else could:  End the cycle.  Defeating the reapers, however, was impossible from the beginning.

Only impossible because we weren't shown a way.  SOmething ME2 should have done.  Or at least hinted at.

Kill all the Reapers with your squad of ultimate badasses.

Modifié par Ticonderoga117, 24 juin 2012 - 10:58 .

[thisisme8]

Ownedbacon wrote...

With Geth Heretics being controlled by Reapers they were misled by the Reapers while the rest of the Geth weren't. Mass Effect while having that conflict, it wasn't the entire focus. The synthetic/organic conflict to have held more weight as the reason for the cycle had the Reapers not been controlling the Geth heretics. Had the Geth rebelled after becoming self aware and swept across the galaxy by their own will, this would have been more fitting to the ending we got. With the addition of Legion and the realization that the Reapers were:  "Transcended flesh. Billions of organic minds, uploaded and conjoined within immortal machine bodies. "Each a nation." This was more of organics fighting against its own possible evolution. Had they gone a similar backstory for the Reapers being organics who willfully "ascended" (as in the dark energy plot) it is in line with what  we learned about them in ME2.

The Synthetic vs. Organic plot was a constant in the ME universe.

The Quarian Geth conflict
The laws of AI and VI
Luna base
SR2 having EDI was a big deal
Legion and his whole story arc
Tali and her whole story arc
etc.

The games made a point to show both sides of the AI problem.

[Rogue Eagle]

I thought my game was glitched into action mode when they took away all the decisions for dialogue and shaping things.

[chemiclord]

Ownedbacon wrote...
My question about Harbinger is that a once established main antagonist in ME2 is shoved aside into a cameo only to shoot at Shepard. Harbinger was set up as the next biggest threat but was suddenly shifted into being a pawn.

Simply put, because fans claimed they hated Harbinger.

I mean, that's the real reason.

Did you expect George Lucas to make Jar-Jar Binks the primary antagonist of Episode II after all the hatred the character received?  Why would you expect Bioware to stick with Harbinger after all the venomous hate the character received after ME2?

[fchopin]

The Angry One wrote...

No outcome would be perfect. Whatever happens, the galaxy is devastated, billions are dead and societies changed forever.
An ending where the Reapers are truly defeated would not go against the theme of the story, it would be the logica conclusion.

Am i to understand that you agree that the destroy option is to your liking if the reapers are destroyed even if many millions of people died from all the different races?

[Ticonderoga117]

thisisme8 wrote...
The Synthetic vs. Organic plot was a constant in the ME universe.

The Quarian Geth conflict
The laws of AI and VI
Luna base
SR2 having EDI was a big deal
Legion and his whole story arc
Tali and her whole story arc
etc.

The games made a point to show both sides of the AI problem.

1. The Organics were the agressors. The Geth acted in self-defense, and won.
2. Important backstory to show that this cycle had safegaurds against your tradititional "Skynet" AI problem.
3. It was a VI that Cerberus turned into an AI. So no.
4. Yes, and it turned out well. Debunks Organics and Synthetics can't get along.
5. Again, debunked "ALL AI's R EVIL HURR DURR". They just want to be left alone and allow others to self-determinate.
6. Organics can be pricks.

[clarkusdarkus]

fchopin wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

No outcome would be perfect. Whatever happens, the galaxy is devastated, billions are dead and societies changed forever.
An ending where the Reapers are truly defeated would not go against the theme of the story, it would be the logica conclusion.

Am i to understand that you agree that the destroy option is to your liking if the reapers are destroyed even if many millions of people died from all the different races?

well it was a war so sacrifices and deaths go with that, but at least we would have defeated the reapers which was the plan for the 1st 2 games. 

[fchopin]

clarkusdarkus wrote...

fchopin wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

No outcome would be perfect. Whatever happens, the galaxy is devastated, billions are dead and societies changed forever.
An ending where the Reapers are truly defeated would not go against the theme of the story, it would be the logica conclusion.

Am i to understand that you agree that the destroy option is to your liking if the reapers are destroyed even if many millions of people died from all the different races?

well it was a war so sacrifices and deaths go with that, but at least we would have defeated the reapers which was the plan for the 1st 2 games. 

Thank you but i have no problem with the destroy ending, just wanted to know what The Angry One thinks.

[HomerIsLegend]

Whoever wrote the Vigil scene on Ilos in ME1 should have been the "guy" writing wise for the rest of the series... I'm guessing that it was probably Karpy.. it was the most poignant scene in the entire series in my opine and beautifully written/constructed.

[Ownedbacon]

chemiclord wrote...

Ownedbacon wrote...
My question about Harbinger is that a once established main antagonist in ME2 is shoved aside into a cameo only to shoot at Shepard. Harbinger was set up as the next biggest threat but was suddenly shifted into being a pawn.

Simply put, because fans claimed they hated Harbinger.

I mean, that's the real reason.

Did you expect George Lucas to make Jar-Jar Binks the primary antagonist of Episode II after all the hatred the character received?  Why would you expect Bioware to stick with Harbinger after all the venomous hate the character received after ME2?

