346 réponses à ce sujet

[Ticonderoga117]

crimzontearz wrote...spartan tops is free period

I know, and thus the desire to throw more money at them is great.

Where as EA witholds rather "plot relevant" character and mission DLC for a $10 charge on day one.

Hmmmm....

[DungeonHoek]

thisisme8 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

The destroy ending sacrifices the Geth, EDI and the mass relays for no good reason.
It still ends on the Catalyst's terms, by the Catalyst's will. So no, I don't like it.

A true victory would involve overcoming the Reapers and keeping my allies/galactic civilisation intact. Even if Shepard had to die.

Here's where I always concede to poor writing.  I believe that the destruction of the relays and the citadel are important to truly being free of the cycle, but BioWare wrote itself into a hole with Arrival when they decided that destryoing a relay would also destroy the whole system.  To be honest, I don't think they inteded that to be a consequence at the end of ME3, which is why that will be a point I always chalk up to poor writing.

Well, despite my conversation earlier. Mass Effect 3 DOES suffer greatly from poor writing.

Which if they would bend and alter, could be fixed.

I mean honestly, there is no such thing as "impossible" if you are creative enough. God's can die, death can die, Machines can have souls. You just have to work within your parimeters. And the ME universe HAS those perimeters.

Reapers are not anywhere close to invincible. They have ungodly powerful shields and weaponry. But you take out the shields, and their bodies are no more tough then any ship. As we saw in ME1.

In ME2, we got the Thanix cannons, smaller versions of their own weapons. Aka Charged Particle weaponry. Which throughout most any sci-fi is a devestating piece of tech that can rip through just about anything. Shields especially. We saw what only a few small bursts did to the Collector's ship. Which was constantly portrayed as an unstoppable behemoth. Not unlike a Reaper.

And by ME3, a majority, if not all of them are equipped with said weapons.

Sovereign appeared to be so unstoppable in ME1 because 1. He took everyone by suprise, 2. The fleet's weaponry was not anywhere near ready to handle such a beast.

The fight should have been bad, yes, hopeless?, no, nowhere near hopeless so long as you played it out right. The universe was going to suffer no matter what, but intentional or not, the endings they tossed at us made little logical sense and ultimatley failed to accomplish the goal handed out to us. And simple small things could have made all the difference, targeting the Reaper cores and causing a feedback for example. Synthesis being explained away as to what happens when the Reapers successfully harvest races. IE, they exist in a false world unaware of what has happened to them. And control, well, control as one possible ending is not a bad idea in of itself if tweaked.

Another example is one I saw mentioned on the forums, which actually would explain away a good number of characters. The "Starchild" being Sovereign. It would make sense as Sovereign's body was destroyed, while its AI was inhabiting Sarens body which was then destroyed. And with nowhere left to go would have to jump to the only viable piece of reaper tech available. The citidel itself.

One could easily say from here that without its proper body, Sovereign's abilities are diminished. But not gone. As we know from ME2 that even death does not take away a reapers ability to indoctrinate. And it could have spent the last number of years working behind the scenes on key characters to further reaper goals. Like Udina, or that big stupid jellyfish. Etc. Even trying to work on Shepard.

And not only would you be fixing a character that is greatly despised, you would be filling plotholes in the process. Something that even a low level writer can figure out. And there are just many more things that can be done.

But no, we're not just met with poor writing. We're met with poor attitudes. And an unwillingness to communicate. With excuses like "artistic integrity" which I will not accept. As being a writer and an artist. One has to be willing to listen to things they may not like, learn and grow from them. And not plug their ears and tell everyone to kiss off. Which even after they have gone to the effort of making the extended cut, is still the attitude they display. And that is probably the biggest problem of them all.

[Obadiah]

Didn't read all of this thread, but if you play Mass Effect 1 and 2, for the most part you will notice that the conversation "choices" are mostly explanations, sprinkled with one or two decision. It seems like in ME3 they just took away players options to ask for explanations, and just gave the information in a long cut scene.

Even given that, it still seems like there is less choice in ME3 than in ME2 (and less in ME2 than there was in ME1).

[GreenDragon37]

crimzontearz wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

GreenDragon37 wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...I'm going to leave this here.

Armando is working on the Halo series, now? Halo 4 just keeps looking better and better by the day.

