364 réponses à ce sujet

[Grimwick]

maaaze wrote...

dorktainian wrote...

anyone who defends the old'' we're saving organics by killing organics to save them from synthetics'' garbage needs a serious lie down.

No,
this is not the arguement of the catalyst.

Please get you facts straight... the magic word is ascending...

Then we get to the point where we realise: THEY AREN'T ASCENDING ANYONE!

From what we see ascension = liquification = death.

Therefore it's genocide in every respect, not ascension.

Hence the original statement is true in that the SC is killing organics to stop organics being killed by synthetics.

[The Revolut]

brummyuk19 wrote...

The Revolut wrote...

brummyuk19 wrote...

I am open to reason, but just as much as you have an opinion, so do I.

The difference between you and I being I've reinforced everything I've stated on this thread with something that the Catalyst has actually said, as well as rules of logic and debate.

You? You've based a logical argument off of your opinion.

Well if you have based everything you have said from the catalyst, then the catalysts logic would make sense to you. I am not going into detail about what the catalyst says, I have been there and there is NOT enough infomation to form a real concusion. You either accept/understand the logic or you don't.

What? So, because I point to how his logic makes no sense, it makes sense?

/facepalm

[Barict78]

maaaze wrote...

dorktainian wrote...

anyone who defends the old'' we're saving organics by killing organics to save them from synthetics'' garbage needs a serious lie down.

No,
this is not the arguement of the catalyst.

Please get you facts straight... the magic word is ascending...

My idea of "ascention" is not being Reaped and turned into grey goo to fuel a giant space lobster.... if thats ur idea of a Higher plane well more power too you i guess

[brummyuk19]

Barict78 wrote...

brummyuk19 wrote...

So what happens when the geth become superior to the quarians? If the pattern can form the other way, surely it can work both ways.

Thats kinda the point... We do not know what will happen and neither does the StarBrat. there are too many Variables and possiblities to make a sweeping statement like " the Created will always rebel against the Creator" no just no unless ur actually GOD u cannot hope to know what any living organism will do at any given time.

I am not saying the star child is right, I am saying his logic is sound from the infomation he has. You misunderstand me. I agree that there is a far better way to prevent the cycle than killing trillions, but your view point would change had you of seen synthetics slaughtering organics, had you of witnessed it yourself.

Modifié par brummyuk19, 24 juin 2012 - 09:58 .

[TemplePhoenix]

Know what would have been an alternative to 'synthetics vs organics' as the reasoning? A much simpler 'advanced life vs advanced life' idea. The Catalyst could have decided that warfare is inherent to all species, and that the logical eventual conclusion to advancing species and advancing weaponry would be one final, cataclysmic war that would wipe out all life in the galaxy. The Catalyst could then have decided to 'prune' life back every time it reaches a certain level of advancement, reasoning that it is better to have SOME life than any life.

Shepard could still argue against it, but from the perspective of denying the inevitability of war and arguing for life to be given a chance.

I dunno, you guys might think this is just as nonsensical as what we got; just something I was noodling about.

[The Revolut]

brummyuk19 wrote...

I am not saying the star child is right, I am saying his logic is sound from the infomation he has. You misunderstand me. I agree that there is a far better way to prevent the cycle than killing trillions, but your view point would change had you of seen synthetics slaughtering organics, had you of witnessed it yourself.

Dear God.

Ignorance does not excuse unsound logic, or the absence of such.

[brummyuk19]

The Revolut wrote...

brummyuk19 wrote...

The Revolut wrote...

brummyuk19 wrote...

I am open to reason, but just as much as you have an opinion, so do I.

The difference between you and I being I've reinforced everything I've stated on this thread with something that the Catalyst has actually said, as well as rules of logic and debate.

You? You've based a logical argument off of your opinion.

Well if you have based everything you have said from the catalyst, then the catalysts logic would make sense to you. I am not going into detail about what the catalyst says, I have been there and there is NOT enough infomation to form a real concusion. You either accept/understand the logic or you don't.

What? So, because I point to how his logic makes no sense, it makes sense?

/facepalm

Logic is percieved by what we know, we do not know all the variables.

[dorktainian]

maaaze wrote...

dorktainian wrote...

anyone who defends the old'' we're saving organics by killing organics to save them from synthetics'' garbage needs a serious lie down.

No,
this is not the arguement of the catalyst.

Please get you facts straight... the magic word is ascending...

a play on words.  your point is?

oh and the Catalyst does not offer an arguement - he only offers absolutes.  When shep questions him he slaps him down with a stern ''NO!''

