364 réponses à ce sujet

[StElmo]

essarr71 wrote...

I disagree. No logic at all.

[The Revolut]

maaaze wrote...

 I completly agree with the OP... I find quite baffeling that alot of people still haven´t figuard out that the reapers don´t kill organics...they have them accend.
The concept of the ending is classic sci-fi. For example The Gray Goo theory  is basicly the same thing on a smaller scale (only earth). 

and btw. there is no magic in sci-fi (also no Space Magic) only advanced Technologie...
Radio = space magic for ancient greeks.

So you're completely alright with the antagonists becoming the true protagonists in the end despite the fact that they have killed--not "helped ascend"--killed, murdered, and maimed trillions, if not quadrillions?

In addition, they require life to be melted down into grey goo to make these Reapers, somehow storing their consciousness, collectively, despite the fact that they are rendered into an unrecognizeable mess?

Please. The very notion they help life "ascend" is laughable. 

[Apple Lantern]

I suppose it is sound logic, but it's a very... idiotic reason. Since we've been led to believe that their reasons for existing and wiping out (We're dead, whether our data is maintained or not) advanced organisms are beyond our comprehension, I'd never expected to hear a reason for this. That would have made them near god-like entities that the universe needs to face. With that... lame reasoning [Yes, I called it lame. To keep hearing that they are beyond our comprehension, the reason they have this cycle is to keep us from making synthetics that will wipe out all organics? What's not hard to understand about that?], the Reapers went from being one of the greatest threats that truly held presence to being one of the greatest threats that we actually could laugh at.

[Mazebook]

The Revolut wrote...

maaaze wrote...

 I completly agree with the OP... I find quite baffeling that alot of people still haven´t figuard out that the reapers don´t kill organics...they have them accend.
The concept of the ending is classic sci-fi. For example The Gray Goo theory  is basicly the same thing on a smaller scale (only earth). 

and btw. there is no magic in sci-fi (also no Space Magic) only advanced Technologie...
Radio = space magic for ancient greeks.

So you're completely alright with the antagonists becoming the true protagonists in the end despite the fact that they have killed--not "helped ascend"--killed, murdered, and maimed trillions, if not quadrillions?

In addition, they require life to be melted down into grey goo to make these Reapers, somehow storing their consciousness, collectively, despite the fact that they are rendered into an unrecognizeable mess?

Please. The very notion they help life "ascend" is laughable. 

So you ask why are the reapers not like humans, with human ethics and understanding of life???

From the Reapers perspective it is a greater...definitly a more powerful way of being.

To prove them wrong is the whole point of ME 3. Thats why the Catalyst lets you choose how to proceed.

[comrade gando]

what color are OP's eyes. my guess is BLUE.

for real though I just watched the indoc documentary part 2 and I'm 99% sure IT is real. there's just too much things wrong with the final part of the game is just HAS to be indoctrination there's no other way around it.

[The Revolut]

maaaze wrote...

So you ask why are the reapers not like humans, with human ethics and understanding of life???

From the Reapers perspective it is a greater...definitly a more powerful way of being.

To prove them wrong is the whole point of ME 3. Thats why the Catalyst lets you choose how to proceed.

No, logic is transcendent of ethics and helps us discern a greater universal understanding of life.

The Reapers have no logic corresponding to "transcendence" or "ascendence." Power =/= logic. It'd be like me saying, "Your logic is bad," and then punching you in the face repeatedly until you relented and joined my cause.

The abomination of an ending is quite another argument to be had.

[brummyuk19]

comrade gando wrote...

what color are OP's eyes. my guess is BLUE.

for real though I just watched the indoc documentary part 2 and I'm 99% sure IT is real. there's just too much things wrong with the final part of the game is just HAS to be indoctrination there's no other way around it.

You hope. Who is to say it's not. Maybe the EC is just that, and we can all marvel at how amazing biowares writing skills are for it, or... maybe we have to learn to accept the logic put before us and realise that it does make sense, we just have to be more open minded about it. We may think it is a stupid reason, well... that's why we are given 3 choices at the end, we can prevent the cycle from happening again like it has so many times with people dieing or we can murge synthetic and organic life or just ultimately destroy them.

