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[LiarasShield]

thisisme8 wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

I guess your willing to bow down or submit or not believe in force or strength of the galaxy and the races or people behind you unfortunately I am and I know that damn sure that we could've beaten them without out the catalyst or at least given them one hell of a fight that they would remember for ages to come

And that's why you haven't been given the responsibility of entire groups of people.  Because regardless of whether or not fighting is the right choice, you don't grasp the weight of responsibility.

Also, there is no way that they were going to outgun the reapers.  And Protheans gave one hell of a fight, so did the races before them.  But they ended up as collectors or reapers themselves.

I get that people think it sucks that Shep just accepted the Catalyst and went right along with it, but remember one of the first things Shep asks when he sees it?  Something along the lines of "I need to stop the reapers, Do you know how I can do that?"  It just shows the desperation he was feeling at that point.  People can overanalyze every scene and sound in the game and say this means that and science and physics all they want, but at some point you have to let certain things slide for the sake of storytelling (or is it a conspiracy that there are only 7 haircuts in the entire galaxy).  Back on point:  the game progressively shows Shepard devolve into a state of desperation.  Look at how Garrus keeps asking if Shepard is alright, or he looks tired, etc.  It's as much a part of the game as the super secret hidden sound that is inaudible to the ear that is obviously BioWare trying to indoctrinate us.  This desperation in Shepard is at its peak when Hackett calls and says that nothing is happening.  Extrapolate from that what you will.

Once again javik stated that the protheans lost because they couldn't adapt because they were all the same we have different races different stragetys and many things have shown that they are not invincible it shows me that if this fight was real you would've given up or probably retreated from the battle]

[XqctaX]

The Angry One wrote...

Mass Effect lead writer: Drew Karpyshyn
Mass Effect 2 lead writers: Drew Karpyshyn and Mac Walters
Mass Effect 3 lead writer: Mac Walters

Draw your own conclusions.

qouted for truth. been saying this for a looooong time lol

kinda like that deception book, ehum...  drew should have stuck around for the last game, imho 

[Ticonderoga117]

Baa Baa wrote...

Garlador wrote...
If it bleeds, we can kill it.

If it bleeds we can kill it!
Now it's all up to me! Mud all over my body, so the bastard can't see! It's a solo companion now, get revenge for my men, Hawkens, Mac, and Ramirez, Billy, Dillon, and BLAIN

Ruuun! Get to the CHOPPAH!
BTW: I freaking love thier songs.

[The Angry One]

thisisme8 wrote...

And that's why you haven't been given the responsibility of entire groups of people.  Because regardless of whether or not fighting is the right choice, you don't grasp the weight of responsibility.

YOU don't grasp it, since you'd readily sell billions on the word of a mass murderer.

Also, there is no way that they were going to outgun the reapers.  And Protheans gave one hell of a fight, so did the races before them.  But they ended up as collectors or reapers themselves.

In this cycle, things are different. The Reapers didn't start with their standard advantage and kept taking losses.

I get that people think it sucks that Shep just accepted the Catalyst and went right along with it, but remember one of the first things Shep asks when he sees it?  Something along the lines of "I need to stop the reapers, Do you know how I can do that?"  It just shows the desperation he was feeling at that point.  People can overanalyze every scene and sound in the game and say this means that and science and physics all they want, but at some point you have to let certain things slide for the sake of storytelling (or is it a conspiracy that there are only 7 haircuts in the entire galaxy).  Back on point:  the game progressively shows Shepard devolve into a state of desperation.  Look at how Garrus keeps asking if Shepard is alright, or he looks tired, etc.  It's as much a part of the game as the super secret hidden sound that is inaudible to the ear that is obviously BioWare trying to indoctrinate us.  This desperation in Shepard is at its peak when Hackett calls and says that nothing is happening.  Extrapolate from that what you will.

Nothing justifies capitulation to the Reapers. Nothing.
You know what happened to Protheans who capitulated? They became Collectors.

[TookYoCookies]

Bad writing/producing/story telling/overall game design..

The main themes of Mass Effect's story were forgotten in the last 15 minutes. The main draw of Mass Effect's gameplay was not even included in this game. Gameplay mechanics that were innovative, unique, and fun, were replaced with repetitive, over used bull sh*t.

Story telling took a back seat, choice took a back seat, Non-linearity took a back seat, this game was a degeneration of its former self.. Rather than expand on the things that made the first 2 games great, they dumbed them down or removed them entirely for ME3..

I honestly think ME3 was made for stupid people.. Bad story, Bigger explosions/******, fetch quests, etc.etc.. I have a hard time removing my palm from my face when i come on here and see the things said by people that defend the game/ending. Their all either stupid as f*ck, die hard fan-boys, or so smug/full of sh*t they actually think this game was a worthy evolution of the franchise..

