390 réponses à ce sujet

[Razerath]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

Razerath wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

There is a big difference between weak-mindedness and immunity... Want to explain how Shepard is immune OP?

Oh that's right, you can't. In fact, you would have a harder time explaining that than the IT.

/thread!

Who said he was immune at all? It could have just been luck. It could be superior genetics, Biotics, Implants etc...

All I am saying is that he didn't end up indoctrinated, not even to break the indoctrination.

In the eyes of an indoctrinist.
The premise is that s/he was never indoctrinated at all, the 3 choices at the end was the test of her/his resolve. At no point through this is Shepard indoctrinated. If your Shepard isn't weak-minded, pick destroy. End of discussion.

Generally,
lol @ luck, now who can't differentiate between reality and fantasy? It's crappy writing to justify something with simple "luck"... Plus, if Shepard was that lucky s/he wouldn't have died at the start of ME2.
Biotics?... What if you don't play adept? Superior genetics and implants fall under a sense of immunity.

Basically, unless the writers themselves explain this (which they didn't), every interpretation and speculative thought of the ending is just as valid as the next, and you appear as a very silly person saying that "IT is false".. Unless Bioware denies it themselves, of course (which they haven't).

Luck, chance and fate are a part of life. Real and fictional.

[Jadebaby]

Razerath wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

Razerath wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

There is a big difference between weak-mindedness and immunity... Want to explain how Shepard is immune OP?

Oh that's right, you can't. In fact, you would have a harder time explaining that than the IT.

/thread!

Who said he was immune at all? It could have just been luck. It could be superior genetics, Biotics, Implants etc...

All I am saying is that he didn't end up indoctrinated, not even to break the indoctrination.

In the eyes of an indoctrinist.
The premise is that s/he was never indoctrinated at all, the 3 choices at the end was the test of her/his resolve. At no point through this is Shepard indoctrinated. If your Shepard isn't weak-minded, pick destroy. End of discussion.

Generally,
lol @ luck, now who can't differentiate between reality and fantasy? It's crappy writing to justify something with simple "luck"... Plus, if Shepard was that lucky s/he wouldn't have died at the start of ME2.
Biotics?... What if you don't play adept? Superior genetics and implants fall under a sense of immunity.

Basically, unless the writers themselves explain this (which they didn't), every interpretation and speculative thought of the ending is just as valid as the next, and you appear as a very silly person saying that "IT is false".. Unless Bioware denies it themselves, of course (which they haven't).

Luck, chance and fate are a part of life. Real and fictional.

That's it? I think i'm done here. Good luck TAO.

[Razerath]

KDD-0063 wrote...

Razerath wrote...

KDD-0063 wrote...

Razerath wrote...

KDD-0063 wrote...

Razerath wrote...

The Starchild finally gave a proven organic a choice. Proven meaning, "omg he might actually fix this". Choice meaning finally he is letting organics have their own fate again even if that means they will shoot themselves with the loaded gun given to them.

So you are saying that the entire mass effect series is but an exam from the god child and you are happily taking it. The subject is building the crucible. And this exam is awesome.

Wow.

Kind of, yeah. Apparently not one organic in the past has been able to make it so far without being indoctrinated. This could be an "exam" by the Starchild and the organic that passes is allowed the choice to change things.

Wow?

By this time if you still haven't figured out why people hate this ending, you need to take a fresh breath outside.
The entire mass effect series is about a WAR. The last 10 minutes changed it into an EXAM, which, by the way, doesn't make sense in the mass effect universe.

In this game war is a symptom of a cause. This game isn't about war as much as you think it is and anyone who just see's it as such a simple idea doesn't get what BioWare was trying to write in my opinion.

If they were truly trying to write an exam, it is lame. Why people have bad reaction to bad themes? Well it's because bad themes are bad.

Hey, look, it is Mass Effect 3, a game about a star brat giving all races of the universe a test to build a mysterious device called the Crucible, which is capable of space magic and about your character taking this test. The fate of the galaxy is at stake and if you fail the test they will destroy you! Would anyone seriously play such a game if Mass Effect 3 is described as such?