The Catalyst is ''controlling'' sheps choices.  wheres the choice to tell him to sod off?

[Barict78]

brummyuk19 wrote...

Barict78 wrote...

brummyuk19 wrote...

So what happens when the geth become superior to the quarians? If the pattern can form the other way, surely it can work both ways.

Thats kinda the point... We do not know what will happen and neither does the StarBrat. there are too many Variables and possiblities to make a sweeping statement like " the Created will always rebel against the Creator" no just no unless ur actually GOD u cannot hope to know what any living organism will do at any given time.

I am not saying the star child is right, I am saying his logic is sound from the infomation he has. You misunderstand me. I agree that there is a far better way to prevent the cycle than killing trillions, but your view point would change had you of seen synthetics slaughtering organics, had you of witnessed it yourself.

How can he have witnessed it if everytime the Reapers Destroy the organics and synthetics that are advanced enuf to rebel?

[Barict78]

TemplePhoenix wrote...

Know what would have been an alternative to 'synthetics vs organics' as the reasoning? A much simpler 'advanced life vs advanced life' idea. The Catalyst could have decided that warfare is inherent to all species, and that the logical eventual conclusion to advancing species and advancing weaponry would be one final, cataclysmic war that would wipe out all life in the galaxy. The Catalyst could then have decided to 'prune' life back every time it reaches a certain level of advancement, reasoning that it is better to have SOME life than any life.

Shepard could still argue against it, but from the perspective of denying the inevitability of war and arguing for life to be given a chance.

I dunno, you guys might think this is just as nonsensical as what we got; just something I was noodling about.

No it actually makes way more sense than what we got

[The Revolut]

brummyuk19 wrote...

Logic is percieved by what we know, we do not know all the variables.

And ignorance is perceived from others based on what is already proven vs. known.

[Erixxxx]

Grimwick wrote...

Then we get to the point where we realise: THEY AREN'T ASCENDING ANYONE!

From what we see ascension = liquification = death.

Therefore it's genocide in every respect, not ascension.

Hence the original statement is true in that the SC is killing organics to stop organics being killed by synthetics.

Their minds are still there. The Geth felt them when they connected with Nazara/Sovereign.

[Grimwick]

brummyuk19 wrote...

The Revolut wrote...

brummyuk19 wrote...

The Revolut wrote...

brummyuk19 wrote...

I am open to reason, but just as much as you have an opinion, so do I.

The difference between you and I being I've reinforced everything I've stated on this thread with something that the Catalyst has actually said, as well as rules of logic and debate.

You? You've based a logical argument off of your opinion.

Well if you have based everything you have said from the catalyst, then the catalysts logic would make sense to you. I am not going into detail about what the catalyst says, I have been there and there is NOT enough infomation to form a real concusion. You either accept/understand the logic or you don't.

What? So, because I point to how his logic makes no sense, it makes sense?

/facepalm

Logic is percieved by what we know, we do not know all the variables.

??? Y U NO Make Sense?

[brummyuk19]

Barict78 wrote...

brummyuk19 wrote...

Barict78 wrote...

brummyuk19 wrote...

So what happens when the geth become superior to the quarians? If the pattern can form the other way, surely it can work both ways.

Thats kinda the point... We do not know what will happen and neither does the StarBrat. there are too many Variables and possiblities to make a sweeping statement like " the Created will always rebel against the Creator" no just no unless ur actually GOD u cannot hope to know what any living organism will do at any given time.

I am not saying the star child is right, I am saying his logic is sound from the infomation he has. You misunderstand me. I agree that there is a far better way to prevent the cycle than killing trillions, but your view point would change had you of seen synthetics slaughtering organics, had you of witnessed it yourself.

How can he have witnessed it if everytime the Reapers Destroy the organics and synthetics that are advanced enuf to rebel?

The cycle must have repeated it's self for the catalyst to come up with the conclusion it will always repeat it's self. The catalyst is a program, programs caculate numbers, it obviously caculated that at some point the cycle would repeat it's self again and again.

[Cadeym]

brummyuk19 wrote...

Barict78 wrote...

maaaze wrote...

The Revolut wrote...

maaaze wrote...

So you ask why are the reapers not like humans, with human ethics and understanding of life???

From the Reapers perspective it is a greater...definitly a more powerful way of being.

To prove them wrong is the whole point of ME 3. Thats why the Catalyst lets you choose how to proceed.

No, logic is transcendent of ethics and helps us discern a greater universal understanding of life.

The Reapers have no logic corresponding to "transcendence" or "ascendence." Power =/= logic. It'd be like me saying, "Your logic is bad," and then punching you in the face repeatedly until you relented and joined my cause.

