346 réponses à ce sujet

[CuseGirl]

DungeonHoek wrote...

CuseGirl wrote...
Everyone keeps saying the logistics of creating the endings we wanted was impossible. I call bunk on that. ME-2 featured in-engine cutscenes which showed you the consequences of your choices/actions all game long. Why is that suddenly, in the finale of a trilogy, a game that really SHOULD be delayed, late, overdone, and coddled, that Bioware couldn't deliver?

I don't think the scope of ME-3 or the ME series is too big that we couldn't see what happened to Rannoch, what happened with the Krogan, see what happened with all the possible LI's, see the ME-2 squaddies (either together or apart), and show us if the cleanup of the war effort is going well (based on EMS in my opinion). 

I'm pretty sure the ugly truth is right out infront of us all, we're staring it in the face and we just don't want to actually admit that we're looking at it. Kinda like how someone reacts when they find their house has been broken into.

What, that EA's deadlines and divergence of resources to multiplayer prevented that? I know that's the case but it still pisses me off

[CuseGirl]

@thisisme8

You're one of those auto-trolls that EA hired in Japan right? Has to be

[thisisme8]

The Angry One wrote...

thisisme8 wrote...

It does hold because what matters is how they perceive us, not how we perceive us.

If they refuse to see other sentient beings that they can communicate with as anything other than bugs to squash, then.. guess what? They are genocidal maniacs.

Human history is rife with groups who did not see other humans as equals, as intelligent/civilised, as little more than animals and so on.
Were they right? Were they justified in their actions of slavery and genocide because they refused to see other humans as equals? No. No they weren't, and neither are the Reapers.

Interestingly enough, when confronted by Shepard, the Catalyst acknowledges him.  This is why he decides to change.  No other cycle progressed as far as this one did - more importantly, ever made peace between creator and created.

EDIT:  You keep showing human history as a way to understand what the reapers are doing.  By doing that, you try to understand them based off of your understanding of people, which they are not - which is projecting.

Modifié par thisisme8, 24 juin 2012 - 08:43 .

[The Angry One]

thisisme8 wrote..

I don't know how many times I have to say this, but listen to yourself.  You are projecting your emotions onto him.  It's like saying a dog is mad at you, when the truth is, dogs don't get mad.  They don't seek revenge, they don't do anything like that, but we still say things like that.

And I keep explaining why the Reapers demonstrate this.
You tell me why Sovereign took on such an arrogant title for himself then.

The reapers don't relish in pain and suffering, they simply attend to their role.

Then WHY do they attend to their roles with so much unecesarry and prolonged suffering?

Would you have preferred if Sovereign in ME1 said, "Actually, sorry, but my name is Nazara."  No, he did the same thing the catalyst did in ME3 and took the name given to him by which he would be recognized.

"Reaper. A label created by the Protheans to give voice to their destruction. In the end, what they chose to call us is irrelevant. We simply are."

[LiarasShield]

CuseGirl wrote...

@thisisme8

You're one of those auto-trolls that EA hired in Japan right? Has to be

Hey hey now lets not throw punches at each other I just think we could've defeated the reapers under our own willpower or should've been allowed to I do feel that harbinger should've remained the main antagonist instead of the catalyst who becomes the main antagonist in the last 10 mins tries to poorly explain why his reapers do what they do when they've never needed a explanation before and how the catalyst has the no hints or details of exsistence before the last 10 minutes of the game so no


Harbinger being the finally bad guy would've been ok

[DungeonHoek]

The Angry One wrote...

CuseGirl wrote...

bleetman wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

And the Catalyst never "outright" denies killing.

"But you killed the rest."

"We helped them ascend so they could make way for new life, storing the old life in Reaper form."

It deliberately dodges the question about killing anything.

Helped them ascend < sugar-coating a diabolically painful and horrific process.

so they could make way for new life < platitude and justification

storing the old life in Reaper form < outright lie.

Not to mention it responds to the previous accusation that it wipes out organic life with a flat out "no".

He basically says "well we left the humans alone when we wiped out the protheans last time, what's your problem?"

Not only is the dialogue of the Starchild horrendous, the tone that the child or Mark Meer/Jennifer Hale used was incredibly insulting and condescending. As he's telling what he is, what he represents, he basically chastises you for attempting to question it. How Bioware didn't see an issue with that entire scene is just beyond me.

Because it's art, darling!
What really gets me is that Hudson and Walters continue to not see anything wrong with this.
People make mistakes. Maybe they were pressed for time. But after months of thinking about it, knowing that we have a problem with it... they still think it's acceptable?

I do not get how any rational human being can think this way.

Narsicism is funny that way really.

I knew a guy who wanted to be a writer, was terrible at it. Wrote in script format all the time, his characterization was as flat as a wooden board and about as lively. And his jokes were comparable to a five year olds.