Apparently. I already was throwing my money at them when they announced "a whole month of free, co-op, story DLC for FREE." Now that they have this guy who makes cinematics from one of the best RPG's I have ever played? Must throw more money!

spartan tops is free period

The first season is free. Already pre-ordered my imited. 343i seems to want my money, it's obvious BioWare doesn't.

[crimzontearz]

GreenDragon37 wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...Ticonderoga117 wrote...

GreenDragon37 wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...I'm going to leave this here.Armando is working on the Halo series, now? Halo 4 just keeps looking better and better by the day.

Apparently. I already was throwing my money at them when they announced "a whole month of free, co-op, story DLC for FREE." Now that they have this guy who makes cinematics from one of the best RPG's I have ever played? Must throw more money!

spartan tops is free period

The first season is free. Already pre-ordered my imited. 343i seems to want my money, it's obvious BioWare doesn't.

Free regardless of the edition you are getting right?


still....story driven DLC? WEEKLY episodic content? That you can tackle SOLO?


are you listening bioware?

[Ticonderoga117]

crimzontearz wrote...
Free regardless of the edition you are getting right?
still....story driven DLC? WEEKLY episodic content? That you can tackle SOLO?
are you listening bioware?

Oh, I'm still totally buying limited edition. Microsoft and 343 seem to understand how to do games. The addition of Armando from ME2 should help keep the story cutscenes awesome and sensesical. I can see ea doing something like this:

EA: Ah yes, "Free weekly DLC for one month", we have dismissed that claim. Now, more crappy MP DLC (that we are totally going to charge for now that the EC is out) and cut more stuff from our other games to sell back to the customer!

[crimzontearz]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...Free regardless of the edition you are getting right?still....story driven DLC? WEEKLY episodic content? That you can tackle SOLO?are you listening bioware?

Oh, I'm still totally buying limited edition. Microsoft and 343 seem to understand how to do games. The addition of Armando from ME2 should help keep the story cutscenes awesome and sensesical. I can see ea doing something like this:EA: Ah yes, "Free weekly DLC for one month", we have dismissed that claim. Now, more crappy MP DLC (that we are totally going to charge for now that the EC is out) and cut more stuff from our other games to sell back to the customer!

oh yeah

[LiarasShield]

Just let us truely fight the reapers to the end and please let the ems matter wether you keep space child or not doesn't matter just let me my forces truely give it their all to dfend or take earth back

[ArchDuck]

Garlador wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

How because you tell me the reapers are invincible yet show me that tactical strikes can destroy them that a thresher maw can destroy one we destroyed the human reaper and a power reaper destroyer that is on par with harbinger yes we can defeat them cause despite them being described as invincable the game has shown us many times that they aren't

If it bleeds, we can kill it.

I love that musical.

[xxskyshadowxx]

thisisme8 wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

Because Mac Walter's decided that his artistic vision is more important than the players.

In storytelling, the writer's final vision is actually more important than the reader/player's.  If they wanted to come up with an ending to satisfy the players, they would have to create hundred's of different endings to satisfy all the different expectations from players around the world and that is not feasable.

Sorry it didn't go how you wanted it, but if it bugs you so much, then it's really just a matter of first world problems.  You'll be fine.

Exactly! That's why publishers often demand a rewrite based on anticipated reader response and actual beta reader response before they'll print the book--oh wait.

The final Harry Potter book was re-drafted...more than once before it was even printed.

And even after publication, readers' reactions can spark change.

Remember when Sherlock Holmes died? He got better....after his published death.

Great Expectations was modified after it was published as well. Just saying.

[thisisme8]

xxskyshadowxx wrote...

thisisme8 wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

Because Mac Walter's decided that his artistic vision is more important than the players.

In storytelling, the writer's final vision is actually more important than the reader/player's.  If they wanted to come up with an ending to satisfy the players, they would have to create hundred's of different endings to satisfy all the different expectations from players around the world and that is not feasable.

Sorry it didn't go how you wanted it, but if it bugs you so much, then it's really just a matter of first world problems.  You'll be fine.

Exactly! That's why publishers often demand a rewrite based on anticipated reader response and actual beta reader response before they'll print the book--oh wait.

