364 réponses à ce sujet

[Armass81]

brummyuk19 wrote...

v0rt3x22 wrote...

I'd start to talk about "IT" - but I don't feel like being flammed today.

If the IT is true, I applaud bioware. If it is not, I still think the logic is sound, it just needs to be put across better and more things need to be explained. ie. when did it all start, what race created the reapers etc.

The race that started the reapers clearly tough like Javik does:



"All machines commit treachery. The one you brought on board is no diifferent."

Modifié par Armass81, 24 juin 2012 - 07:33 .

[Nightwriter]

Erixxxx wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Furthermore, the Catalyst harvests us to save us from a cycle that it itself helps to create. By leaving the mass relays and the Citadel for us to find, it shapes our development and ensures that current cycles happen the way past cycles have. It contributes to the problem. That is illogical from any perspective, organic or synthetic -- or anything in between.

We do not know what came before the Reapers. How the galaxy looked back then. It is quite possible that the scenarios that have been playing out after the Reapers were created are actually better than what was happening before. Something must have happened that convinced the Reapers' creators that the current extinction cycle is preferrable.

I think that's a bit shaky. For instance, I could see a scenario where a race of organics, in the last stages of a synthetic war where they were quickly becoming extinct, created the Catalyst with a simple instruction (come up with a solution for the cycle) but died before they could observe the outcome or give it further instruction.

Meaning it's possible the Catalyst came up with a solution that its creator(s) wouldn't have approved of at all. Which, imo, is quite plausible, given what it actually came up with.

[Baa Baa]

You shouldn't be giving BioWare anything

[Code_R]

essarr71 wrote...

No logic at all.

[KDD-0063]

I could go on for hours about ME3 ending's problems before even coming to the god child's logic. It's not the root of all problems; DEM and space magic is the most jarring at least to me, but I can see it is glaring to most players.
For me, I don't think his logic matters, because the god child is entitled to his own opinion, we just need to agree or disagree. However, the DEM and space magic is terrible, the presentation is also terrible.

[Barict78]

Herr Igor wrote...

No!!! The logic of the star-whatever makes no sense. It's a logical fallacy. A commom exercise in paradoxical thinking. Like in "which came first the chicken or the egg?".

Ill never get how people dont see this.... Its as if they have blinders on and willingly accept whatever crap BW shoves down their throats. His "Logic" is infact the a Paradox ... Not to mention one cannot arbitrarily(sp i kno) just say well theyll wipe out all organics without SOME sort of frakkin proof Besides "cuz i said so and im a little glowy boy so i MUST be right"

[ForThessia]

essarr71 wrote...

I disagree. No logic at all.

[brummyuk19]

GreatArchimedes wrote...

brummyuk19 wrote...

Yes, sound logic. They harvest organic beings into reaper form to preserve them and to stop them from creating a synthetic life that will surpass organics and wipe out ALL organic life, down to the microbes. We may not agree with it, but it is logical.

No, they don't wipe out ALL organic life, only the advanced ones. Recall that Catalyst said to Shepard that humans were left unharvested in the previous cycle.

I must admit, concept is good but lacks a good and thorough exposition. I think it would be very dumb to conclude the trilogy as Reapers being some kind of deity. It doesn't fit the lore. Also, you must note that Shepard recieves explanation from the AI regarding Reapers, not from the Reapers alone. So, being them as 'beyond comprehension' is their premise. For all we know,  they may not be aware of Catalyst existence at all.

You misunderstand, I said the reapers are preventing us from creating synthetics that will wipe out ALL life, not that the reapers are doing so.  They harvest advanced civilizations before we are able to create these god like synthetics. And that is true, I am not sure where to catalyst fits into the reaper situation, because there is just to much speculation and not enough info...mation... see what I did there? Clever me. lol.

[Mcfly616]

I'm sorry.....was the word "Logic" used in the same sentence as StarBrat?!

Pass what you smoking, Chief

[KDD-0063]

brummyuk19 wrote...