The problem was, we never got to see what our choices did for the galaxy or how it effected the civilizations, nor given enough infomation. THAT is the problem with the ending IMO.

[Cadeym]

brummyuk19 wrote...

The actual story behind Mass Effect is pretty good, and the writing is ok in it's self. The star childs logic is sound, it was just the WAY it was presented to the player that was bad. We were not told much, told to accept something as if it were truth and not given any way to deny or rebel against it, we just had to accept it. How that was played out was poor, and I hope the EC will rectify that. 

But as a whole, I can see myself replaying Mass Effect 1, 2 and 3 again if the EC fills in the plot holes and gives us the closure we want. Also it would be nice to see more of our war assets in battle. Other than that, I have no problem with the writing.

The logic is sound once you have all the details, it's just the fact I had to come on the internet and read for hours to understand it that annoyed me, because of how poorly it was put across.

Thoughts?

How can the logic be sound if there isn't enough evidence to support it?. Without metagaming what proof could the Catalyst possibly provide you with that would make you believe that any of the three options will even work.

Shepard only has the Catalyst's word that it will even work. Now that might be good enough for your Shepard, but without external information from either a neutral or friendly source everything the Catalyst say sounds completely insane.

[ioannisdenton]

Starbrat NEEDS pedobear.

[Voutsis1982]

No logic. If synthetic life is so insanely dangerous that you have to periodically wipe out advanced organic life in order to prevent the possibility of a killer synthetic rising, then you cannot use a synthetic lifeform as part of your solution. The Reapers are space-faring self-reproducing synthetic life forms, creating more of themselves by yolking the diversity and strengths of other species. They could create anything.

By the Catalyst's own argument, the Reapers are too dangerous to even risk their creation (and yes they are synthetic, since they die in the red wave when you choose "destroy all synthetics").

But Starchild controls the Reapers! So? A lot of people would claim to control the synthetics they would create, but he'll kill them all to prevent a future catastrophe. The same logic has to apply or else it is no logic at all.

And then the three choices you are given do nothing to prevent the future development of a killer AI by organic races. The Starchild could have stood up and sung Ba Ba Black Sheep as the Reapers' motivation and it would have been just as relevant to your final decision. A story twist has to explain why a character is forced into a certain situation, and it doesn't.

And then you've got the whole "If the Citadel houses Starchild, why didn't he activate the main relay before ME1?" thing. The only running explanation for that is really bad design.

The twist is inconsistent with previous Mass Effect, inconsistent in its own logic, and ultimately doesn't explain why the player is forced into these three choices. That makes it a pretty poor twist, which is one of the reasons why Starchild is the worst-received character in the entire Mass Effect story - more hated that TIM, Udina, Sovereign, Saren, Harbinger (who?), Konrad Verner...

[MegaSovereign]

edit: wrong thread lmao.

Modifié par MegaSovereign, 24 juin 2012 - 08:45 .

[2papercuts]

brummyuk19 wrote...

Yes, sound logic. They harvest organic beings into reaper form to preserve them and to stop them from creating a synthetic life that will surpass organics and wipe out ALL organic life, down to the microbes. We may not agree with it, but it is logical.

yes, basing mass genocide on potential hypothetical worse case senarios is completely logical

good call




plus, im not sure if this has been addressed, but isn't biological singularity possible also? isn't the basis for singularity the expontenial growth of inteligence based on self improvement, so biologically organics could? in ME miranda is already genetically altered, couldn't humanity keep improving its own inteligence to reach a singularity?

[Hudathan]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

The Terminator is on her way through.

Terminator is actually a good example for this. Kill Miles Dyson so that he does not create the AI that leads to Skynet, essentially killing in order to prevent killing. Now do this with every scientist that steps up and try to finish his work. That's what the Catalyst is trying to do and like it or not it's a perfectly logical way to prevent something it believes will inevitably happen.

