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Why Give Players So Much Control over shepard From Mass Effect 1 and 2 and then towards the end of 3 take it away?


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#76
thisisme8

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JesseLee202 wrote...

thisisme8 wrote...

JesseLee202 wrote...

Read Harbinger's codex entry in ME3 please.


No, I get it.  But he played his part and he's still a reaper.  He may be the best and baddest reaper, but when confronted with the creator of the reapers, he's still just a reaper.


See, if Harbinger gave you those three choices... what would you choose?

I just hated how they threw that kid in the last five minutes of a trilogy.


I think a lot of people are dissapointed with the endings because throughout the series, they actually believed that Shepard was going to defeat the reapers.

I remember at the end of ME1, thinking that it would be impossible to defeat thousands of Sovereign-like ships.  ME2 justified my theory when you saw all the reaper ships in the final cutscene.  I knew there was not going to be any way of defeating them - and prayed to God that they weren't going to go Independence Day on us and do the virus route.  Thankfully they didn't, and the end lived up to my expectation, even if it was a bit Matrix Revolutionish.

#77
chemiclord

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Here's the issue.

You really DIDN'T have all that much control of Shepard at ANY point. Even in ME1, guess how much the game cared about your headcanon? Less than jack ****. Same with ME2.

What those games were great at was giving you the illusion of control... just enough slack in the leash to give your headcanon room to fill in the spaces, but not so much that you went and veered off the path they had plotted.

With ME3, they really yanked on that leash, and finally, players realized it was there. But let's not fool ourselves, it's ALWAYS been there.

#78
LiarasShield

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thisisme8 wrote...

JesseLee202 wrote...

thisisme8 wrote...

JesseLee202 wrote...

Read Harbinger's codex entry in ME3 please.


No, I get it.  But he played his part and he's still a reaper.  He may be the best and baddest reaper, but when confronted with the creator of the reapers, he's still just a reaper.


See, if Harbinger gave you those three choices... what would you choose?

I just hated how they threw that kid in the last five minutes of a trilogy.


I think a lot of people are dissapointed with the endings because throughout the series, they actually believed that Shepard was going to defeat the reapers.

I remember at the end of ME1, thinking that it would be impossible to defeat thousands of Sovereign-like ships.  ME2 justified my theory when you saw all the reaper ships in the final cutscene.  I knew there was not going to be any way of defeating them - and prayed to God that they weren't going to go Independence Day on us and do the virus route.  Thankfully they didn't, and the end lived up to my expectation, even if it was a bit Matrix Revolutionish.



I guess your willing to bow down or submit or not believe in force or strength of the galaxy and the races or people behind you unfortunately I am and I know that damn sure that we could've beaten them without out the catalyst or at least given them one hell of a fight that they would remember for ages to come

#79
thisisme8

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Mr.House wrote...

thisisme8 wrote...

JesseLee202 wrote...

Read Harbinger's codex entry in ME3 please.


No, I get it.  But he played his part and he's still a reaper.  He may be the best and baddest reaper, but when confronted with the creator of the reapers, he's still just a reaper.

You are not confronted with the creator. You are confronted by something that controls the Reapers. We don't know what this thing is, only it's the leader of the Reapers and by that, the true villian that Shepard strikes a deal with.


The Catalyst states that the reapers are his solution.  This implies that he created them for a purpose.

#80
AngryFrozenWater

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thisisme8 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

If it's a choice between believing what the leader of the Reapers tells me, or eliminating the greatest enemy of the galaxy and giving my people a chance at victory on our own terms, I will take the latter. My Shepard would take the latter.

Yes, it's a risk. But I'd rather die fighting than live surrendering to an unrepentant mass murderer.

And that's fair.  Nobody wants the bad guy to win and if there is a chance to defeat him unconditionally, we should take it.  But not when you have the whole galaxy at risk.  Do you have kids?  A wife/husband?  Would you risk them in a situation where you can guarantee to save them?  Even Javik said that you can't win with your honor intact.