The war has always been the theme, building the relationships between species, characters, resolving the conflicts has always been the theme up until the ending, in which none of the species, characters and decisions matter.

Without an agreement with a worthy organic ( not because of a test but the trials of life ) the Catalysts idea for Synthesis would never work in theory. I'm sure at any point if this wasn't true the Reapers would have just implimented the Synthesis technology a long time ago.

Granted Shepard doesn't speak for everyone but to the Starchild he might as well. It makes no difference. If one agrees many more will and Synthesis can work. Not in function but in a sense of cohesion. Of course war is a theme in this game, so is comedy.

[DrunkenRonin]

Pfffft. The catalyst is the real hero, the reapers are helping, and you people just have to get past your morals to see the light. If OP is gonna troll is too much to ask for a little sound logic, reason, and perhaps a coherent paragraph.

[Razerath]

The Angry One wrote...

Razerath wrote...

The Reapers could harvest all life forever. That means the threat is real. The technology exists in the universe to wipe organics out. How is that not the proof you claim isn't there? The fact that they haven't is just more proof that the Catalyst is not lying.

Wiping out organics on every world in every galaxy would be an impossible, futile and inefficient undertaking.

The technology exists to irradiate this planet several times over today. Does that mean we must be killed before we use it? Again, mere existence means nothing.

All organic life or some organic life. The Reapers deal in the whole galaxy, you're talking about one world's problems.

[sydranark]

The Angry One wrote...

Shepard is not weak minded!
That's why Shepard surrendered to the leader of the Reapers without argument!

Wait..

+1

[estebanus]

A strong mind doesn't make you immune to indoctrination. How the hell did you get that idea?!

Shepard isn't superman, s/he's just a human being, no matter what way you look at it.

[Razerath]

DrunkenRonin wrote...

Pfffft. The catalyst is the real hero, the reapers are helping, and you people just have to get past your morals to see the light. If OP is gonna troll is too much to ask for a little sound logic, reason, and perhaps a coherent paragraph.

Can't pick up what I am putting down? That's OK.

[Mann42]

I pretty much agree with everything The Angry One says here. I will leave this thread content with the knowledge that TAO is here schooling the OP.

[The Angry One]

Razerath wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Razerath wrote...

The Reapers could harvest all life forever. That means the threat is real. The technology exists in the universe to wipe organics out. How is that not the proof you claim isn't there? The fact that they haven't is just more proof that the Catalyst is not lying.

Wiping out organics on every world in every galaxy would be an impossible, futile and inefficient undertaking.

The technology exists to irradiate this planet several times over today. Does that mean we must be killed before we use it? Again, mere existence means nothing.

All organic life or some organic life. The Reapers deal in the whole galaxy, you're talking about one world's problems.

It's called scale. I'm giving an example. As far as we know at this moment in time, Earth is the only planet in the whole universe with life as we know it. We could blow it up tomorrow because of a border dispute.
The technology exists, therefore this is proof that it will happen. Your logic, not mine.

[Razerath]

estebanus wrote...

A strong mind doesn't make you immune to indoctrination. How the hell did you get that idea?!

Shepard isn't superman, s/he's just a human being, no matter what way you look at it.

I never said immunity. I said he never was indoctrinated and there could be a thousand reasons why but one thing is certain. If they tried to indoctrinate him on purpose or even by accident, they failed. He is strong minded.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Razerath wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Razerath wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Razerath wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

For the 10th freaking time. The Reapers. Claim. To stop. The problem.
According to them, they are not the problem. So how can they be an example of the problem?

How can you not see how ridiculous your stance of trusting what the Reapers claim while calling them liars is?

They Reap. They kill. They do what no organic would want and they do it because in order to preserve life it has to be done. This is our shield against future potential AI's like the Reapers. In short, we're lucky that this Catalyst is around and not some other menacing AI bent on being dominate in the galaxy.

