346 réponses à ce sujet

[DRTJR]

The Angry One wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Shepard understood that there was no other way, that the Crucible was it.

This is not an argument. This is propaganda.

I might as well say "Shepard understood there was no other way. Saren's streategy was it."

The Strengths of Both the weaknesses of neither. The reapers are Propaganda machines look at what they did to the science team at the Alpha Relay.

[The Angry One]

thisisme8 wrote...

But think about it.  They perceive the gap between themselves and us as near infinite, but the truth is, they are just tools for the cycle.  Listen to what they say and look at their actions.  Every time they talk it's like they are just reciting a line.  They do the same thing over and over:  Gather enough organics to harvest, kill the rest.  So their sentience is actually only perceived by them, when even the Catalyst says, they are just a solution to a problem.

Now look at the Catalyst.  It's just an AI that came up with a solution to a problem.  Organics evolve to a point where they create synthetics that would eventually destroy the organics.  The cycle is just a solution it came up with and the reapers are just the tools to accomplish the solution.  Their perceived sentience is the mystery here, not whether they are maniacs - I honestly don't think they have the capacity to be anything other than what they are.

Again, I'm arguing from the perspective of a logical being that is taking this course of action.
Yes, let's just assume for a minute that the Catalyst's thoughts and conclusions are logical and not deranged.

A logical being would develop methods to cull the organic population cleanly, efficiently and painlessly. Much like humans will attempt to cull animals painlessly, I would expect an AI that isn't a maniac to use quick and painless methods to kill organics.
Fast acting poisons, nanomachines or whatever. It's had billions of years to develop these methods and hasn't.

Now this wouldn't make it's genocide right. But it would make it's stance understandable on the level of a cold, emotionless machine. What the Catalyst and the Reapers do is not cold and emotionless at all. It is highly destructive, inefficient and malicious.

[Ieldra]

XqctaX wrote...
and its not all up to perception. the act is still evil and not compareble to killing bugs. 
because sentience is necessary for the ability to suffer, which entails certain rights.

Evil is a matter of perception. For beings like the Reapers, who most likely don't feel pain, suffering is irrelevant.

Good or evil are never intrinstic attributes of anything. And rights are rights by convention, not by nature. That some rights are acknowledged by almost all humans doesn't change that, it just makes this a human perspective. The Reapers are not bound by the human perspective. That you think they should be so bound is irrelevant.

The Reapers are enemies that we have no choice but to fight because it's in our nature to want to survive. Morality does not come into it.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 24 juin 2012 - 09:09 .

[The Angry One]

Ieldra2 wrote...

XqctaX wrote...
and its not all up to perception. the act is still evil and not compareble to killing bugs. 
because sentience is necessary for the ability to suffer, which entails certain rights.

Evil is a matter of perception. For beings like the Reapers, who most likely don't feel pain, suffering is irrelevant.

Good or evil are never intrinstic attributes of anything. And rights are rights by convention, not by nature. That some rights are acknowledged by almost all humans doesn't change that, it just makes this a human perspective. The Reapers are not bound by the human perspective. That you think they should be so bound is irrelevant.

Harbinger understands pain.

Oo oO THIS HURTS YOU.

Next.

[Reptilian Rob]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

I've devoted my life to understanding the internet, and now I know with certainty that bickering at a forum will allow me to control Bioware.

"No, you're wrong! They are controlling YOU! Don't you see? Calling someone a big fat pucker anus on the internet wont let you control them, you're playing with things you don't understand!"

Dammit, destroying Bioware gains us nothing. When we discovered memes, it advanced the internet more than 10,000 years. Bioware will do the same for us, ten fold.

You've doomed the fans already, don't you see? Bioware and EA have us fighting each other now!

This isn't about me or you, it's about things much bigger than all of us.

This is the way the internet must evolve.

You've cost us too much already...There's still a way out, you can fight them!

Do you think power like this comes easy? Sacrifices have to be made.

You've sacrificed too much...What happends when you control them? We destroy them, or they destroy us!

[Dean_the_Young]

LiarasShield wrote...