Bad story is bad. Bad design is bad.

[Garlador]

thisisme8 wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

I guess your willing to bow down or submit or not believe in force or strength of the galaxy and the races or people behind you unfortunately I am and I know that damn sure that we could've beaten them without out the catalyst or at least given them one hell of a fight that they would remember for ages to come

And that's why you haven't been given the responsibility of entire groups of people.  Because regardless of whether or not fighting is the right choice, you don't grasp the weight of responsibility.

Also, there is no way that they were going to outgun the reapers.  And Protheans gave one hell of a fight, so did the races before them.  But they ended up as collectors or reapers themselves.

I get that people think it sucks that Shep just accepted the Catalyst and went right along with it, but remember one of the first things Shep asks when he sees it?  Something along the lines of "I need to stop the reapers, Do you know how I can do that?"  It just shows the desperation he was feeling at that point.  People can overanalyze every scene and sound in the game and say this means that and science and physics all they want, but at some point you have to let certain things slide for the sake of storytelling (or is it a conspiracy that there are only 7 haircuts in the entire galaxy).  Back on point:  the game progressively shows Shepard devolve into a state of desperation.  Look at how Garrus keeps asking if Shepard is alright, or he looks tired, etc.  It's as much a part of the game as the super secret hidden sound that is inaudible to the ear that is obviously BioWare trying to indoctrinate us.  This desperation in Shepard is at its peak when Hackett calls and says that nothing is happening.  Extrapolate from that what you will.

But it's not YOUR choice to make. It's HIS choice as HIS Shepard.

If he wants to doom the galaxy, that's his choice. As it stands, we don't get the option to choose. We just do as we're told, all of us. There is neither victory or defeat, merey submission to the will of a being that never earned our trust and confidence.

Ultimately, the lack of choice, of either failure or success, is detrimental to the game and the themes of the series as a whole. When an arbitrary ending is forced upon us, no matter our age, gender, sexual orientation, or race, no matter how paragon or renegade we've been, no matter how much we've prepared or blown off responsibility, it makes all the prior investment a moot point and negates the entire point of roleplaying the game in the first place.

If he wants to fight, and fail, he should've had that option, as that was his choice to make, one that his Shepard did not make. The lack of options for players to truly play the way they wish to to achieve the results they desire is a catastrophic misstep on Bioware's part, and something their own creators talked about at length when developing Mass Effect 2's ending.

[LiarasShield]

Do you have what it takes to stand up to a powerful foe and never give up do you have what it takes to believe in the men and women around that their strength willpower and compassion can carry them througn and go the distance

The reapers aren't invincible we have destroyed several times and so have our forces and I really believe we could've done it again

[thisisme8]

The Angry One wrote...

thisisme8 wrote...

Calling the Catalyst a maniac is projection.  It's an AI.  It simply followed the course of action it deemed most appropriate for the situation it was in millions of years ago.

That course of action being murder and mayhem. That is never justified.

Where are the Catalyst's outright lies?

It denies killing, instead pointing out that it "ascends" organics and preserves them in Reaper form.
Except for those it doesn't. Like, you know, the child who's form it's taking.
Except for the Quarians, who it was going to exterminate.
Except for the Zha, who were annihilated when it forced the Zha'til to overtake them.
Except for who knows how many other species the Reapers decided to outright exterminate for one reason or another.

You keep projecting your emotions onto the Catalyst's actions.  When you exterminate bugs in your house are you maniac?  What about the poor bugs who just wanted a home?  Not all bugs are dangerous and there is really no reason we can't coexist, but we insist on killing them.  Are we maniacs?  Are we murderers?

The Reapers and the Catalyst view their position the same.  Destroy the bugs, while keeping them intact in another form to preserve their memory.

And the Catalyst never "outright" denies killing.

[LiarasShield]

well I believe we could've defeated the reapers without the crucible or the catalyst if we had max ems I wish we were allowed that opportunity

[Ticonderoga117]

thisisme8 wrote...
The Reapers and the Catalyst view their position the same.  Destroy the bugs, while keeping them intact in another form to preserve their memory.

So you say they don't care because we're akin to bugs to them... so why go through the trouble of preserving thier memory? If I got my basement sprayed, I wouldn't go over my basement with a fine-tooth brush first to find the best bug subjects then puree them in my blender to make a bug shaped cyborg thing first. I'd just kill them.

[Xellith]

LiarasShield wrote...

well I believe we could've defeated the reapers without the crucible or the catalyst if we had max ems I wish we were allowed that opportunity

You were silly for thinking that Mass Effect 3 cared about your choices.