GreatArchimedes wrote...

brummyuk19 wrote...

Yes, sound logic. They harvest organic beings into reaper form to preserve them and to stop them from creating a synthetic life that will surpass organics and wipe out ALL organic life, down to the microbes. We may not agree with it, but it is logical.

No, they don't wipe out ALL organic life, only the advanced ones. Recall that Catalyst said to Shepard that humans were left unharvested in the previous cycle.

I must admit, concept is good but lacks a good and thorough exposition. I think it would be very dumb to conclude the trilogy as Reapers being some kind of deity. It doesn't fit the lore. Also, you must note that Shepard recieves explanation from the AI regarding Reapers, not from the Reapers alone. So, being them as 'beyond comprehension' is their premise. For all we know,  they may not be aware of Catalyst existence at all.

You misunderstand, I said the reapers are preventing us from creating synthetics that will wipe out ALL life, not that the reapers are doing so.  They harvest advanced civilizations before we are able to create these god like synthetics. And that is true, I am not sure where to catalyst fits into the reaper situation, because there is just to much speculation and not enough info...mation... see what I did there? Clever me. lol.

Try put yourself in the shoes of a race who is being harvested by the reapers.

[Erixxxx]

Nightwriter wrote...

I think that's a bit shaky. For instance, I could see a scenario where a race of organics, in the last stages of a synthetic war where they were quickly becoming extinct, created the Catalyst with a simple instruction (come up with a solution for the cycle) but died before they could observe the outcome or give it further instruction.

Meaning it's possible the Catalyst came up with a solution that its creator(s) wouldn't have approved of at all. Which, imo, is quite plausible, given what it actually came up with.

Quite possible too. We don't know how much information the Catalyst had to work with when it came up with the solution.

Or for that matter that the creators were organics in the first place.

[Erixxxx]

KDD-0063 wrote...

Try put yourself in the shoes of a race who is being harvested by the reapers.

Likewise, try on the shoes of the Catalyst. The Reapers are huge nigh-immortal constructs who are created from members of a species that has been melted together into a hive-mind or super-being of sorts. Legion mentions this in ME2. True transcendence. From a machine's perspective that would be absolute perfection. Each species' culture and history will be preserved for all eternity without the risk of being destroyed by synthetics and lost to time.

Modifié par Erixxxx, 24 juin 2012 - 07:53 .

[GreatArchimedes]

brummyuk19 wrote...

GreatArchimedes wrote...

brummyuk19 wrote...

Yes, sound logic. They harvest organic beings into reaper form to preserve them and to stop them from creating a synthetic life that will surpass organics and wipe out ALL organic life, down to the microbes. We may not agree with it, but it is logical.

No, they don't wipe out ALL organic life, only the advanced ones. Recall that Catalyst said to Shepard that humans were left unharvested in the previous cycle.

I must admit, concept is good but lacks a good and thorough exposition. I think it would be very dumb to conclude the trilogy as Reapers being some kind of deity. It doesn't fit the lore. Also, you must note that Shepard recieves explanation from the AI regarding Reapers, not from the Reapers alone. So, being them as 'beyond comprehension' is their premise. For all we know,  they may not be aware of Catalyst existence at all.

You misunderstand, I said the reapers are preventing us from creating synthetics that will wipe out ALL life, not that the reapers are doing so.  They harvest advanced civilizations before we are able to create these god like synthetics. And that is true, I am not sure where to catalyst fits into the reaper situation, because there is just to much speculation and not enough info...mation... see what I did there? Clever me. lol.

Sorry, I missed your point in the first reading. I kind od miss some general information regarding Reapers. Atleast Catalyst as the creator of them could give us this answers. But Shepard being as inquisitve as he/she usually is, doesn't gets so much answers from Catalyst. To bad. 

[brummyuk19]

Erixxxx wrote...

KDD-0063 wrote...

Try put yourself in the shoes of a race who is being harvested by the reapers.