Its about fear your letting fear hold you back or stop you from acheiving great or amazing things I know that we can beat the reapers on our own ground or I'd be willnig to fight till the end no matter what because I won't let fear compromise who I am and hold me or my forces back

There were people who believed that fighting spirit and bravery could overcome anything. They ordered massive assaults on fortified bunkers and machine gun nests.

They were proven wrong.

If 300 spartan soldiers can hold back thousands or millions of persians

...but they didn't.

Besides that it wasn't just 300 Sparts, and the non-applicable geographic context, the Spartans lost.

then a entire galaxy made up of the greatest races the world has ever known can take on or combat the reapers

The Reapers are more galaxies worth of greatest races.

[MegaSovereign]

Ieldra2 wrote...

XqctaX wrote...
and its not all up to perception. the act is still evil and not compareble to killing bugs. 
because sentience is necessary for the ability to suffer, which entails certain rights.

Evil is a matter of perception. For beings like the Reapers, who most likely don't feel pain, suffering is irrelevant.

Good or evil are never intrinstic attributes of anything. And rights are rights by convention, not by nature. That some rights are acknowledged by almost all humans doesn't change that, it just makes this a human perspective. The Reapers are not bound by the human perspective. That you think they should be so bound is irrelevant.

But Harbinger trash talked throughout ME2. It almost sounded like he had a personal grudge on Shepard for killing Sovereign, his romantic and openly gay lover.

[Reptilian Rob]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

XqctaX wrote...
and its not all up to perception. the act is still evil and not compareble to killing bugs. 
because sentience is necessary for the ability to suffer, which entails certain rights.

Evil is a matter of perception. For beings like the Reapers, who most likely don't feel pain, suffering is irrelevant.

Good or evil are never intrinstic attributes of anything. And rights are rights by convention, not by nature. That some rights are acknowledged by almost all humans doesn't change that, it just makes this a human perspective. The Reapers are not bound by the human perspective. That you think they should be so bound is irrelevant.

But Harbinger trash talked throughout ME2. It almost sounded like he had a personal grudge on Shepard for killing Sovereign, his romantic and openly gay lover.

"I am the vanguard of your destruction!"

"THIS HURTS YOU!"

"This exchange is over."

[Dean_the_Young]

The Angry One wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Shepard understood that there was no other way, that the Crucible was it.

This is not an argument. This is propaganda.

It's the analysis of the military experts of the galaxy after seeing many of their conventional bastions crushed in the opening shots of the war, and tallying the course of the war following it. A conventional victory is impossible. The only unconventional victory they can viably pursue is the Crucible: it may not work, but the alternative will not work.

I might as well say "Shepard understood there was no other way. Saren's streategy was it."

You would be making an unsupported claim.

[MegaSovereign]

Reptilian Rob wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

I've devoted my life to understanding the internet, and now I know with certainty that bickering at a forum will allow me to control Bioware.

"No, you're wrong! They are controlling YOU! Don't you see? Calling someone a big fat pucker anus on the internet wont let you control them, you're playing with things you don't understand!"

Dammit, destroying Bioware gains us nothing. When we discovered memes, it advanced the internet more than 10,000 years. Bioware will do the same for us, ten fold.

You've doomed the fans already, don't you see? Bioware and EA have us fighting each other now!

This isn't about me or you, it's about things much bigger than all of us.

This is the way the internet must evolve.

You've cost us too much already...There's still a way out, you can fight them!

Do you think power like this comes easy? Sacrifices have to be made.

You've sacrificed too much...What happends when you control them? We destroy them, or they destroy us!

If I can control Bioware, I can take what I want for them.

I can then retcon the ending and make it my own.

[thisisme8]

Ieldra2 wrote...

XqctaX wrote...
and its not all up to perception. the act is still evil and not compareble to killing bugs. 
because sentience is necessary for the ability to suffer, which entails certain rights.

Evil is a matter of perception. For beings like the Reapers, who most likely don't feel pain, suffering is irrelevant.

Good or evil are never intrinstic attributes of anything. And rights are rights by convention, not by nature. That some rights are acknowledged by almost all humans doesn't change that, it just makes this a human perspective. The Reapers are not bound by the human perspective. That you think they should be so bound is irrelevant.