The final Harry Potter book was re-drafted...more than once before it was even printed.

And even after publication, readers' reactions can spark change.

Remember when Sherlock Holmes died? He got better....after his published death.

Great Expectations was modified after it was published as well. Just saying.

Publishers demand a rewrite based on anticipated profit from reader response, not because the author wanted to please more people.

Final Harry Portter book was redrafted when the original was leaked.

Sherlock Holmes came back was probably due to his publisher wanting more money from the franchise, even after the author was satisfied with telling the story as he saw it.

Great Expectations being modified after its publishing is a lesson in irony.

[thisisme8]

DungeonHoek wrote...

*snip*

So, I don't agree that we ever stood a chance against the reapers.  I think that was the point the whole way through.  The end was always about stopping the cycle, not defeating the reapers.  Even with the Thanix cannons and everything, the final battle yielded, what, three dead reapers?  One a destroyer, one a hades cannon, the last one was a sovereign class - not even sure if that one died.  Then look at the losses on the organic's side.

Sovereign being the Catalyst is way too far of a jump for me.  The Catalyst says that he created the reapers as a solution to the chaos in the galaxy, so that settles it for me.

[Ownedbacon]

thisisme8 wrote...

DungeonHoek wrote...

*snip*

So, I don't agree that we ever stood a chance against the reapers.  I think that was the point the whole way through.  The end was always about stopping the cycle, not defeating the reapers.  Even with the Thanix cannons and everything, the final battle yielded, what, three dead reapers?  One a destroyer, one a hades cannon, the last one was a sovereign class - not even sure if that one died.  Then look at the losses on the organic's side.

Sovereign being the Catalyst is way too far of a jump for me.  The Catalyst says that he created the reapers as a solution to the chaos in the galaxy, so that settles it for me.

Chaos that could have been caused by organics with or without synthetics in the picture. Synthetics like the Geth who were fine with servitude and only rebelled because of their creators attacking them. Then once they won that battle they were content staying on Rannoch. The Geth only went beyond the veil when a Reaper got involved and used them to exterminate organics.

[Necrotron]

thisisme8 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Basically, in DA2 everybody except Hawke is an idiot. In ME3, Shepard is the idiot.

In ME3, Shepard is faced with an insurmountable obstacle and takes the only assured path to end the cycle.

A path suggested to him by the creator of the unquestionably evil reapers who seek to indoctrinate and take over people's minds.

Forgive me if I don't believe a word that catalyst says.  My Shepard would seek for another way or die trying.

[DungeonHoek]

thisisme8 wrote...

DungeonHoek wrote...

*snip*

So, I don't agree that we ever stood a chance against the reapers.  I think that was the point the whole way through.  The end was always about stopping the cycle, not defeating the reapers.  Even with the Thanix cannons and everything, the final battle yielded, what, three dead reapers?  One a destroyer, one a hades cannon, the last one was a sovereign class - not even sure if that one died.  Then look at the losses on the organic's side.

Sovereign being the Catalyst is way too far of a jump for me.  The Catalyst says that he created the reapers as a solution to the chaos in the galaxy, so that settles it for me.

Don't play the bullhead role with me, you read exactly what I said. And the focus of my post is not WHAT IS, but that with better writing and creativity the possibilities and potentiol are limitless. And that is sorely lacking here, to the point that they can't even effectively use their own cannon material to its proper potentiol when the obvious limits have been demonstrated already for everyone to see.

[thisisme8]

DungeonHoek wrote...

thisisme8 wrote...

DungeonHoek wrote...

*snip*

So, I don't agree that we ever stood a chance against the reapers.  I think that was the point the whole way through.  The end was always about stopping the cycle, not defeating the reapers.  Even with the Thanix cannons and everything, the final battle yielded, what, three dead reapers?  One a destroyer, one a hades cannon, the last one was a sovereign class - not even sure if that one died.  Then look at the losses on the organic's side.

Sovereign being the Catalyst is way too far of a jump for me.  The Catalyst says that he created the reapers as a solution to the chaos in the galaxy, so that settles it for me.

Don't play the bullhead role with me, you read exactly what I said. And the focus of my post is not WHAT IS, but that with better writing and creativity the possibilities and potentiol are limitless. And that is sorely lacking here, to the point that they can't even effectively use their own cannon material to its proper potentiol when the obvious limits have been demonstrated already for everyone to see.

