364 réponses à ce sujet

[The Revolut]

Erixxxx wrote...

And there has been no recorded occurences of synthetic-organic cooperation up until our cycle. That is a cold, hard fact.

That is the point.

The cycles were eliminated at the apex of conflict and nobody could learn from their mistakes.

[The Revolut]

Alright, I've had enough of this thread and nonsensical argument.

When the metaarguing begins, it's gone too far.

[Erixxxx]

Funny. Running away when we finally get to the core of the issue.

[The Revolut]

Erixxxx wrote...

Funny. Running away when we finally get to the core of the issue.

Please. We've been over and back for the past two hours. You have yet to provide anything different from the beginning of the argument.

There's nothing more to say.

[Iakus]

Erixxxx wrote...

The Revolut wrote...

Jesus, don't even start that. You have yet to predicate any of your argument on concrete evidence.

Furthermore, it is a logical extension based upon the premise that the cycles are inherently similar.

Yes, I will start that. The Catalyst's logic is based on occurences before he was put into action. And there has been no recorded occurences of synthetic-organic cooperation up until our cycle. That is a cold, hard fact.

The cycles may be similar, but they are not identical.

Might be because the Reapers wipe out virtually all trace of previous civilizations.  Barely anything was known of the Protheans, and they were just from the last cycle.  Heck they didn't even know the Prothean Empire was made up of multiple species!

We only have what's in front of us, and what's in front of us says organics and synthetics can cooperate at least as well as organics and organics.

[TransientNomad]

What it comes down to is this. The Catalysts arguement is logical insofar as they NEED it to be true. Without it it, the Reapers themselves serve no purpose, having already reached the pinnacle of their own existance (at least in their own mind). Where the logic is flawed, is that this synthetic apocholypse has never actually come to pass, despite their predictions. Perhaps in some cycles the organics were on there way to being destroyed, but in other cycles, like the prothean and current cycle, AI's were not really truly the enemy. They have no proof that would always, 100%, AI's and organics could never learn to co-exist.

But to the Catalyst and the Reapers, they can't acknowledge that. Call it the basis of their programing or their religous doctrine, but they cannot accept that they may be wrong. To do so would mean they truly serve no purpose, or at least a purpose that puts them on the same social level as any other species.

[Erixxxx]

The Revolut wrote...

Erixxxx wrote...

Funny. Running away when we finally get to the core of the issue.

Please. We've been over and back for the past two hours. You have yet to provide anything different from the beginning of the argument.

There's nothing more to say.

You're still here? Good.

There has been no cooperation between synthetics and organics prior to our cycle. Neither during the cycles nor before. The Catalyst's logic is based on that. It's cold calculus. If something has been observed 100% of the time, you will assume it to happen again.

Same thing is mentioned if you bring Legion to Tali's trial. Zaal'Koris asks if Legion believes there could be peace between the Quarians and the Geth. Legion answers that the Geth would need to see substantial arguments for it to happen, due to the fact that 100% of the times that Quarians believed they had the upper hand, they have attacked. As such, being the computers they are, they act on that fact, and on that fact alone, until they see anything different. Same goes for the Catalyst. It is the way computers think. If it has happened 100% of the times in the past, it will happen again.

Also, in the grand scale of things, 1 billion years can either be a lot. Or very little, considering that the Milky Way is believed to be 13.2 billion years old. If you have observed the same pattern occuring 100% of the time for billions of years with no exceptions, you will act accordingly to that.

[thisisme8]

The Revolut wrote...

thisisme8 wrote...

That's the problem, you repeat the same thing regardless of the subject or context.  When I broke your argument down and showed that you have no substance, you countered with a childish retort.  For all your talk of logic, you have no idea how it actually works within context.  You can only spew what you learned in english class about speech-giving instead of critically thinking about the subject matter at hand.

Good, good. Let the butthurt flow through you.

In all seriousness, folks, this is a grade-a case of error disputatio--or, in English, a delusional argument (approximation). The problem with your assertion was that you did not break anything down; you have yet to prove anything to the contrary of me.

Which just shows that you have no concept of reality past what someone has taught you in a book.  Your "Logic is Universal" argument proves it.  Your constant reliance on institutionalized theory that is "irrefutable" even when proven irrelevent or wrong adds to it.

You say that the ending is illogical because of a human concept of logic without context or perception goes against what you learned in school.  The truth is, it's illogical to you because you don't understand the choice - which is fine.  Understanding the choice of a being that is not human is almost impossible because we can't perceive things as they do.  To claim that they are illogical, or worse, compare them to other humans is your mistake.

But whatever, your entire argument hinges on your perception of logic being applied to a being that does not conform to our nature.  That's like saying people in 1204 were illogical to think the earth was flat.  According to everything they perceived, the earth was actually flat.  So they weren't wrong.  You think the Catalyst is illogical, when it is making decisions based off of a perception far greater than ours - that may supercede our current logic much the same way the earth being round now supercedes the logic that it was flat.