That's why I think destroy is the best option. The brat and the reapers cannot be trusted when their methods are deceit, in the form of indoctrination, an extremely violent cyclical maniacal genocidal reproduction method to stay on top of the food chain, in the form of "destruction through ascension", lies, in the form of a hypothetical threat which is nowhere to be found in the game, two offers to condone their motives, in the forms of controlling them like an undead dictator and invoke synthesis which is nothing more than a variation of the Lebensborn project witout the mothers and violates the races' right of self-determination by mutating their racial identity without their consent. The reapers have caused more harm than the synthetics will be able to inflict. Even if there were any problems with synthetics then the organics were perfectly able to solve them without their interference.

Edit: Unfortunately this option destroys the geth. I hope that is solved in the EC, because betraying them is not what I want and it is again playing in the brat's cards.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 24 juin 2012 - 08:50 .


#81
LiarasShield

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Surrender is not option I would ever take espically when I have total faith in my forces and troops that I brought to the battlefield and yes it is better die with your head held high then to live bound in chains or in this case to slowly potentially die inspace

#82
Mr.House

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thisisme8 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

thisisme8 wrote...

JesseLee202 wrote...

Read Harbinger's codex entry in ME3 please.


No, I get it.  But he played his part and he's still a reaper.  He may be the best and baddest reaper, but when confronted with the creator of the reapers, he's still just a reaper.

You are not confronted with the creator. You are confronted by something that controls the Reapers. We don't know what this thing is, only it's the leader of the Reapers and by that, the true villian that Shepard strikes a deal with.


The Catalyst states that the reapers are his solution.  This implies that he created them for a purpose.

Or the creator created Starbrat and inputed his mind into the being. We still don't know what Starbrat even is. IS he an AI, is he a Reaper? Is he a VI? So many questions and none are answered. All we know is he is the leader of the reapers, the villians. Yet Shepard accepts his logic. Just...no.:pinched:

#83
LiarasShield

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Like shepard Told To harbinger

Harbinger: you are only delaying the inevitably shepard

Shepard: Maybe we can't win but were not gonan give up it may cost us half the galaxy but we will fight and we will sacrifice and we will find a way because that is what humans do

The way shepard has been before this is not really acceptable torwards the end as a heroic commander ^^

Modifié par LiarasShield, 24 juin 2012 - 07:29 .


#84
AngryFrozenWater

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The PR department have told us that the brat is a "being of light" which is supposed to fight "machine devils". The codex of Klencory mentions their existence in two games. Do I believe the PR? Don't ask me. ;)

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 24 juin 2012 - 07:34 .


#85
The Angry One

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thisisme8 wrote...

And that's fair.  Nobody wants the bad guy to win and if there is a chance to defeat him unconditionally, we should take it.  But not when you have the whole galaxy at risk.  Do you have kids?  A wife/husband?  Would you risk them in a situation where you can guarantee to save them?  Even Javik said that you can't win with your honor intact.


Yes, I have a family. I would fight for them. I wouldn't subject them to the Catalyst's vision for the future.
I have no reason to trust the Catalyst and no reason to do it's bidding.

Sure, it's a risk to oppose it. But it's a risk to cooperate with it too. It's all a risk, with no guarantees.
Given that I'd go with the option that doesn't sacrifice the soul of our species.

#86
JShepppp

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LiarasShield wrote...

Why allow the players to be able to customize shepard to make him or her do the actions that the player or the person would probably do why give us mostly the free rain to be ourselves wether trying to save everybody or destroy everybody in mass effect 1 and 2 our how our choices change or alter certain events and then take it away at the end of mass effect 3


ME1 and ME2 ended with two big decisions (saving the council, saving the collector's base). ME3 ended similarly with a huge renegade/paragon decision with a third option thrown into the mix perhaps since the story is over and they didn't have to narrow it down.

The third option represents a 50% increase in options.


What if shepard didn't want to die what if he or she would've sacrificed someone else or not choose the catalysts options


If Shep didn't want to die then he/she wouldn't have activated the Crucible and the galaxy would've been screwed. Sacrifice was a big theme in ME, and the ultimate goal requires the ultimate sacrifice.

Not activating the Crucible is still an option in-game though you get a game-over screen.

The options are that of the crucible, NOT the catalyst.


What if shepard wanted to find another way?


Conventional warfare won't win. The story was written that way. What other way would there be besides a superweapon? This isn't Bioware confining player choices. This is how their story was told. The Crucible itself has 3 options to fire, which is more than we got in the end of previous games.