The Reapers are enemies that we have no choice but to fight because it's in our nature to want to survive. Morality does not come into it.

Pretty much this.  To project a human perspective on things that aren't human is why we think they are evil.

When a new lion becomes the leader of a pack, they kill all the children of the old leader.  As humans, we view this as evil and unnecessary, but lions aren't humans.

[Dean_the_Young]

Mr.House wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

The PR department have told us that the brat is a "being of light" which is supposed to fight "machine devils". The codex of Klencory mentions their existence in two games. Do I believe the PR? Don't ask me.

Which is bs since Starbrat is not fighting "machine devils."

In this cycle? No. In other cycles? The Catalyst creates with the intent to oppose AI, which could qualify, and in other cycles the Reapers may have been involved in fighting synthetics as well.

[danby]

they ran out of time.....

[DRTJR]

MegaSovereign wrote...
But Harbinger trash talked throughout ME2. It almost sounded like he had a personal grudge on Shepard for killing Sovereign, his romantic and openly gay lover.

This is now my sig.

[thisisme8]

The Angry One wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

XqctaX wrote...
and its not all up to perception. the act is still evil and not compareble to killing bugs. 
because sentience is necessary for the ability to suffer, which entails certain rights.

Evil is a matter of perception. For beings like the Reapers, who most likely don't feel pain, suffering is irrelevant.

Good or evil are never intrinstic attributes of anything. And rights are rights by convention, not by nature. That some rights are acknowledged by almost all humans doesn't change that, it just makes this a human perspective. The Reapers are not bound by the human perspective. That you think they should be so bound is irrelevant.

Harbinger understands pain.

Oo oO THIS HURTS YOU.

Next.

Which only shows that Harbinger understood the human perception as much as you understand the reaper perception.

[CuseGirl]

DungeonHoek wrote...
Well, you just said it yourself friend. They'll make money in the SHORT TERM. Fast, sure. Maybe even alot.

But that's a problem with todays movies and entertainment. They focus far too much on the short term. And that is very bad.

Because in the short term you will make alot of money, in the long term, you will not have an established fanbase to keep coming back and pumping money into your products.

Look at the Aliens franchise, its pretty much over 40 years old. It's had some "meh" movies, and some "bleh" movies. But from 2 great movies, you've had years of comics, toy sales, video games, all sorts of junk. And within a year, ANOTHER GAME. Just after a movie which is said to be pretty good. With two more movies on the to-do list, maybe 3.

That's a long term fanbase. That's a fanbase that will be feeding the beast its money for decades more. Probably until you and I and everyone on this forum drops dead from old age.

But here, what we have is Mass Effect, and yes, its been going strong up until now. But with everything that has taken place. Between Dragon Age and especially this, I don't think we'll see that.

And I don't think they'll really care either.

I mean, the first single player DLC they come out with that we have to pay for, I'll be very surprised if the sales on that are as high as they expect. There's so much contempt swirling around this franchise and the "core" fans are so upset, I don't see them flocking to the XMB or Dashbord or whatever and emptying out the wallet.

Now, they supposedly made ME-3 in such a way to attract the CoD/Gears crowd but the game sold 3 million copies rather quickly. Those aren't new gamers, those are Bioware fans and people who picked up on the game with ME-2. Those people know what the game SHOULD have been and I dont think those people will be doling out their money in the future.

[The Angry One]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

The PR department have told us that the brat is a "being of light" which is supposed to fight "machine devils". The codex of Klencory mentions their existence in two games. Do I believe the PR? Don't ask me.

Which is bs since Starbrat is not fighting "machine devils."

In this cycle? No. In other cycles? The Catalyst creates with the intent to oppose AI, which could qualify, and in other cycles the Reapers may have been involved in fighting synthetics as well.

Yeah like the Geth. Who they took control of and used to exterminate organics.
Or the Zha'til. Who they took control of and used to exterminate organics.

Bang up job of fighting those machine devils!

[MegaSovereign]

danby wrote...

they ran out of time.....

Or they sensed that EA was planning to milk the series. So they super nova'd their lore before EA could touch it.

The Arrival DLC was the foreshadowing of this.