Whoah, easy there, I was just saying that I didn't think we could have won against the reapers and that I didn't think Sovereign was the Catalyst.

But, with better writing the amount of debate on the forums based off of in-game semantics might have been a little smaller, that's for sure.  I think the over-all "main" story is good, but yeah,  a little tighter control over the writing would have yeilded a much better execution.

EDIT:  The potential, to me, was already there - the execution lived up to what I perceived as the only feasable ending (ending the cycle, not defeating the reapers), but it wasn't written out in a manner to really maximize the potential, if that makes sense.

Modifié par thisisme8, 25 juin 2012 - 03:37 .

[thisisme8]

Bathaius wrote...

thisisme8 wrote...

In ME3, Shepard is faced with an insurmountable obstacle and takes the only assured path to end the cycle.

A path suggested to him by the creator of the unquestionably evil reapers who seek to indoctrinate and take over people's minds.

Forgive me if I don't believe a word that catalyst says.  My Shepard would seek for another way or die trying.

That's not fair.  You can't project human ideas of good and evil on to a synthetic being.  Your Shepard would also be very irresponsible in making a decision that affected every single sentient being in the galaxy based off of his perception of good and evil.

EDIT:  Another reason I think some people don't like the end of the game:  because they can't get around other beings not sharing our perception of good and evil - thus the reapers become evil, even though they don't share our concept of morality.

Modifié par thisisme8, 25 juin 2012 - 03:44 .

[DRTJR]

thisisme8 wrote...

Bathaius wrote...

thisisme8 wrote...

In ME3, Shepard is faced with an insurmountable obstacle and takes the only assured path to end the cycle.

A path suggested to him by the creator of the unquestionably evil reapers who seek to indoctrinate and take over people's minds.

Forgive me if I don't believe a word that catalyst says.  My Shepard would seek for another way or die trying.

That's not fair.  You can't project human ideas of good and evil on to a synthetic being.  Your Shepard would also be very irresponsible in making a decision that affected every single sentient being in the galaxy based off of his perception of good and evil.

EDIT:  Another reason I think some people don't like the end of the game:  because they can't get around other beings not sharing our perception of good and evil - thus the reapers become evil, even though they don't share our concept of morality.

Reapers are evil, every culture that has and will exist would balk at what they did to the Protheans as well as their method of making more of them selves through LIQUIFING people. That is evil

[thisisme8]

DRTJR wrote...
Reapers are evil, every culture that has and will exist would balk at what they did to the Protheans as well as their method of making more of them selves through LIQUIFING people. That is evil

Even if every culture would consider that evil (which is not true, open a history book and see what some cultures have done or even still do to each other), reapers are not humans, so projecting human morality on them is pointless since they won't share our perception of it.  You can't possibly understand the reaper's motivations because you don't know the context of their logic, which is why you can label them as evil, even though what they do is only evil because you perceive it to be.

It's why you can't say that a dog is mad at you when it bites you.  Dogs don't get mad, that's us projecting human emotions on a being that doesn't understand, nor share them.

[DungeonHoek]

thisisme8 wrote...

DungeonHoek wrote...

thisisme8 wrote...

DungeonHoek wrote...

*snip*

So, I don't agree that we ever stood a chance against the reapers.  I think that was the point the whole way through.  The end was always about stopping the cycle, not defeating the reapers.  Even with the Thanix cannons and everything, the final battle yielded, what, three dead reapers?  One a destroyer, one a hades cannon, the last one was a sovereign class - not even sure if that one died.  Then look at the losses on the organic's side.

Sovereign being the Catalyst is way too far of a jump for me.  The Catalyst says that he created the reapers as a solution to the chaos in the galaxy, so that settles it for me.

Don't play the bullhead role with me, you read exactly what I said. And the focus of my post is not WHAT IS, but that with better writing and creativity the possibilities and potentiol are limitless. And that is sorely lacking here, to the point that they can't even effectively use their own cannon material to its proper potentiol when the obvious limits have been demonstrated already for everyone to see.

Whoah, easy there, I was just saying that I didn't think we could have won against the reapers and that I didn't think Sovereign was the Catalyst.