But, no, he was a golden god of  writing. And how dare anyone criticize his artistic merit. He only stole 98% of his material from every sci-fi ever, from Doctor Who, to the video game series Persona, to Terry Pratchet's discworld. But, no, his artistic integrity was unsoiled. And everyone else was slime.

And he would pitch a vicious fit if you proved him wrong.

[The Angry One]

thisisme8 wrote...

Interestingly enough, when confronted by Shepard, the Catalyst acknowledges him.  This is why he decides to change.  No other cycle progressed as far as this one did - more importantly, ever made peace between creator and created.

The Catalyst acknowledges nothing except that Shepard crossed a threshold established in it's mind and now it's solution no longer works for arbitrary reasons. NOTHING that Shepard does is acknowledged by the Catalyst other than that with low EMS the Catalyst is angsty.

[Hudathan]

You have a choice at the end of ME3, and the series has always been about the illusion of control and variations on the same basic narrative.

[The Angry One]

thisisme8 wrote...

EDIT:  You keep showing human history as a way to understand what the reapers are doing.  By doing that, you try to understand them based off of your understanding of people, which they are not - which is projecting.

You are using justifications to make the Reapers appear above us, when humans have used those very same justifications.
They mean nothing, and I'm pointing that out.

[XqctaX]

thisisme8 wrote...

XqctaX wrote...

thisisme8 wrote...

XqctaX wrote...
comparing sentinent humanoid spacefaring advanced races to bugs does not really help your argument.

The difference in evolution between us and bugs is smaller than the perceived evolutionary difference between a reaper and a human.

that is besides the point.
reapers are sentient beeings.
humans are sentient beeings.
bugs are not sentient beeings.  my argument still stands. you made a bad comparison that does not hold 

It does hold because what matters is how they perceive us, not how we perceive us.

they do percive us as sentient, they just dont give a damn about what we think. you know our CHOISE

and its not all up to perception. the act is still evil and not compareble to killing bugs. 
because sentience is necessary for the ability to suffer, which entails certain rights.

that is the factual difference between bugs and humans. and this was about killing humans ( and the other ingame sentient races) beeing an evil/crazy act right? )

[MegaSovereign]

I've devoted my life to understanding the internet, and now I know with certainty that bickering at a forum will allow me to control Bioware.

[CuseGirl]

LiarasShield wrote...

CuseGirl wrote...
@thisisme8
You're one of those auto-trolls that EA hired in Japan right? Has to be

Hey hey now lets not throw punches at each other I just think we could've defeated the reapers under our own willpower or should've been allowed to I do feel that harbinger should've remained the main antagonist instead of the catalyst who becomes the main antagonist in the last 10 mins tries to poorly explain why his reapers do what they do when they've never needed a explanation before and how the catalyst has the no hints or details of exsistence before the last 10 minutes of the game so no

Harbinger being the finally bad guy would've been ok

Sorry. But the myopic tone coming from that guy is too much to bear. Basically the conversation he's having is "how could you not comprehend that the sky is in fact strawberry red? where you got the idea that's it's blue is beyond me. we've known it was strawberry red for quite sometime and now you're coming up with this personal notion that it's blue".

[DRTJR]

thisisme8 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

thisisme8 wrote...

It does hold because what matters is how they perceive us, not how we perceive us.

If they refuse to see other sentient beings that they can communicate with as anything other than bugs to squash, then.. guess what? They are genocidal maniacs.

Human history is rife with groups who did not see other humans as equals, as intelligent/civilised, as little more than animals and so on.
Were they right? Were they justified in their actions of slavery and genocide because they refused to see other humans as equals? No. No they weren't, and neither are the Reapers.

Interestingly enough, when confronted by Shepard, the Catalyst acknowledges him.  This is why he decides to change.  No other cycle progressed as far as this one did - more importantly, ever made peace between creator and created.

He never mentiones the peace between Geth and Quarians, He just says destroy would kill the geth.he knows he's 50 seconds from being whiped the f*ck out and is trying to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat. which happens if you pick blue or green.

[LiarasShield]

Fighting to the end and believing in my forces is what I wanted not gonig with the person who controls the reapers cause I know their not invulerable thanix cannons tactical quarian strikes thresher maws shepard guns and forces against the human reaper and soverign they are not invincible as they think or as alot of people want us to think

[CuseGirl]

Hudathan wrote...

You have a choice at the end of ME3, and the series has always been about the illusion of control and variations on the same basic narrative.

But that's doesn't change the fact that the choices presented detach from the narrative as a whole, don't make ANY sense, AND leave the large majority of players feeling empty and confused.

[Reptilian Rob]

MegaSovereign wrote...

I've devoted my life to understanding the internet, and now I know with certainty that bickering at a forum will allow me to control Bioware.

"No, you're wrong! They are controlling YOU! Don't you see? Calling someone a big fat pucker anus on the internet wont let you control them, you're playing with things you don't understand!"