The abomination of an ending is quite another argument to be had.

No, logic is is the study of valid reasoning. The reasoning of the Catalyst is sound... beeing more powerfull ensures higher chances of survival...

The question is : Hive mind against individuality...which is better for survival..
you can make a valid arguement for both.

One cannot base a "logical" argument on what "Might" happen so no his argument is not logical sorry

It is not based on what might happen though. You have to think, the reapers have done this cycle many times and have witnessed machines rise and machines rebel time and time again, just because it might not happen with the geth it does not mean that someone will not create synthetic life that evolves faster than organics can, meaning they will rebel and wipe us out. That is why they do what they do, to stop a singularity they have witnessed again and again. We don't know when or how but we know that star child must be basing his logic off of some evidence. He would not kill/preserve everything for nothing.

I know of atleast 5 options that are better and more logically sound than simply killing organics because of what might happen.

1) Act as a police force and tell everyone that AI's will 98% of the time attempt to murder everyone in sight.
2) Destroy dangerus technology before it becomes a problem. Even without an explanation people will eventually start to understand.
3) Provide constant surveillance of AI's that have been created, and should it eventually prove to be hostile then eliminate it.
4) Attempt to explain that AI's are dangerus and don't step in untill the problem has escalated beyond the control of the organics.
5) Allow the organics to solve the problem themselves. The Protheans were winning their war vs the synthetics in their cycle. How many cycles do you think would have won aswell if the reapers hadn't started killing the organics.


BioWare should never have told us anything beyond that they harvest us to create more of themselves.

Modifié par Mouseraider, 24 juin 2012 - 10:04 .

[brummyuk19]

The Revolut wrote...

brummyuk19 wrote...

Logic is percieved by what we know, we do not know all the variables.

And ignorance is perceived from others based on what is already proven vs. known.

That is the point though isn't is. We don't really know anything, the ending gives us little infomation to work with.

[Grimwick]

Erixxxx wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

Then we get to the point where we realise: THEY AREN'T ASCENDING ANYONE!

From what we see ascension = liquification = death.

Therefore it's genocide in every respect, not ascension.

Hence the original statement is true in that the SC is killing organics to stop organics being killed by synthetics.

Their minds are still there. The Geth felt them when they connected with Nazara/Sovereign.

Unsubstantiated to a very large degree. We see people getting killed. Killed. Dead. Kablamo. People turned into husks, buildings obliterated, people liquified.

That is not preservation by any means. 

[The Revolut]

brummyuk19 wrote...

The Revolut wrote...

brummyuk19 wrote...

Logic is percieved by what we know, we do not know all the variables.

And ignorance is perceived from others based on what is already proven vs. known.

That is the point though isn't is. We don't really know anything, the ending gives us little infomation to work with.

I'm literally shaking my head, here.

That does not excuse anything you've argued in this thread.

[Barict78]

brummyuk19 wrote...

Barict78 wrote...

brummyuk19 wrote...

Barict78 wrote...

brummyuk19 wrote...

So what happens when the geth become superior to the quarians? If the pattern can form the other way, surely it can work both ways.

Thats kinda the point... We do not know what will happen and neither does the StarBrat. there are too many Variables and possiblities to make a sweeping statement like " the Created will always rebel against the Creator" no just no unless ur actually GOD u cannot hope to know what any living organism will do at any given time.

I am not saying the star child is right, I am saying his logic is sound from the infomation he has. You misunderstand me. I agree that there is a far better way to prevent the cycle than killing trillions, but your view point would change had you of seen synthetics slaughtering organics, had you of witnessed it yourself.

How can he have witnessed it if everytime the Reapers Destroy the organics and synthetics that are advanced enuf to rebel?

The cycle must have repeated it's self for the catalyst to come up with the conclusion it will always repeat it's self. The catalyst is a program, programs caculate numbers, it obviously caculated that at some point the cycle would repeat it's self again and again.

well thats all good and well but its just a calculation or in other words an educated guess and thats no basis for a logical argument, which his argument isnt. he gives no proff no explanation just says it and shepard has to accept it cuz thers no option to argue . which is what this game is based on: SHepard Aargues everything and does not accpet something as absolute just cuz someone says it is.

[Erixxxx]

Barict78 wrote...

brummyuk19 wrote...

So what happens when the geth become superior to the quarians? If the pattern can form the other way, surely it can work both ways.

Thats kinda the point... We do not know what will happen and neither does the StarBrat. there are too many Variables and possiblities to make a sweeping statement like " the Created will always rebel against the Creator" no just no unless ur actually GOD u cannot hope to know what any living organism will do at any given time.