Of course the Catalyst would want all this to stop, if it could. Until the end of ME3 it couldn't stop and now it can. Trust/Mistrust is not an option when you have virtually nothing to lose anyway. But to be honest, I would trust the story the Catalyst is giving out. Why not? No choice given to Shepard had an option to kill more organics than the Reapers already were.

It's not your shield. It's your grave. Make no mistake, if you prove to be valuable to harvest you first will be squashed to goo and pumped through tubes to the reaper reproduction machine. You will be killed in the most gruesome way before that pulp is being used. I don't think you will be very grateful when that happens to you, your loved ones, and everyone else of your race, unless you have their very same cyclical serial killer instict they have with no empathy, no remorse and no respect for life. These lives are being taken not to make them the savior of organic life, but to reproduce themselves and to stay on top of the food chain. Every other race they cannot use is just exterminated or kept alive until they prove to be valueable in the next cycle. The only way out is to get rid of them, because any other option condones their behavior and does not make sure they cannot do it again. The weak point in the destruction option is that the geth are once more the victim of idiocracy which forces Shepard to commit genocide.

To those who have fallen in this game, it is not pointless. To all those trillions of souls, it is not pointless. What would be pointless is to let it happen forever. From the first Reaper cycle on organics have been trying to stop the Reapers and none of them could because none of them had learned the value of cohesion. In the lore it was said that countless cycles have tried to work on a solution to the Reapers, slowly that idea became more cohesive. Eventually it worked and Shepard is now left with a choice to make that if any cycle before could have managed they would have done as well.

Of course it is pointless. And here is why:

It appears to me that the brat and the reapers cannot be as smart as they think they are when they exterminate organics to prevent the creation of synthetics who may or may not exterminate organics. Not only is this circular logic, it is also counterproductive to destroy what you claim to preserve.

While it is true that life will reboot somewhere else, it does exterminate the current races with the precision that only a state of the art race of serial killers can achieve. Much like serial killers the reapers have no empathy, no remorse and no respect for existing life. It also violates the right of self-determination, because they are self-proclaimed saviors of the galaxy which force "their help" onto the civilizations. There is nothing to save when the organics can do fine without them.

Another problem is that there are no indications that synthetics become hostile as predicted by the reapers, unless they are turned hostile by those very same reapers. That happened with both the geth and the zha'til. In other cases the geth defend themselves against genocide committed by the quarians, which sounds reasonable to me. The brat then points out that the synthetics are the problem, even though we can only see that the reapers have caused more harm than the synthetics ever inflicted.

So when the synthetics are nothing but a rationalization, all that remains is the motive the reapers have for their cyclical genocides: To reproduce themselves and to stay on top of the food chain. That's one we can see in-game and that's the one we have fought against ever since we met Saren and the heretics and the mystery of the reapers unfolded.

We know that the Geth will fight to kill when they feel their race is threatened. There is your current proof. Half the problem I have with what you've written is assuming that the Reapers care about an individual life. They probably don't even see it that way. They likely view it as "Organic Life" and "Synthetic Life". And it's not circular logic if you know that one day, as the Starchild, an organic will make it's way to you with the wisdom of the Catalyst itself and make the right choice. The Catalyst can only theorize that Synthesis will be the perfect choice because with an organic to approve it would be an untested theory.

The Reapers also don't kill all life. They leave quite a bit around the galaxy. A lot of civilizations, plants, animals etc... We just don't see much comparison in the game since the games focus on the few advanced races almost alone.

Proof? Please pay attention to what happens in-game. The heretics were turned hostile by the reapers and the geth were attacked by the quarians and thus they fight. They were either forced to fight or forced to defend themselves. If your country is being invaded then you fight with a reason: Freedom. The same goes for the geth.

The reapers are even more evil than you think. They set traps, like mass relays, the Citadel, and technology. That way the civilizations develop along paths they desire and thus become mmore valuable when it is time to harvest them.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 25 juin 2012 - 12:50 .

[DirtySHISN0]

sydranark wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Shepard is not weak minded!
That's why Shepard surrendered to the leader of the Reapers without argument!