[Taboo]

Hudathan wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

The Terminator is on her way through.

Terminator is actually a good example for this. Kill Miles Dyson so that he does not create the AI that leads to Skynet, essentially killing in order to prevent killing. Now do this with every scientist that steps up and try to finish his work. That's what the Catalyst is trying to do and like it or not it's a perfectly logical way to prevent something it believes will inevitably happen.

Which is a fallacy known as appeal to probability. Look it up. It isn't logical.

[The Revolut]

Hudathan wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

The Terminator is on her way through.

Terminator is actually a good example for this. Kill Miles Dyson so that he does not create the AI that leads to Skynet, essentially killing in order to prevent killing. Now do this with every scientist that steps up and try to finish his work. That's what the Catalyst is trying to do and like it or not it's a perfectly logical way to prevent something it believes will inevitably happen.

Despite the fact that we proved his belief inherently wrong within the narrative.

[Cadeym]

2papercuts wrote...

brummyuk19 wrote...

Yes, sound logic. They harvest organic beings into reaper form to preserve them and to stop them from creating a synthetic life that will surpass organics and wipe out ALL organic life, down to the microbes. We may not agree with it, but it is logical.

yes, basing mass genocide on potential hypothetical worse case senarios is completely logical

good call




plus, im not sure if this has been addressed, but isn't biological singularity possible also? isn't the basis for singularity the expontenial growth of inteligence based on self improvement, so biologically organics could? in ME miranda is already genetically altered, couldn't humanity keep improving its own inteligence to reach a singularity?

A brain that could modify it's own way of interpreting information? I don't see how that could be plausible.

[IliyaMoroumetz]

The Reapers are parasites. The Galaxy is their Charnel House for which they feast upon the galaxy's inhabitants to only create more of themselves. There's no preservation. There's only destruction.

Modifié par IliyaMoroumetz, 24 juin 2012 - 08:56 .

[2papercuts]

Mouseraider wrote...

2papercuts wrote...

brummyuk19 wrote...

Yes, sound logic. They harvest organic beings into reaper form to preserve them and to stop them from creating a synthetic life that will surpass organics and wipe out ALL organic life, down to the microbes. We may not agree with it, but it is logical.

yes, basing mass genocide on potential hypothetical worse case senarios is completely logical

good call




plus, im not sure if this has been addressed, but isn't biological singularity possible also? isn't the basis for singularity the expontenial growth of inteligence based on self improvement, so biologically organics could? in ME miranda is already genetically altered, couldn't humanity keep improving its own inteligence to reach a singularity?

A brain that could modify it's own way of interpreting information? I don't see how that could be plausible.

isn't that sort of the basis of what a singularity is?

The basis for technological singulartiy is self improvement, so biologically wouldn't that be possible also. Its not so much modifying  the interpertaion of data as it is not being able to understand the possiblity's or outcomes from the singularity's point onward.

Modifié par 2papercuts, 24 juin 2012 - 08:58 .

[Landon7001]

upon talkng to starbrat.....organics vs synthetics really took me by suprise, i never thought of that as the central theme, it felt like they just decided on that b/c they couldnt think of anything better.....and the whole killing organics b/c they might create all encompassing synthetics....really is there not a better way? i mean, please......so sloppy, not natural, full of holes

[Voutsis1982]

2papercuts wrote...
plus, im not sure if this has been addressed, but isn't biological singularity possible also? isn't the basis for singularity the expontenial growth of inteligence based on self improvement, so biologically organics could? in ME miranda is already genetically altered, couldn't humanity keep improving its own inteligence to reach a singularity?

You can get an equivalency, with each generation creating more advanced offspring until you get one race with enormous advantages over all others, and then it decides to wipe out of the competition, destroying all future diversity in the galaxy.

Which is a far better motivation for the Reapers' activities. At least you don't get the contradiction of using a synthetic life form to prevent the future creation of synethic lifeforms, which are too dangerous to allow to be created.

[Barict78]

Erixxxx wrote...

Barict78 wrote...

Erixxxx wrote...