Come on people, the clues are there.

[The Angry One]

thisisme8 wrote...

Which only shows that Harbinger understood the human perception as much as you understand the reaper perception.

As in, very well? Because Harbinger's attacks do in fact hurt. A lot. You want to try getting hit with one of his biotic mudpies in the face on the highest difficulty.
Are you agreeing with me now?

Modifié par The Angry One, 24 juin 2012 - 09:18 .

[Reptilian Rob]

MegaSovereign wrote...

danby wrote...

they ran out of time.....

Or they sensed that EA was planning to milk the series. So they super nova'd their lore before EA could touch it.

The Arrival DLC was the foreshadowing of this.

Come on people, the clues are there.

Definitly, tourch the franchise and run seems the most logical thing to do when EA is afoot. 

[Izhalezan]

The Angry One wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

The PR department have told us that the brat is a "being of light" which is supposed to fight "machine devils". The codex of Klencory mentions their existence in two games. Do I believe the PR? Don't ask me.

Which is bs since Starbrat is not fighting "machine devils."

In this cycle? No. In other cycles? The Catalyst creates with the intent to oppose AI, which could qualify, and in other cycles the Reapers may have been involved in fighting synthetics as well.

Yeah like the Geth. Who they took control of and used to exterminate organics.
Or the Zha'til. Who they took control of and used to exterminate organics.

Bang up job of fighting those machine devils!

Fighting fire with fire makes more fire, which means we win!

[thisisme8]

Hudathan wrote...

The choices made sense just fine for me and they were very relevant to the story I experienced over the course of three games, in fact the ending made me rethink the entire series and took the story to a whole new level. I wasn't confused and I know I wasn't the only one. Apparently it just works for me so what can I say.

Interesting thing about this. . .

What we learn in ME1:
Synthetics and Organics are at war.
The Citadel is more than it seems.
Galactic civilization is a delicate thing.
One Reaper is nearly indestructible.
More are coming.

What happens in ME3:
Synthetics and Organics are at war.
The Citadel is more than is seems.
Galactic civilization is a delicate thing.
One Reaper is nearly indestructible.
More Reapers showed up.

[thisisme8]

The Angry One wrote...

thisisme8 wrote...

Which only shows that Harbinger understood the human perception as much as you understand the reaper perception.

As in, very well? Because Harbinger's attacks do in fact hurt. A lot. You want to try getting hit with one of his biotic mudpies in the face on the highest difficulty.
Are you agreeing with me now?

I do believe that Harbinger was referring to Shepard opposing him as what is hurting, not his attacks.

[Hudathan]

thisisme8 wrote...

Hudathan wrote...

The choices made sense just fine for me and they were very relevant to the story I experienced over the course of three games, in fact the ending made me rethink the entire series and took the story to a whole new level. I wasn't confused and I know I wasn't the only one. Apparently it just works for me so what can I say.

Interesting thing about this. . .

What we learn in ME1:
Synthetics and Organics are at war.
The Citadel is more than it seems.
Galactic civilization is a delicate thing.
One Reaper is nearly indestructible.
More are coming.

What happens in ME3:
Synthetics and Organics are at war.
The Citadel is more than is seems.
Galactic civilization is a delicate thing.
One Reaper is nearly indestructible.
More Reapers showed up.

Add to that the inherent danger of fully conscious AI's, their ability to subert entire infrastructures, and how powerless we would be if it went out of control. Or the fact that the Citadel and Relays are based on technology presumably left by Protheans but proven false, implying a great power that stretches back eons of time. All this and much more were central to the themes of the ending, I don't see how anyone can simply deny the connection between the ending and the entire series.

[The Angry One]

thisisme8 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

thisisme8 wrote...

Which only shows that Harbinger understood the human perception as much as you understand the reaper perception.

As in, very well? Because Harbinger's attacks do in fact hurt. A lot. You want to try getting hit with one of his biotic mudpies in the face on the highest difficulty.
Are you agreeing with me now?

I do believe that Harbinger was referring to Shepard opposing him as what is hurting, not his attacks.

"I KNOW YOU FEEL THIS, SHEPARD"

*throws attack*