Wait..

+1

How do you resist a being of light?

[Razerath]

The Angry One wrote...

Razerath wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Razerath wrote...

The Reapers could harvest all life forever. That means the threat is real. The technology exists in the universe to wipe organics out. How is that not the proof you claim isn't there? The fact that they haven't is just more proof that the Catalyst is not lying.

Wiping out organics on every world in every galaxy would be an impossible, futile and inefficient undertaking.

The technology exists to irradiate this planet several times over today. Does that mean we must be killed before we use it? Again, mere existence means nothing.

All organic life or some organic life. The Reapers deal in the whole galaxy, you're talking about one world's problems.

It's called scale. I'm giving an example. As far as we know at this moment in time, Earth is the only planet in the whole universe with life as we know it. We could blow it up tomorrow because of a border dispute.
The technology exists, therefore this is proof that it will happen. Your logic, not mine.

Proof that it will happen tomorrow or proof that someone will set off that bomb because... America already dropped a Nuke during war. I personally believe this world will end in fire, who knows when.

[estebanus]

Razerath wrote...

estebanus wrote...

A strong mind doesn't make you immune to indoctrination. How the hell did you get that idea?!

Shepard isn't superman, s/he's just a human being, no matter what way you look at it.

I never said immunity. I said he never was indoctrinated and there could be a thousand reasons why but one thing is certain. If they tried to indoctrinate him on purpose or even by accident, they failed. He is strong minded.

They only fail if Shepard picks destroy, or that's at least what the IT says. They manage to indoctrinate the commander by luring him/her into choosing control or synthesis.

[Razerath]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Razerath wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Razerath wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Razerath wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

For the 10th freaking time. The Reapers. Claim. To stop. The problem.
According to them, they are not the problem. So how can they be an example of the problem?

How can you not see how ridiculous your stance of trusting what the Reapers claim while calling them liars is?

They Reap. They kill. They do what no organic would want and they do it because in order to preserve life it has to be done. This is our shield against future potential AI's like the Reapers. In short, we're lucky that this Catalyst is around and not some other menacing AI bent on being dominate in the galaxy.

Of course the Catalyst would want all this to stop, if it could. Until the end of ME3 it couldn't stop and now it can. Trust/Mistrust is not an option when you have virtually nothing to lose anyway. But to be honest, I would trust the story the Catalyst is giving out. Why not? No choice given to Shepard had an option to kill more organics than the Reapers already were.

It's not your shield. It's your grave. Make no mistake, if you prove to be valuable to harvest you first will be squashed to goo and pumped through tubes to the reaper reproduction machine. You will be killed in the most gruesome way before that pulp is being used. I don't think you will be very grateful when that happens to you, your loved ones, and everyone else of your race, unless you have their very same cyclical serial killer instict they have with no empathy, no remorse and no respect for life. These lives are being taken not to make them the savior of organic life, but to reproduce themselves and to stay on top of the food chain. Every other race they cannot use is just exterminated or kept alive until they prove to be valueable in the next cycle. The only way out is to get rid of them, because any other option condones their behavior and does not make sure they cannot do it again. The weak point in the destruction option is that the geth are once more the victim of idiocracy which forces Shepard to commit genocide.

To those who have fallen in this game, it is not pointless. To all those trillions of souls, it is not pointless. What would be pointless is to let it happen forever. From the first Reaper cycle on organics have been trying to stop the Reapers and none of them could because none of them had learned the value of cohesion. In the lore it was said that countless cycles have tried to work on a solution to the Reapers, slowly that idea became more cohesive. Eventually it worked and Shepard is now left with a choice to make that if any cycle before could have managed they would have done as well.

Of course it is pointless. And here is why:

It appears to me that the brat and the reapers cannot be as smart as they think they are when they exterminate organics to prevent the creation of synthetics who may or may not exterminate organics. Not only is this circular logic, it is also counterproductive to destroy what you claim to preserve.