Not like its the witcher or anything (just completed witcher 1 yesterday.  EPIC WIN)

[LiarasShield]

Well never got the feeling that it didn't care until the ending lol

[XqctaX]

thisisme8 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

thisisme8 wrote...

Calling the Catalyst a maniac is projection.  It's an AI.  It simply followed the course of action it deemed most appropriate for the situation it was in millions of years ago.

That course of action being murder and mayhem. That is never justified.

Where are the Catalyst's outright lies?

It denies killing, instead pointing out that it "ascends" organics and preserves them in Reaper form.
Except for those it doesn't. Like, you know, the child who's form it's taking.
Except for the Quarians, who it was going to exterminate.
Except for the Zha, who were annihilated when it forced the Zha'til to overtake them.
Except for who knows how many other species the Reapers decided to outright exterminate for one reason or another.

You keep projecting your emotions onto the Catalyst's actions.  When you exterminate bugs in your house are you maniac?  What about the poor bugs who just wanted a home?  Not all bugs are dangerous and there is really no reason we can't coexist, but we insist on killing them.  Are we maniacs?  Are we murderers?

The Reapers and the Catalyst view their position the same.  Destroy the bugs, while keeping them intact in another form to preserve their memory.

And the Catalyst never "outright" denies killing.

comparing sentinent humanoid spacefaring advanced races to bugs does not really help your argument.

[thisisme8]

Garlador wrote...

thisisme8 wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

I guess your willing to bow down or submit or not believe in force or strength of the galaxy and the races or people behind you unfortunately I am and I know that damn sure that we could've beaten them without out the catalyst or at least given them one hell of a fight that they would remember for ages to come

And that's why you haven't been given the responsibility of entire groups of people.  Because regardless of whether or not fighting is the right choice, you don't grasp the weight of responsibility.

Also, there is no way that they were going to outgun the reapers.  And Protheans gave one hell of a fight, so did the races before them.  But they ended up as collectors or reapers themselves.

I get that people think it sucks that Shep just accepted the Catalyst and went right along with it, but remember one of the first things Shep asks when he sees it?  Something along the lines of "I need to stop the reapers, Do you know how I can do that?"  It just shows the desperation he was feeling at that point.  People can overanalyze every scene and sound in the game and say this means that and science and physics all they want, but at some point you have to let certain things slide for the sake of storytelling (or is it a conspiracy that there are only 7 haircuts in the entire galaxy).  Back on point:  the game progressively shows Shepard devolve into a state of desperation.  Look at how Garrus keeps asking if Shepard is alright, or he looks tired, etc.  It's as much a part of the game as the super secret hidden sound that is inaudible to the ear that is obviously BioWare trying to indoctrinate us.  This desperation in Shepard is at its peak when Hackett calls and says that nothing is happening.  Extrapolate from that what you will.

But it's not YOUR choice to make. It's HIS choice as HIS Shepard.

If he wants to doom the galaxy, that's his choice. As it stands, we don't get the option to choose. We just do as we're told, all of us. There is neither victory or defeat, merey submission to the will of a being that never earned our trust and confidence.

Ultimately, the lack of choice, of either failure or success, is detrimental to the game and the themes of the series as a whole. When an arbitrary ending is forced upon us, no matter our age, gender, sexual orientation, or race, no matter how paragon or renegade we've been, no matter how much we've prepared or blown off responsibility, it makes all the prior investment a moot point and negates the entire point of roleplaying the game in the first place.

If he wants to fight, and fail, he should've had that option, as that was his choice to make, one that his Shepard did not make. The lack of options for players to truly play the way they wish to to achieve the results they desire is a catastrophic misstep on Bioware's part, and something their own creators talked about at length when developing Mass Effect 2's ending.

I said this earlier, but that lack of choice is really because of 2 things:

Logistical nightmare:  We aren't talking about ending a game, but a trilogy.  The scope is too big.  I'll give you that they could have added a fourth option where Shep says "screw it" and tries to fight the kid, only to end up dooming the entire galaxy, but that also leads me up to my second point.

All your choices do matter.  At some point, there has to be an end.  They can give you 2 hours of cutscenes showing the result of every single decision you made throughout the ME series, but they didn't.  That doesn't change the fact that those decisions were still made and do matter.  Did Wrex die in ME1? In ME3?  Did the Geth and Quarians end their war?  How?  Etc. etc.

Still, the decision that irks people the most is the very last one, and I get it.  I think it's a good ending because I saw it coming from ME1, but I know that other people have other views.

[thisisme8]

XqctaX wrote...
comparing sentinent humanoid spacefaring advanced races to bugs does not really help your argument.