Also if all player choices or previous actions are rendered pointless then I'm curious why control is a option when shepard was fighting against the illusive man the entire time about how it was a bad idea or how control wouldn't work that we have to destroy the reapers and how the reapers are having us fight among each other instead of fighting them so why would shepard automaticlly pick the choice that he or she argued with the illusive man during the course of the entire game


The Catalyst BELIEVES it is protecting all organics.

Shepard would take control of the Reapers to protect organics (doesn't have to do what the Catalyst did and do the cycles, but the idea is that).

TIM would take control of the Reapers to subjugate all organics.

There is a huge difference there. Kind of like how Harry gets the sorcerer's stone in the first book because he's "worthy" and wants it for the "right reasons", control is presented as a similar option. If you don't like it, then don't pick it.


Also if all choices are only you die options then it is the illusion of a choice  because what if shepard wants to live or tries to fight back


You die in all the choices, yes. But what happens after HASN'T BEEN DETAILED, so we don't know if it's the same afterwards or not. All the endings have very different philosophies and visions driving them, so chances are things are not the same, just the Crucible's cutscene activation was.

And I can accept the Crucible activated the same. It's like a gun firing incendiary, cryo, or ammo-piercing rounds. It's the same, but different color, and with different purpose.


Their not really choices cause you can't decide wether to really live or die or wether to do what the catalyst says or oppose it


Choosing to live or die isn't the point. You are choosing how you combat the Reapers rather than being forced down one path (destroy). In the spirit of ME, you have true choice here in how to combat the Reaper threat.

I thought the story wasn't about Shepard's life or death; it was about defeating the Reaper threat. That doesn't necessarily mean all Reapers have to die, though that is an option. Imagine if destroy was the only ending. Then there'd be ZERO choice.

Now if you're talking about the consequences of your choices, that's the EPILOGUE which we weren't given, which EC will give. They didn't take control AWAY from the player, they just didn't show the actions. Hopefully the EC will tell us more. Until then, we can't tell whether or not they took control.

EDIT: Forgot to mention you can live in destroy. But still.

Modifié par JShepppp, 24 juin 2012 - 07:38 .


#87
The Angry One

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thisisme8 wrote...

Calling the Catalyst a maniac is projection.  It's an AI.  It simply followed the course of action it deemed most appropriate for the situation it was in millions of years ago.


That course of action being murder and mayhem. That is never justified.

Where are the Catalyst's outright lies?


It denies killing, instead pointing out that it "ascends" organics and preserves them in Reaper form.
Except for those it doesn't. Like, you know, the child who's form it's taking.
Except for the Quarians, who it was going to exterminate.
Except for the Zha, who were annihilated when it forced the Zha'til to overtake them.
Except for who knows how many other species the Reapers decided to outright exterminate for one reason or another.

#88
Xellith

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Hitler tells you to kill yourself to save the galaxy.

Would you do it?

This is my problem when it comes to the catalyst >.>

#89
LiarasShield

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Its about fear your letting fear hold you back or stop you from acheiving great or amazing things I know that we can beat the reapers on our own ground or I'd be willnig to fight till the end no matter what because I won't let fear compromise who I am and hold me or my forces back


If 300 spartan soldiers can hold back thousands or millions of persians then a entire galaxy made up of the greatest races the world has ever known can take on or combat the reapers

#90
LiarasShield

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How because you tell me the reapers are invincible yet show me that tactical strikes can destroy them that a thresher maw can destroy one we destroyed the human reaper and a power reaper destroyer that is on par with harbinger yes we can defeat them cause despite them being described as invincable the game has shown us many times that they aren't

Modifié par LiarasShield, 24 juin 2012 - 07:40 .


#91
Iakus

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Bioware to all out Shepards:

"You exist because we permit it, and you will end because we demand it"

#92
tschamp

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I will go with the simple answer here:

It is about what Bioware wantS and not you. You are just some piggy bank to them now...ENJOY MULTIPLAYER HORDE GAME!!!

Modifié par tschamp, 24 juin 2012 - 07:41 .


#93
JShepppp

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LiarasShield wrote...