Likewise, try on the shoes of the Catalyst. The Reapers are huge nigh-immortal constructs who are created from members of a species that has been melted together into a hive-mind or super-being of sorts. Legion mentions this in ME2. True transcendence. From a machine's perspective that would be absolute perfection. Each species' culture and history will be preserved for all eternity without the risk of being destroyed by synthetics and lost to time.

Exactly, you put that really well. We have to look at it from a machines perspective as well, and since we are organics, we find it hard to. So that's why we can not comprehend the magnitude of what they do, because to us it is just genocide.

[Barict78]

Erixxxx wrote...

KDD-0063 wrote...

Try put yourself in the shoes of a race who is being harvested by the reapers.

Likewise, try on the shoes of the Catalyst. The Reapers are huge nigh-immortal constructs who are created from members of a species that has been melted together into a hive-mind or super-being of sorts. Legion mentions this in ME2. True transcendence. From a machine's perspective that would be absolute perfection. Each species' culture and history will be preserved for all eternity without the risk of being destroyed by synthetics and lost to time.

Personally id rather take that "Risk" and determine my own destiny as apose to some Glowing Brat telling me what i have to do. If they revolt and we all die so be it at least we fought the good fight . The way StarBrat wants it done is just... well inhuman. Ill keep my Humanity thank u very much

[Xellith]

brummyuk19 wrote...

The actual story behind Mass Effect is pretty good, and the writing is ok in it's self. The star childs logic is sound, it was just the WAY it was presented to the player that was bad. We were not told much, told to accept something as if it were truth and not given any way to deny or rebel against it, we just had to accept it. How that was played out was poor, and I hope the EC will rectify that. 

But as a whole, I can see myself replaying Mass Effect 1, 2 and 3 again if the EC fills in the plot holes and gives us the closure we want. Also it would be nice to see more of our war assets in battle. Other than that, I have no problem with the writing.

The logic is sound once you have all the details, it's just the fact I had to come on the internet and read for hours to understand it that annoyed me, because of how poorly it was put across.

Thoughts?

wut?

[ForThessia]

Catalyst is FOS. everything he says is crap and makes no sense "we kill you all now cuz we dont want you to make something that kills you all later"............o.k

[The Revolut]

brummyuk19 wrote...

The star childs logic is sound, it was just the WAY it was presented to the player that was bad.

Thoughts?

Thoughts?

Eugenics, Genocide, or Slavery all based upon a premise proven inherently false IN THE NARRATIVE?

No. He's wrong and it's foolish to say his logic is sound when the narrative, of all things, disagrees.

[Nightwriter]

Erixxxx wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

I think that's a bit shaky. For instance, I could see a scenario where a race of organics, in the last stages of a synthetic war where they were quickly becoming extinct, created the Catalyst with a simple instruction (come up with a solution for the cycle) but died before they could observe the outcome or give it further instruction.

Meaning it's possible the Catalyst came up with a solution that its creator(s) wouldn't have approved of at all. Which, imo, is quite plausible, given what it actually came up with.

Quite possible too. We don't know how much information the Catalyst had to work with when it came up with the solution.

Or for that matter that the creators were organics in the first place.

It always comes back to SPECULATIONS, doesn't it.

[vixvicco]

brummyuk19 wrote...

Yes, sound logic. They harvest organic beings into reaper form to preserve them and to stop them from creating a synthetic life that will surpass organics and wipe out ALL organic life, down to the microbes. We may not agree with it, but it is logical.

It sounds more like the Reapers fear being surpassed by either organics, or the synthetics that organics "will" create. That's more logical to me. This would mean their immediate destruction, something the Starchild even admitted when he said "this proves my plan won't work anymore" (referring to Shepard being the first organic to pretty much defeat/get close to defeating the Reapers). When Shepard reached the StarChild, he had proven that organics had advanced well enough to destroy the Reapers.

Modifié par vixvicco, 24 juin 2012 - 08:03 .

[brummyuk19]

Nightwriter wrote...