The difference in evolution between us and bugs is smaller than the perceived evolutionary difference between a reaper and a human.

[thisisme8]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

thisisme8 wrote...
The Reapers and the Catalyst view their position the same.  Destroy the bugs, while keeping them intact in another form to preserve their memory.

So you say they don't care because we're akin to bugs to them... so why go through the trouble of preserving thier memory? If I got my basement sprayed, I wouldn't go over my basement with a fine-tooth brush first to find the best bug subjects then puree them in my blender to make a bug shaped cyborg thing first. I'd just kill them.

Because that is their role.

[LiarasShield]

well defeat submission letting the being who controls the reapers to tell me what to do also since I beleive in the the forces I've gathered and have max ems I should have the option to say no to the catalyst and fight to the end and give it all we got because that is the noble way to go you think we can't defeat the reapers I've seen many times ingame that we can

[XqctaX]

LiarasShield wrote...

well I believe we could've defeated the reapers without the crucible or the catalyst if we had max ems I wish we were allowed that opportunity

i agree on this. 

im not going to speak for anyone else but imho....
if they would have had the catalyst simply turn fo the reapers shields
with some signal we got from "Indoc science" ("remember sovereigns sheilds going down when he turned saren?)
some version of that signal and then we could beat them with conventional warfare...

its been done b4 yes. but still i think that would be WAY BETTER if done even semiright compare to the fubar ending we have atm.

[The Angry One]

thisisme8 wrote...

You keep projecting your emotions onto the Catalyst's actions.  When you exterminate bugs in your house are you maniac?  What about the poor bugs who just wanted a home?  Not all bugs are dangerous and there is really no reason we can't coexist, but we insist on killing them.  Are we maniacs?  Are we murderers?

Do we go out of our way to terrorise them?
Do we stomp on their works and individually squash them while gloating about how superior we are?

Well. Children may do. But I would think a billion year old AI would know better. The Reapers do not only exterminate. They revel in murder and torture. They enjoy it. They are maniacs.

The Reapers and the Catalyst view their position the same.  Destroy the bugs, while keeping them intact in another form to preserve their memory.

Explain why they choose to do this by inflicting as much pain and suffering as possible.

And the Catalyst never "outright" denies killing.

"But you killed the rest."

"We helped them ascend so they could make way for new life, storing the old life in Reaper form."

It deliberately dodges the question about killing anything.

Helped them ascend < sugar-coating a diabolically painful and horrific process.

so they could make way for new life < platitude and justification

storing the old life in Reaper form < outright lie.

Modifié par The Angry One, 24 juin 2012 - 08:16 .

[Ticonderoga117]

thisisme8 wrote...
Because that is their role.

So thus thier creator/controller (GlowBoy for the moment) is crazy.

[The Angry One]

thisisme8 wrote...

XqctaX wrote...
comparing sentinent humanoid spacefaring advanced races to bugs does not really help your argument.

The difference in evolution between us and bugs is smaller than the perceived evolutionary difference between a reaper and a human.

One is sapient. The other is not.
Your defence of Mac Walters' "art" is getting more and more desperate.

Modifié par The Angry One, 24 juin 2012 - 08:16 .

[CuseGirl]

Everyone keeps saying the logistics of creating the endings we wanted was impossible. I call bunk on that. ME-2 featured in-engine cutscenes which showed you the consequences of your choices/actions all game long. Why is that suddenly, in the finale of a trilogy, a game that really SHOULD be delayed, late, overdone, and coddled, that Bioware couldn't deliver?

I don't think the scope of ME-3 or the ME series is too big that we couldn't see what happened to Rannoch, what happened with the Krogan, see what happened with all the possible LI's, see the ME-2 squaddies (either together or apart), and show us if the cleanup of the war effort is going well (based on EMS in my opinion). 

Modifié par CuseGirl, 24 juin 2012 - 08:19 .

[LiarasShield]

I know we could've defeated the reapers without the crucible we have defeated a lot of reapers with our squad and our forces already they aren't invulnerable they can be defeated and I wish we could've gotten that chance with max ems

[bleetman]

The Angry One wrote...

And the Catalyst never "outright" denies killing.

"But you killed the rest."

"We helped them ascend so they could make way for new life, storing the old life in Reaper form."

It deliberately dodges the question about killing anything.

Helped them ascend < sugar-coating a diabolically painful and horrific process.

so they could make way for new life < platitude and justification

storing the old life in Reaper form < outright lie.

Not to mention it responds to the previous accusation that it wipes out organic life with a flat out "no".

[MegaSovereign]

No!

I'm in Control!

No one is telling me what to do!