[thisisme8]

The Angry One wrote...

thisisme8 wrote...

EDIT:  You keep showing human history as a way to understand what the reapers are doing.  By doing that, you try to understand them based off of your understanding of people, which they are not - which is projecting.

You are using justifications to make the Reapers appear above us, when humans have used those very same justifications.
They mean nothing, and I'm pointing that out.

I'll get to your other post in a second, but this is actually key to why we disagree.  I don't make justifications to make the reapers appear above us, I am explaining why the reapers perceive themselves as above us.  In truth, I believe the reapers, for all their talk of superiority, are less sentient than they believe themselves to be...  but the important thing to point out is not them being above us, but that they perceive they are above us.

[MegaSovereign]

You have choice.

Pick your color.

[The Angry One]

Reptilian Rob wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

I've devoted my life to understanding the internet, and now I know with certainty that bickering at a forum will allow me to control Bioware.

"No, you're wrong! They are controlling YOU! Don't you see? Calling someone a big fat pucker anus on the internet wont let you control them, you're playing with things you don't understand!"

*10 seconds later*

So MegaSovereign was right!

*controls the internet*

[LiarasShield]

Don't let them control you are stronger break their hold!

[DungeonHoek]

CuseGirl wrote...

DungeonHoek wrote...

CuseGirl wrote...
Everyone keeps saying the logistics of creating the endings we wanted was impossible. I call bunk on that. ME-2 featured in-engine cutscenes which showed you the consequences of your choices/actions all game long. Why is that suddenly, in the finale of a trilogy, a game that really SHOULD be delayed, late, overdone, and coddled, that Bioware couldn't deliver?

I don't think the scope of ME-3 or the ME series is too big that we couldn't see what happened to Rannoch, what happened with the Krogan, see what happened with all the possible LI's, see the ME-2 squaddies (either together or apart), and show us if the cleanup of the war effort is going well (based on EMS in my opinion). 

I'm pretty sure the ugly truth is right out infront of us all, we're staring it in the face and we just don't want to actually admit that we're looking at it. Kinda like how someone reacts when they find their house has been broken into.

What, that EA's deadlines and divergence of resources to multiplayer prevented that? I know that's the case but it still pisses me off

Well, I'm sure that had some factor in things. But, its in the construction of the game, the attitude, the responses and lack of from Bioware. This is not the action's of someone who set out to make a good game more then it is to jack some good cash.

[TookYoCookies]

The Angry One wrote...

thisisme8 wrote...

EDIT:  You keep showing human history as a way to understand what the reapers are doing.  By doing that, you try to understand them based off of your understanding of people, which they are not - which is projecting.

You are using justifications to make the Reapers appear above us, when humans have used those very same justifications.
They mean nothing, and I'm pointing that out.

Yeah, i figured at first, but his continued posts have confirmed this as fact...: This dude is bat **** crazy.

[MegaSovereign]

Reptilian Rob wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

I've devoted my life to understanding the internet, and now I know with certainty that bickering at a forum will allow me to control Bioware.

"No, you're wrong! They are controlling YOU! Don't you see? Calling someone a big fat pucker anus on the internet wont let you control them, you're playing with things you don't understand!"

Dammit, destroying Bioware gains us nothing. When we discovered memes, it advanced the internet more than 10,000 years. Bioware will do the same for us, ten fold.

[The Angry One]

thisisme8 wrote...

I'll get to your other post in a second, but this is actually key to why we disagree.  I don't make justifications to make the reapers appear above us, I am explaining why the reapers perceive themselves as above us.  In truth, I believe the reapers, for all their talk of superiority, are less sentient than they believe themselves to be...  but the important thing to point out is not them being above us, but that they perceive they are above us.

Yes, I get that's what you meant. The problem here is.. that's what they percieve. That still doesn't justify anything, and still makes them maniacs.
They have convinced themselves we're bugs, but they still go out of their way to cause suffering.

[bleetman]

thisisme8 wrote...

bleetman wrote...

Not to mention it responds to the previous accusation that it wipes out organic life with a flat out "no".

It actually doesn't.  We found a way - by wiping out organic life? - no.  He's not saying he doesn't wipe out organic life, he's saying that wiping out organic life is not "the way,"  harvesting is.

Which is the whole point. It's accused of solving the percieved problem by wiping out organic life. It responds that no, that's not it, and the solution involves harvesting organics and preserving them in reaper form. Fine.

Destroying ships in space is not harvesting. Shooting down evacuation shuttles in mid air is not harvesting. Stomping around on planet surfaces lasering populated buildings is not harvesting. The reapers slaughter a whole lot of people, yet when pressed on the issue, the Catalyst  just ignores the question, going on about its solution and preservation, neither of which have anything to do with the amount of death they're throwing around.