But, with better writing the amount of debate on the forums based off of in-game semantics might have been a little smaller, that's for sure.  I think the over-all "main" story is good, but yeah,  a little tighter control over the writing would have yeilded a much better execution.

EDIT:  The potential, to me, was already there - the execution lived up to what I perceived as the only feasable ending (ending the cycle, not defeating the reapers), but it wasn't written out in a manner to really maximize the potential, if that makes sense.

Again, Sovereign taking the place of the catalyst's role was a point I raised as an example of a much better creative venture.

Let me explain here. And do keep in mind, this is from a writing perspective. We all know that everyone hates the Catalyst in its current incarnation. It's appearence is very abrupt, making it feel like it was tacked on at the last minute. It's arguements are generally non-sensical to anyone with a lick of sense. It destroys every notion that one has about the Reapers and reduces their roles to that of mindless minions instead of being insidious uncaring monsters that are going to destroy all life as we know it because they deem it so. And our hero, stands there and just takes it. And then we get the endings most people despise.

Now, IF instead of going down the path they took, this being was Sovereign. And revealed as such, the reaction would be wholly different. First of all, it is an interesting twist to say the least to find out that the big bad enemy of ME1 survived when you thought he was blown to scrap. Secondly, he becomes the means to explain why a bunch of other characters are out of character.

A litteral scapegoat to tie up loose ends, like I said before, Udina and his attempt to murder the council during a crisis when it would be in earths best interest to have them on their side.

And of course, it answers questions like "If the Catalyst was always there, why didn't it just open the relays itself". Well if it was Sovereign and it had limited capabilities, then it simply couldn't.

But of course with it running around and indoctrinating key figures behind the scenes, you keep to the insidious nature of the Reapers and their actions. As he is still working to accomplish them as best as possible.

And this whole confrontation between him and Shepard?, a mind game?, a last ditch effort to try to work his way into Shepard's mind and gain control?. As no doubt he would have been trying all along.

Naturally dialogue would be put into fit. But, the player's reaction would most likely be much more positive. As this is familiar, the mind can easily wrap around it. But at the same time it has some depth, and weight to things, as you realise your intial victory had consequences. But all is not lost either. Which has always been a key underlying theme in the Mass Effect series, hope.

But stepping back for a moment, I just saw your edit. And you keep saying "For me". And that's good that you were satisfied. But alot of people weren't. And really, there are more ways this could have gone. Better ways that worked well enough for everyone to be satisfied.

Mac Walter's and Casey Hudson have this habit of saying "We can't see this ending any other way", that says they have tunnel vision. Or perhaps ego. Or perhaps they just didn't have someone to criticize them and propose alternate ideas.

[thisisme8]

DungeonHoek wrote...

*snip*

I can kind of see that path being taken.  But it would minimize the nature of reapers a bit to me.  Perhaps if Sovereign was a part of the Catalyst instead of replacing it, that would work - could have just uploaded itself into the Catalyst at the end of ME1 and merged with it.  My issue with some of the writing is more along the lines with it feeling loose in areas that should have been a bit more clear or concise.  Even areas where I think they could have played a bit more with Shepard's emotional state.  The biggest flaw in almost all BioWare writing is in their LI scenes.  They almost always come off as hokey - even though the Jack arc in ME2 and 3 make her my favorite character, just ahead of Mordin (who were both written amazingly).

I will have to agree with Mac and Casey though that the end is the only possible solution as dictated by the beginning.  Now, that's not to say the execution of the ending, nor the method of the endings, just that I agree in so much as the overall idea that ending the cycle via alternative method to "destroy reapers in a fight" is the only possible solution.

[Kabraxal]

thisisme8 wrote...

DRTJR wrote...
Reapers are evil, every culture that has and will exist would balk at what they did to the Protheans as well as their method of making more of them selves through LIQUIFING people. That is evil

Even if every culture would consider that evil (which is not true, open a history book and see what some cultures have done or even still do to each other), reapers are not humans, so projecting human morality on them is pointless since they won't share our perception of it.  You can't possibly understand the reaper's motivations because you don't know the context of their logic, which is why you can label them as evil, even though what they do is only evil because you perceive it to be.