Erixxxx wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

I think that's a bit shaky. For instance, I could see a scenario where a race of organics, in the last stages of a synthetic war where they were quickly becoming extinct, created the Catalyst with a simple instruction (come up with a solution for the cycle) but died before they could observe the outcome or give it further instruction.

Meaning it's possible the Catalyst came up with a solution that its creator(s) wouldn't have approved of at all. Which, imo, is quite plausible, given what it actually came up with.

Quite possible too. We don't know how much information the Catalyst had to work with when it came up with the solution.

Or for that matter that the creators were organics in the first place.

It always comes back to SPECULATIONS, doesn't it.

And that is what is wrong with the ending... Not the logic, the lack of infomation. Our questions are not answered like we were promised they would be.

Modifié par brummyuk19, 24 juin 2012 - 08:03 .

[brummyuk19]

vixvicco wrote...

brummyuk19 wrote...

Yes, sound logic. They harvest organic beings into reaper form to preserve them and to stop them from creating a synthetic life that will surpass organics and wipe out ALL organic life, down to the microbes. We may not agree with it, but it is logical.

It sounds more like the Reapers fear being surpassed by either organics, or the synthetics that organics "will" create. That's more logical to me. This would mean their immediate destruction, something the Starchild even admitted when he said "this proves my plan won't work anymore" (referring to Shepard being the first organic to pretty much defeat/get close to defeating the Reapers). When Shepard reached the StarChild, he had proven that organics had advanced well enough to destroy the Reapers.

Maybe, but again... more speculation. But I would accept that if it were so.

[Erixxxx]

Barict78 wrote...

Erixxxx wrote...

Likewise, try on the shoes of the Catalyst. The Reapers are huge nigh-immortal constructs who are created from members of a species that has been melted together into a hive-mind or super-being of sorts. Legion mentions this in ME2. True transcendence. From a machine's perspective that would be absolute perfection. Each species' culture and history will be preserved for all eternity without the risk of being destroyed by synthetics and lost to time.

Personally id rather take that "Risk" and determine my own destiny as apose to some Glowing Brat telling me what i have to do. If they revolt and we all die so be it at least we fought the good fight . The way StarBrat wants it done is just... well inhuman. Ill keep my Humanity thank u very much

Sure. That's what makes us human. I'd probably go that way too if I didn't have more information. However synthetics are not human. We do not truly comprehend their thought processes. We don't know exactly is their reasons for the decisions they make. They have an entirely different perspective on the universe. We do not know what it means to be transcendent, to be all-seeing or all-knowing. There are countless possibilities spanning timeframes that we can't even imagine. In order to understand why they do it, we need to see things with their logic applied, not ours.

[Nightwriter]

brummyuk19 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Erixxxx wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

I think that's a bit shaky. For instance, I could see a scenario where a race of organics, in the last stages of a synthetic war where they were quickly becoming extinct, created the Catalyst with a simple instruction (come up with a solution for the cycle) but died before they could observe the outcome or give it further instruction.

Meaning it's possible the Catalyst came up with a solution that its creator(s) wouldn't have approved of at all. Which, imo, is quite plausible, given what it actually came up with.

Quite possible too. We don't know how much information the Catalyst had to work with when it came up with the solution.

Or for that matter that the creators were organics in the first place.

It always comes back to SPECULATIONS, doesn't it.

And that is what is wrong with the ending... Not the logic, the lack of infomation. Our questions are not answered like we were promised they would be.

You and I may call that a flaw, but others call it a virtue. Supposedly, a lack of writer-given information on a subject is an invitation for the player to "decide" what actually happened.

[Mazebook]

 I completly agree with the OP... I find quite baffeling that alot of people still haven´t figuard out that the reapers don´t kill organics...they have them accend.
The concept of the ending is classic sci-fi. For example The Gray Goo theory  is basicly the same thing on a smaller scale (only earth). 

and btw. there is no magic in sci-fi (also no Space Magic) only advanced Technologie...
Radio = space magic for ancient greeks.

Modifié par maaaze, 24 juin 2012 - 08:21 .