[Erixxxx]

iakus wrote...

Might be because the Reapers wipe out virtually all trace of previous civilizations.  Barely anything was known of the Protheans, and they were just from the last cycle.  Heck they didn't even know the Prothean Empire was made up of multiple species!

We only have what's in front of us, and what's in front of us says organics and synthetics can cooperate at least as well as organics and organics.

Prior to the cycle, which is what the Catalyst's logic is based on. If there's one thing he is adamant on, it's that the created will always turn on the creators. Everything else he says is "can" and "if you want".

[darthoptimus003]

the reapers created the cycle
why
cause they get off on the mass murder of races that dont deserve what the reapers inpose on them
in all seriousness
the point of the cycle was to elemanate the threat that synthetics would do to organics
but the reapers are synthetic and they have murdered countless people
so in logic they are doing what they are trying to prevent tell me how that makes since
and ask yourself this
would you want to be melted down or would you die trying to prevent what is being done to you and would happen to future people
me if i where to choose id die to prevent this atrocity from happening ever agian and id try and take as many of the reapers i could with me
and with the options we have NONE ask that question
destroy= kill geth {which are innocent as it turns out well some at any rate} and edi who loves a human
control=reapers leave to comeback later to start the killing over again
synthisis=turning everyone into a borg without there concinet which imho is no better then what the reapers are doing to us
and you cant say there are saving us
they liquidfied us which is killing
we are living things that would rather die than what the reapers force us to be come if we let them have their way
become one of those murderous ba***** and help them do to others what was done to us

[darthoptimus003]

Erixxxx wrote...

iakus wrote...

Might be because the Reapers wipe out virtually all trace of previous civilizations.  Barely anything was known of the Protheans, and they were just from the last cycle.  Heck they didn't even know the Prothean Empire was made up of multiple species!

We only have what's in front of us, and what's in front of us says organics and synthetics can cooperate at least as well as organics and organics.

Prior to the cycle, which is what the Catalyst's logic is based on. If there's one thing he is adamant on, it's that the created will always turn on the creators. Everything else he says is "can" and "if you want".

accually the qurians turned on the geth and the geth was acting in self perservation i have no problem with that 
so the starbrat is wrong

[Iakus]

Erixxxx wrote...

iakus wrote...

Might be because the Reapers wipe out virtually all trace of previous civilizations.  Barely anything was known of the Protheans, and they were just from the last cycle.  Heck they didn't even know the Prothean Empire was made up of multiple species!

We only have what's in front of us, and what's in front of us says organics and synthetics can cooperate at least as well as organics and organics.

Prior to the cycle, which is what the Catalyst's logic is based on. If there's one thing he is adamant on, it's that the created will always turn on the creators. Everything else he says is "can" and "if you want".

To all appearances, the Catalyst's logic is based on the Infinite Monkey Theorem  THere is no supporting evidence to his claims.  None.  Because the Reapers destroyed it.

Modifié par iakus, 25 juin 2012 - 02:48 .

[thisisme8]

iakus wrote...

Erixxxx wrote...

iakus wrote...

Might be because the Reapers wipe out virtually all trace of previous civilizations.  Barely anything was known of the Protheans, and they were just from the last cycle.  Heck they didn't even know the Prothean Empire was made up of multiple species!

We only have what's in front of us, and what's in front of us says organics and synthetics can cooperate at least as well as organics and organics.

Prior to the cycle, which is what the Catalyst's logic is based on. If there's one thing he is adamant on, it's that the created will always turn on the creators. Everything else he says is "can" and "if you want".

To all appearances, the Catalyst's logic is based on the Infinite Monkey Theorem  THere is no supporting evidence to his claims.  None.  Because the Reapers destroyed it.

Here we go again.  You kids are just so smart.

[thisisme8]

Opsrbest wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Appeals to probability and to one's own authority are not sound logic and never will be no matter how "beyond our comprehension" a being gets.

Oddly enough this post made me think of David Icke.

Oddly enough, logic is based off of perception, which makes me think of Carmine Falcone.

[darthoptimus003]

darthoptimus003 wrote...

the reapers created the cycle
why
cause they get off on the mass murder of races that dont deserve what the reapers inpose on them
in all seriousness
the point of the cycle was to elemanate the threat that synthetics would do to organics
but the reapers are synthetic and they have murdered countless people
so in logic they are doing what they are trying to prevent tell me how that makes since
and ask yourself this
would you want to be melted down or would you die trying to prevent what is being done to you and would happen to future people
me if i where to choose id die to prevent this atrocity from happening ever agian and id try and take as many of the reapers i could with me
and with the options we have NONE ask that question
destroy= kill geth {which are innocent as it turns out well some at any rate} and edi who loves a human
control=reapers leave to comeback later to start the killing over again
synthisis=turning everyone into a borg without there concinet which imho is no better then what the reapers are doing to us
and you cant say there are saving us
they liquidfied us which is killing
we are living things that would rather die than what the reapers force us to be come if we let them have their way
become one of those murderous ba***** and help them do to others what was done to us

this was just my opion

[thisisme8]

Opsrbest wrote...

thisisme8 wrote...