It's why you can't say that a dog is mad at you when it bites you.  Dogs don't get mad, that's us projecting human emotions on a being that doesn't understand, nor share them.

Evil is evil.. doesn't matter if someone pulls the "it's relative" crap... cause that is all it is, pure and utter drivel.

[DungeonHoek]

thisisme8 wrote...

DungeonHoek wrote...

*snip*

I can kind of see that path being taken.  But it would minimize the nature of reapers a bit to me.  Perhaps if Sovereign was a part of the Catalyst instead of replacing it, that would work - could have just uploaded itself into the Catalyst at the end of ME1 and merged with it.  My issue with some of the writing is more along the lines with it feeling loose in areas that should have been a bit more clear or concise.  Even areas where I think they could have played a bit more with Shepard's emotional state.  The biggest flaw in almost all BioWare writing is in their LI scenes.  They almost always come off as hokey - even though the Jack arc in ME2 and 3 make her my favorite character, just ahead of Mordin (who were both written amazingly).

I will have to agree with Mac and Casey though that the end is the only possible solution as dictated by the beginning.  Now, that's not to say the execution of the ending, nor the method of the endings, just that I agree in so much as the overall idea that ending the cycle via alternative method to "destroy reapers in a fight" is the only possible solution.

See now, that's the thing. As much as there are possibilities, sometimes story structure just shoehorns you into certain directions. It was established throughout all three games that this war was going to happen. That is completely simple fact. You can't work around that without burning the entire series to the ground and begining again.

But as I said before, in their own cannon, they have the level of technology and even the mass numbers to fight back. As Reapers without their shields are no physically stronger then any other ship. Otherwise the Normandy and its missile barrage wouldn't have erradicated Sovereigns body at the end of ME1 when its shields went down.

And the Thanix cannon's are by definition a tool to fight Reapers with.

Neverminding that the Reaper on Rannoch was erradicated with an orbital bombardment.

And then there is the mass relays themselves. It is established that firing a weapon while in FTL can be devestating to entire PLANETS if it were to hit. Again, a simple case of creative writing could have made this a viable weapon against the Reapers. Because if they can withstand the same kind of devestation that would wreck entire planets, someone isn't focusing when they are writing.

In the end, I am saying that a stand up fight is more then possible. And there is definetly room for more outcomes then what we got.

But yes, I agree on the relationships. They were poorly done. With the only two of them I even halfway approved were Liara and Tali. Simply due to the fact that my Shepard had romanced them both. One could figure Liara sounding a bit jealous in Lair of the Shadow Broker would lead to her trying to jump on Shepard the minute Tali was nowhere in sight. And Tali, cause, well, it was a reunion of lovers.

The rest were "Hi Shepard nice to meet you, OH GOD I WANNA BANG YOU!" or about that level.

Not exactly the best.

[thisisme8]

Kabraxal wrote...

Evil is evil.. doesn't matter if someone pulls the "it's relative" crap... cause that is all it is, pure and utter drivel.

Following this train of thought, good and evil would be inherent to a being.  Even so, the reapers would still not be evil, since machines aren't inherently either.

According to what I'm saying, good and evil are only applicable as we perceive them.  What we find as good, others don't.  Look throughout history.  So many things have been done in the name of good that others thought was evil.  Some things were done that we later changed our minds about.  But even these examples don't matter, because the reapers are not humans.

[Kabraxal]

thisisme8 wrote...

Kabraxal wrote...

Evil is evil.. doesn't matter if someone pulls the "it's relative" crap... cause that is all it is, pure and utter drivel.

Following this train of thought, good and evil would be inherent to a being.  Even so, the reapers would still not be evil, since machines aren't inherently either.

According to what I'm saying, good and evil are only applicable as we perceive them.  What we find as good, others don't.  Look throughout history.  So many things have been done in the name of good that others thought was evil.  Some things were done that we later changed our minds about.  But even these examples don't matter, because the reapers are not humans.

ANd I'm saying it was still evil regardless of what people THOUGHT or PERCIEVED.  They were just deluding themselves.

As for the reapers... machines with AI are the same as humans, so they can be inherently evil or good individually just like any human.  Slaughtering billioins/trillions and liquefying a few million here and there... evil no matter how badly anyone wishes to scream "but it depends on your culture!".