Well comparing Harbinger to Jar-Jar Binks is a bit of  a stretch. Off-topic Jar-Jar was never an antagonist but was a minor protagonist in Star Wars. Anyways Harbinger could have just been toned back to a final conflict where he still maintained a presence and  not completely muted. He seemed more like a Darth Vader taunting Luke Skywalker in the end of Empire but with bad lines.

He was improved with The Arrival DLC. Had they not had him constantly talking to you through the Collectors he wouldn't be so hated.

(I'm sure Star Wars fans would have been pleased had a sith taken a few slices at Jar-Jar in Episode II or III. Maybe he was an antagonist in Star Wars having given Palpatine emergency powers.)

Modifié par Ownedbacon, 24 juin 2012 - 11:27 .

[thisisme8]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

thisisme8 wrote...
The Synthetic vs. Organic plot was a constant in the ME universe.

The Quarian Geth conflict
The laws of AI and VI
Luna base
SR2 having EDI was a big deal
Legion and his whole story arc
Tali and her whole story arc
etc.

The games made a point to show both sides of the AI problem.

1. The Organics were the agressors. The Geth acted in self-defense, and won.
2. Important backstory to show that this cycle had safegaurds against your tradititional "Skynet" AI problem.
3. It was a VI that Cerberus turned into an AI. So no.
4. Yes, and it turned out well. Debunks Organics and Synthetics can't get along.
5. Again, debunked "ALL AI's R EVIL HURR DURR". They just want to be left alone and allow others to self-determinate.
6. Organics can be pricks.

Exactly.  So Synthetics vs. Organics was still a major part of the story, all you proved is that our cycle was different.  So based on this, we were able to break free of the cycle, where others could not.

[Ticonderoga117]

thisisme8 wrote...
Exactly.  So Synthetics vs. Organics was still a major part of the story, all you proved is that our cycle was different.  So based on this, we were able to break free of the cycle, where others could not.

Thus I wouldn't say "versus". More like relations.

[The Angry One]

fchopin wrote...

clarkusdarkus wrote...

fchopin wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

No outcome would be perfect. Whatever happens, the galaxy is devastated, billions are dead and societies changed forever.
An ending where the Reapers are truly defeated would not go against the theme of the story, it would be the logica conclusion.

Am i to understand that you agree that the destroy option is to your liking if the reapers are destroyed even if many millions of people died from all the different races?

well it was a war so sacrifices and deaths go with that, but at least we would have defeated the reapers which was the plan for the 1st 2 games. 

Thank you but i have no problem with the destroy ending, just wanted to know what The Angry One thinks.

The destroy ending sacrifices the Geth, EDI and the mass relays for no good reason.
It still ends on the Catalyst's terms, by the Catalyst's will. So no, I don't like it.

A true victory would involve overcoming the Reapers and keeping my allies/galactic civilisation intact. Even if Shepard had to die.

[Ownedbacon]

thisisme8 wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

thisisme8 wrote...
The Synthetic vs. Organic plot was a constant in the ME universe.

The Quarian Geth conflict
The laws of AI and VI
Luna base
SR2 having EDI was a big deal
Legion and his whole story arc
Tali and her whole story arc
etc.

The games made a point to show both sides of the AI problem.

1. The Organics were the agressors. The Geth acted in self-defense, and won.
2. Important backstory to show that this cycle had safegaurds against your tradititional "Skynet" AI problem.
3. It was a VI that Cerberus turned into an AI. So no.
4. Yes, and it turned out well. Debunks Organics and Synthetics can't get along.
5. Again, debunked "ALL AI's R EVIL HURR DURR". They just want to be left alone and allow others to self-determinate.
6. Organics can be pricks.

Exactly.  So Synthetics vs. Organics was still a major part of the story, all you proved is that our cycle was different.  So based on this, we were able to break free of the cycle, where others could not.

The presence of synthetics vs. organics was no more important than organics vs. organics. The conflicts each race had with each other was just as prominent in Mass Effect as the synthetic vs. organics conflict. I don't deny that it was an important part, I just don't see it justified as the reason for the Reapers or the cycle.

Modifié par Ownedbacon, 24 juin 2012 - 11:38 .

[thisisme8]

The Angry One wrote...

The destroy ending sacrifices the Geth, EDI and the mass relays for no good reason.
It still ends on the Catalyst's terms, by the Catalyst's will. So no, I don't like it.

A true victory would involve overcoming the Reapers and keeping my allies/galactic civilisation intact. Even if Shepard had to die.

Here's where I always concede to poor writing.  I believe that the destruction of the relays and the citadel are important to truly being free of the cycle, but BioWare wrote itself into a hole with Arrival when they decided that destryoing a relay would also destroy the whole system.  To be honest, I don't think they inteded that to be a consequence at the end of ME3, which is why that will be a point I always chalk up to poor writing.

[Dean_the_Young]

Ownedbacon wrote...

The Reapers were shown as more in control and the masterminds behind this cycle in ME1.

Not really: the main belief in Reaper independence comes from Sovereign's 'each a nation', which was heavily loaded in non-literal metaphor in the first place and could have been developed in a number of directions. ME1 never developed the Reapers nature to any significant degree.