Opsrbest wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Appeals to probability and to one's own authority are not sound logic and never will be no matter how "beyond our comprehension" a being gets.

Oddly enough this post made me think of David Icke.

Oddly enough, logic is based off of perception, which makes me think of Carmine Falcone.

I'm sorry, I don't know enough about the Batman Universe to understand your comment.

This is a world you'll never understand. And you always fear what you don't understand.

That's a quote from Batman Begins.  I say that because logic only makes sense in context, and without it, we believe it to be illogical.  Shepard (and inherently, the player) can't possibly understand the motivations and logic of the reapers because we'll never understand the context in which their decisions are/were made.  It's why we fear them so much, and why some players hate the Catalyst, because we can't understand him.

Modifié par thisisme8, 25 juin 2012 - 03:53 .

[thisisme8]

Opsrbest wrote...

Ok. And how does that relate to my comment, that TAOs comment, reminded me of David Ickle?

It only relates to TAO's comment.  I'm sorry for letting you down.

[Erield]

Erixxxx wrote...

The Revolut wrote...

Erixxxx wrote...

Funny. Running away when we finally get to the core of the issue.

Please. We've been over and back for the past two hours. You have yet to provide anything different from the beginning of the argument.

There's nothing more to say.

You're still here? Good.

There has been no cooperation between synthetics and organics prior to our cycle. Neither during the cycles nor before. The Catalyst's logic is based on that. It's cold calculus. If something has been observed 100% of the time, you will assume it to happen again.

False.  Javik tells us about the Zha'Til, a race of organics implanted with synthetic AIs.  They lived cooperatively until the Reapers came and subjugated the synthetics--who then took over the organic's bodies, and turned them into what seemed to be proto-Collectors.  You can find info on them from the wikia here.

@OP:  The overall story isn't strong.  It's decent, but has some rather big flaws (quite apart from the ending).  What Bioware did a great job on was creating an interesting universe for a bunch of awesome characters to play in. 

Beyond that, the Catalyst's logic is not sound.  Its arguments are flawed at the outset.  The Reapers are synthetic (they are created.)  The thing he is most scared of (synthetics) is also his solution (to organics creating synthetics.)  Since the created will always rebel, the Reapers will rebel; since they are the most advanced and destructive force in the galaxy, when they rebel there will be nothing to stand against them.  With nothing to stand against them, they will wipe out all organic life in the galaxy.  His argument is pants-on-head retarded at the very outset if you use even 10 braincells.  This is completely disregarding the very correct arguments that TAO and Taboo have presented earlier.

[KimGulch]

So I've been reading this thread and I feel there are a few things that need to be cleared up:

1. This is somewhat irrelevant to the discussion of this thread, but everyone seems to be labouring under the assumption that that the Reapers are synthetics. This is only partly true, as multiple times throughout the series the Reapers are stated to be bio-synthetic hybrids. This means that whilst they are partly synthetic, they are also partly organic. Again, not that relevant to this thread, but I wanted to clear it up.

2. The Catalyst/Reapers goal is not to save "the creators" from "the created", but to save organic life as a whole. The Catalyst's solution is based on the following logic:
-based on historical evidence, war is inevitable for organics (either with each other or synthetics)
-if a technological singularity is reached, synthetics will no longer need organics as they will be capable of self-evolution
-if war (which is inevitable) begins between post-singularity synthetics and organics, synthetic logic dictates that as they no longer need organics, the only solution to prevent future war is to destroy ALL organics
-Therefore, the only way to prevent the destruction of ALL organic life is to "ascend" (covered in next point) all civilizations that close to a technological singularity, thereby allowing much less advanced races to continue to flourish.

3. The Reapers do not see individuality in the same way as we do. The Reapers are "each one a nation" (or something like that, can't remember Sovereign's exact quote). They are a massive collection of "ascended" souls. When Reapers liquefy beings, they preserve the beings knowledge and essence and combine all these essences into a reaper. The Reapers view this as ascending to a higher form of being.

Anyway, sorry for waffling on, but I hope this helped clear some things up.

[gmboy902]

That logic was not sound. The "kill you for your own good" logic has been around in some form or another for years, and the only two prominent endings I see in stories with such villains are complete destruction or a giant "f*** you" as the protagonist defeats the enemy despite their warnings.

Mass Effect 3 is the only story I've seen in which the antagonist applies the salvation through destruction logic and the protagonist agrees with it. What makes that more insulting is the fact that Mass Effect 3 is supposed to be an RPG where your decisions shape each aspect of the story.

[KimGulch]

Try to think of the whole thing as pruning. Organic life is a tree, and if synthetic life is allowed to reach a singularity the tree will die and and the only way to prevent that is for the reapers to trim back the bigger branches.