Likewise, try on the shoes of the Catalyst. The Reapers are huge nigh-immortal constructs who are created from members of a species that has been melted together into a hive-mind or super-being of sorts. Legion mentions this in ME2. True transcendence. From a machine's perspective that would be absolute perfection. Each species' culture and history will be preserved for all eternity without the risk of being destroyed by synthetics and lost to time.

Personally id rather take that "Risk" and determine my own destiny as apose to some Glowing Brat telling me what i have to do. If they revolt and we all die so be it at least we fought the good fight . The way StarBrat wants it done is just... well inhuman. Ill keep my Humanity thank u very much

Sure. That's what makes us human. I'd probably go that way too if I didn't have more information. However synthetics are not human. We do not truly comprehend their thought processes. We don't know exactly is their reasons for the decisions they make. They have an entirely different perspective on the universe. We do not know what it means to be transcendent, to be all-seeing or all-knowing. There are countless possibilities spanning timeframes that we can't even imagine. In order to understand why they do it, we need to see things with their logic applied, not ours.

So Basically cause we dont understand it and its different we must kill it??  WEll by that "Logic" we should kill all things that are different from us or whos thoughts we dont know or dont fully understand... what happened to letting events just play out and trying out best to show Compassion to th AIs and maybe just maybe they wont go frakkin genocidal on us and "wipe us out"

[Erixxxx]

Barict78 wrote...

So Basically cause we dont understand it and its different we must kill it??  WEll by that "Logic" we should kill all things that are different from us or whos thoughts we dont know or dont fully understand... what happened to letting events just play out and trying out best to show Compassion to th AIs and maybe just maybe they wont go frakkin genocidal on us and "wipe us out"

Did I state anywhere that we should wipe out everything we don't understand?

[Mazebook]

The Revolut wrote...

maaaze wrote...

So you ask why are the reapers not like humans, with human ethics and understanding of life???

From the Reapers perspective it is a greater...definitly a more powerful way of being.

To prove them wrong is the whole point of ME 3. Thats why the Catalyst lets you choose how to proceed.

No, logic is transcendent of ethics and helps us discern a greater universal understanding of life.

The Reapers have no logic corresponding to "transcendence" or "ascendence." Power =/= logic. It'd be like me saying, "Your logic is bad," and then punching you in the face repeatedly until you relented and joined my cause.

The abomination of an ending is quite another argument to be had.

No, logic is is the study of valid reasoning. The reasoning of the Catalyst is sound... beeing more powerfull ensures higher chances of survival...

The question is : Hive mind against individuality...which is better for survival..
you can make a valid arguement for both.

[Barict78]

Erixxxx wrote...

Barict78 wrote...

So Basically cause we dont understand it and its different we must kill it??  WEll by that "Logic" we should kill all things that are different from us or whos thoughts we dont know or dont fully understand... what happened to letting events just play out and trying out best to show Compassion to th AIs and maybe just maybe they wont go frakkin genocidal on us and "wipe us out"

Did I state anywhere that we should wipe out everything we don't understand?

OMFG yes yes u did ... if u AGREE with the star brat then you are saying that so YES

[Barict78]

maaaze wrote...

The Revolut wrote...

maaaze wrote...

So you ask why are the reapers not like humans, with human ethics and understanding of life???

From the Reapers perspective it is a greater...definitly a more powerful way of being.

To prove them wrong is the whole point of ME 3. Thats why the Catalyst lets you choose how to proceed.

No, logic is transcendent of ethics and helps us discern a greater universal understanding of life.

The Reapers have no logic corresponding to "transcendence" or "ascendence." Power =/= logic. It'd be like me saying, "Your logic is bad," and then punching you in the face repeatedly until you relented and joined my cause.

The abomination of an ending is quite another argument to be had.

No, logic is is the study of valid reasoning. The reasoning of the Catalyst is sound... beeing more powerfull ensures higher chances of survival...

The question is : Hive mind against individuality...which is better for survival..
you can make a valid arguement for both.

One cannot base a "logical" argument on what "Might" happen so no his argument is not logical sorry