In ME2 they still maintained this control although we saw how they are created  Legion states Transcended flesh. Billions of organic minds, uploaded and conjoined within immortal machine bodies.
"Each a nation." The nation would be the Reaper itself is one being although made up of many minds.

And yet they all agree on the same thing, and work together towards a singular goal of reoccuring genocide, despite those transcended flesh-bags being ascended unwillingly in their own genocide.

That's not an implication of free will and indendence: that's a huge opening and lead-in towards coerced minds. Reapers are constructed, but that in no way implies they are constructed with free will and without enforced opinions. There could be no Catalyst and still be an element of 'genocidal arrogance built in' from the original Reaper design.

My question about Harbinger is that a once established main antagonist in ME2 is shoved aside into a cameo only to shoot at Shepard. Harbinger was set up as the next biggest threat but was suddenly shifted into being a pawn.

Harbinger wasn't set up as the next biggest threat: Harbinger was one among a Legion of Reapers. Harbinger's only uniqueness was the fact that Harbinger controlled the Collectors. That in no way implied Harbinger controlled the rest of the Reapers, any more than Sovereign's status of Vanguard did for it.

[playoff52]

This video echos all my thoughts ^.^

Modifié par playoff52, 24 juin 2012 - 11:58 .

[Dean_the_Young]

thisisme8 wrote...

The Synthetic vs. Organic plot was a constant in the ME universe.

The Quarian Geth conflict

Was a case of self-defense, which is an equally organic notion. The Geth and Quarian conflict was never because of fundamental differences leading to conflicts of interests, it was an exagerated self-defense that fizzled for a few centuries because of plot-induced stupidity of communication.

The laws of AI and VI

Was never a major theme of the series.

Luna base

Was (at the time) a malfunctioning non-sentient machine. That's no more a theme of fundamental differences than Shepard vs. the Slow Elevator.

SR2 having EDI was a big deal

This it was, but not only was it haphazard at best (being occassional), it was also one-sided from the organics and

Legion and his whole story arc

Not really, since most of Legion's arc is Geth vs Geth.

Tali and her whole story arc

Even less so. Tali's story arc is growing up to be a Big Girl from her father's shadow.

The games made a point to show both sides of the AI problem.

All the games show is that organics or Organic-Synthetic start fights with AIs, and that AIs fight for remarkably organic reasons.

[Dean_the_Young]

HomerIsLegend wrote...

Whoever wrote the Vigil scene on Ilos in ME1 should have been the "guy" writing wise for the rest of the series... I'm guessing that it was probably Karpy.. it was the most poignant scene in the entire series in my opine and beautifully written/constructed.

The holographic explanation-ex-machina who makes claims with no verifying proof and whose word Shepard trusts without question despite the galaxy being at stake?

What could possibly go wrong with that?

[GreenDragon37]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

thisisme8 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

thisisme8 wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

Because Mac Walter's decided that his artistic vision is more important than the players.

In storytelling, the writer's final vision is actually more important than the reader/player's.  If they wanted to come up with an ending to satisfy the players, they would have to create hundred's of different endings to satisfy all the different expectations from players around the world and that is not feasable.

Sorry it didn't go how you wanted it, but if it bugs you so much, then it's really just a matter of first world problems.  You'll be fine.

In a game based on player choice, player agency trumps the writer's "artistic statement".
The creators of Dragon Age understood this.

Just because you liked the Dragon Age ending doesn't change the fact that there was a limited amount of choice that was allowed.  At some point in the game, they had to begin to remove freedom from the player to allow the ending to come together.  Regardless of your choices, you still had to face the dragon on the roof.  Then you chose from a very limited set of options how you wanted to end the game.  Same with ME3.

The difference being, you were happy with DA, you may not be with ME3, but it's not like it presented you with tons more options at the end.

I'm going to leave this here.

Armando is working on the Halo series, now? Halo 4 just keeps looking better and better by the day.

[crimzontearz]

Taboo-XX wrote...

kookie28 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...Mass Effect lead writer: Drew KarpyshynMass Effect 2 lead writers: Drew Karpyshyn and Mac WaltersMass Effect 3 lead writer: Mac WaltersDraw your own conclusions.

this








also OP, there is some creepy stalker after you

[cavs25]

Artistic Integrity


original i know
now maybe i can work for bioware 

Modifié par cavs25, 25 juin 2012 - 12:02 .

[Ticonderoga117]

GreenDragon37 wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

I'm going to leave this here.

Armando is working on the Halo series, now? Halo 4 just keeps looking better and better by the day.

Apparently. I already was throwing my money at them when they announced "a whole month of free, co-op, story DLC for FREE." Now that they have this guy who makes cinematics from one of the best RPG's I have ever played? Must throw more money!

[crimzontearz]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

GreenDragon37 wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...I'm going to leave this here.

Armando is working on the Halo series, now? Halo 4 just keeps looking better and better by the day.

Apparently. I already was throwing my money at them when they announced "a whole month of free, co-op, story DLC for FREE." Now that they have this guy who makes cinematics from one of the best RPG's I have ever played? Must throw more money!

spartan tops is free period