Its about fear your letting fear hold you back or stop you from acheiving great or amazing things I know that we can beat the reapers on our own ground or I'd be willnig to fight till the end no matter what because I won't let fear compromise who I am and hold me or my forces back


If 300 spartan soldiers can hold back thousands or millions of persians then a entire galaxy made up of the greatest races the world has ever known can take on or combat the reapers


About the spartans - each soldier can be just as easily killed as another and they have the same weapons generally; it's the tactics and skill that will make the difference.

Reapers are much harder to kill than a similar organic dreadnought and whatnot, and they've got stronger weapons.

#94
Mr.House

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AngryFrozenWater wrote...

The PR department have told us that the brat is a "being of light" which is supposed to fight "machine devils". The codex of Klencory mentions their existence in two games. Do I believe the PR? Don't ask me. ;)

Which is bs since Starbrat is not fighting "machine devils."

#95
Garlador

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LiarasShield wrote...

How because you tell me the reapers are invincible yet show me that tactical strikes can destroy them that a thresher maw can destroy one we destroyed the human reaper and a power reaper destroyer that is on par with harbinger yes we can defeat them cause despite them being described as invincable the game has shown us many times that they aren't


If it bleeds, we can kill it.

#96
LiarasShield

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iakus wrote...

Bioware to all out Shepards:

"You exist because we permit it, and you will end because we demand it"



that makes me think that bioware some how became harbinger and destroyed us all like harbinger promised from me2 lol O_O

#97
LiarasShield

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Garlador wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

How because you tell me the reapers are invincible yet show me that tactical strikes can destroy them that a thresher maw can destroy one we destroyed the human reaper and a power reaper destroyer that is on par with harbinger yes we can defeat them cause despite them being described as invincable the game has shown us many times that they aren't


If it bleeds, we can kill it.



Exactly they aren't invincible thanix cannons tactical strikes from quarian ships thresher maw squad tactics taking down the human reaper defeating soverign and saren


We can and I believe we really could've beaten them

#98
thisisme8

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LiarasShield wrote...

I guess your willing to bow down or submit or not believe in force or strength of the galaxy and the races or people behind you unfortunately I am and I know that damn sure that we could've beaten them without out the catalyst or at least given them one hell of a fight that they would remember for ages to come


And that's why you haven't been given the responsibility of entire groups of people.  Because regardless of whether or not fighting is the right choice, you don't grasp the weight of responsibility.

Also, there is no way that they were going to outgun the reapers.  And Protheans gave one hell of a fight, so did the races before them.  But they ended up as collectors or reapers themselves.

I get that people think it sucks that Shep just accepted the Catalyst and went right along with it, but remember one of the first things Shep asks when he sees it?  Something along the lines of "I need to stop the reapers, Do you know how I can do that?"  It just shows the desperation he was feeling at that point.  People can overanalyze every scene and sound in the game and say this means that and science and physics all they want, but at some point you have to let certain things slide for the sake of storytelling (or is it a conspiracy that there are only 7 haircuts in the entire galaxy).  Back on point:  the game progressively shows Shepard devolve into a state of desperation.  Look at how Garrus keeps asking if Shepard is alright, or he looks tired, etc.  It's as much a part of the game as the super secret hidden sound that is inaudible to the ear that is obviously BioWare trying to indoctrinate us.  This desperation in Shepard is at its peak when Hackett calls and says that nothing is happening.  Extrapolate from that what you will.

#99
AngryFrozenWater

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Mr.House wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

The PR department have told us that the brat is a "being of light" which is supposed to fight "machine devils". The codex of Klencory mentions their existence in two games. Do I believe the PR? Don't ask me. ;)

Which is bs since Starbrat is not fighting "machine devils."

Agreed. Let's hope there is not something worse than the reapers. :P

#100
Baa Baa

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Garlador wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

How because you tell me the reapers are invincible yet show me that tactical strikes can destroy them that a thresher maw can destroy one we destroyed the human reaper and a power reaper destroyer that is on par with harbinger yes we can defeat them cause despite them being described as invincable the game has shown us many times that they aren't


If it bleeds, we can kill it.

If it bleeds we can kill it!
Now it's all up to me! Mud all over my body, so the bastard can't see! It's a solo companion now, get revenge for my men, Hawkens, Mac, and Ramirez, Billy, Dillon, and BLAIN

Modifié par Baa Baa, 24 juin 2012 - 07:49 .