We do not know what the Catalyst has seen before the creation of the Reapers. His creators may just as well have been through their version of the Geth/Quarian war. With war being declared and then peace settled upon. In time the two factions may have gone to war again.

We most definitely don't know what will happen, but the Catalyst might. We know nothing of it's origins. He may have seen a thousand synthetic creations, with a thousand synthetic uprisings as a result of that. To him, the odds of an inevitable synthetic uprising would be 1:1.

There's no evidence that he does know, but there's just as little evidence that he doesn't know.

[brummyuk19]

I am only argueing that the star childs knowledge of what might happen leads him to believe that the logical thing to do is step in and STOP organics from making synthetics that will wipe out all life. That is logical to assume. May not be the right thing to do, but there you have it.

Modifié par brummyuk19, 24 juin 2012 - 10:08 .

[The Revolut]

brummyuk19 wrote...

Barict78 wrote...

brummyuk19 wrote...

Barict78 wrote...

brummyuk19 wrote...

So what happens when the geth become superior to the quarians? If the pattern can form the other way, surely it can work both ways.

Thats kinda the point... We do not know what will happen and neither does the StarBrat. there are too many Variables and possiblities to make a sweeping statement like " the Created will always rebel against the Creator" no just no unless ur actually GOD u cannot hope to know what any living organism will do at any given time.

I am not saying the star child is right, I am saying his logic is sound from the infomation he has. You misunderstand me. I agree that there is a far better way to prevent the cycle than killing trillions, but your view point would change had you of seen synthetics slaughtering organics, had you of witnessed it yourself.

How can he have witnessed it if everytime the Reapers Destroy the organics and synthetics that are advanced enuf to rebel?

The cycle must have repeated it's self for the catalyst to come up with the conclusion it will always repeat it's self. The catalyst is a program, programs caculate numbers, it obviously caculated that at some point the cycle would repeat it's self again and again.

The cycle was of Reaper creation, ergo self-fulfilling prophecy.

[The Revolut]

brummyuk19 wrote...

I am only argueing that the star childs knowledge of what might happen leads him to believe that the logical thing to do is step in and STOP organics from making synthetics that will wipe out all life. That is logical to assume. May not be the right thing to do, but there you have it.

Are you serious?

You can't be.

[Barict78]

Erixxxx wrote...

Barict78 wrote...

brummyuk19 wrote...

So what happens when the geth become superior to the quarians? If the pattern can form the other way, surely it can work both ways.

Thats kinda the point... We do not know what will happen and neither does the StarBrat. there are too many Variables and possiblities to make a sweeping statement like " the Created will always rebel against the Creator" no just no unless ur actually GOD u cannot hope to know what any living organism will do at any given time.

We do not know what the Catalyst has seen before the creation of the Reapers. His creators may just as well have been through their version of the Geth/Quarian war. With war being declared and then peace settled upon. In time the two factions may have gone to war again.

We most definitely don't know what will happen, but the Catalyst might. We know nothing of it's origins. He may have seen a thousand synthetic creations, with a thousand synthetic uprisings as a result of that. To him, the odds of an inevitable synthetic uprising would be 1:1.

There's no evidence that he does know, but there's just as little evidence that he doesn't know.

Id say the fact that u United the Geth and quarians is a pretty good example of the fact that the starbaby is full of shat. or maybe the fact that u opened EDI up to real human emotions and she chooses to fight and die by ur side. if what he says is tru then EDI wulda just ripped into the Normandy Crew as soon as she got her body and then THAT would be our ending... which in retrospect would be better than the crapthat spews from starbrats mouth

[iAFKinMassEffect3]

6 pages and you're no where closer explaining the sound logic you see.

I admit the reason the Reaper do what they do is all right but it has no backing nothing really makes sense regarding the Crucible and Starchild.
They were merely attached onto a story.



The Bioware team completely failed on this game, I was waiting for this game for the last 2 years and it has been nothing but a disappointment.
They just were not capable of producing another Mass effect game that fits the theme, maybe they dried up of ideas, I don't know.
It's best if Mass effect 3 is their last game they make because they can't resurrect a train wreck which is only proven by their attitude to feedback.
The EC should of been on the actual damn disc, it's so basic.
I don't know who came up with the bright idea to answer no questions about the Reapers and have a ending with no closure to a trilogy.
It's a joke.

But yeah their artistic vision sucks and will continue to suck.

Modifié par iAFKinMassEffect3, 24 juin 2012 - 10:13 .