While it is true that life will reboot somewhere else, it does exterminate the current races with the precision that only a state of the art race of serial killers can achieve. Much like serial killers the reapers have no empathy, no remorse and no respect for existing life. It also violates the right of self-determination, because they are self-proclaimed saviors of the galaxy which force "their help" onto the civilizations. There is nothing to save when the organics can do fine without them.

Another problem is that there are no indications that synthetics become hostile as predicted by the reapers, unless they are turned hostile by those very same reapers. That happened with both the geth and the zha'til. In other cases the geth defend themselves against genocide committed by the quarians, which sounds reasonable to me. The brat then points out that the synthetics are the problem, even though we can only see that the reapers have caused more harm than the synthetics ever inflicted.

So when the synthetics are nothing but a rationalization, all that remains is the motive the reapers have for their cyclical genocides: To reproduce themselves and to stay on top of the food chain. That's one we can see in-game and that's the one we have fought against ever since we met Saren and the heretics and the mystery of the reapers unfolded.

We know that the Geth will fight to kill when they feel their race is threatened. There is your current proof. Half the problem I have with what you've written is assuming that the Reapers care about an individual life. They probably don't even see it that way. They likely view it as "Organic Life" and "Synthetic Life". And it's not circular logic if you know that one day, as the Starchild, an organic will make it's way to you with the wisdom of the Catalyst itself and make the right choice. The Catalyst can only theorize that Synthesis will be the perfect choice because with an organic to approve it would be an untested theory.

The Reapers also don't kill all life. They leave quite a bit around the galaxy. A lot of civilizations, plants, animals etc... We just don't see much comparison in the game since the games focus on the few advanced races almost alone.

Proof? Please pay attention to what happens in-game. The heretics were turned hostile by the reapers and the geth were attacked by the quarians and thus they fight. They were either forced to fight or forced to defend themselves. If your country is being invaded then you fight with a reason: Freedom. The same goes for the geth.

Unless the Quarian fleet stops it's aggression the Geth would kill them. That's without Reaper influence and out of survival. We know they will defend their race by killing another.

[Razerath]

estebanus wrote...

Razerath wrote...

estebanus wrote...

A strong mind doesn't make you immune to indoctrination. How the hell did you get that idea?!

Shepard isn't superman, s/he's just a human being, no matter what way you look at it.

I never said immunity. I said he never was indoctrinated and there could be a thousand reasons why but one thing is certain. If they tried to indoctrinate him on purpose or even by accident, they failed. He is strong minded.

They only fail if Shepard picks destroy, or that's at least what the IT says. They manage to indoctrinate the commander by luring him/her into choosing control or synthesis.

And in IT there is no basis for the other two options being manipulative in a bad way.

[The Angry One]

Razerath wrote...

Proof that it will happen tomorrow or proof that someone will set off that bomb because... America already dropped a Nuke during war.

That's not proof. That's probability. Again.
Probability does not justify anything. Or do you then follow that since America demonstrated the ability and willingness to use an atomic bomb, the entire continental United States must be carpet bombed for the greater good?

I personally believe this world will end in fire, who knows when.

Oh you're one of those. Should've guessed.

[KDD-0063]

Razerath wrote...

Without an agreement with a worthy organic ( not because of a test but the trials of life ) the Catalysts idea for Synthesis would never work in theory. I'm sure at any point if this wasn't true the Reapers would have just implimented the Synthesis technology a long time ago.

Granted Shepard doesn't speak for everyone but to the Starchild he might as well. It makes no difference. If one agrees many more will and Synthesis can work. Not in function but in a sense of cohesion. Of course war is a theme in this game, so is comedy.

I don't have a problem with you interpreting the god child's test as the theme of the game and saying games about tests from star brats are awesome.
The problem is, if a test is the main theme of the game, this game is a bad. It is lame. It is unsatisfying. It is not interesting. It cannot be the sequal to ME1 and ME2 which was not about any test from star brat in any way. In my opinion. In many people's opinion.

Modifié par KDD-0063, 25 juin 2012 - 12:54 .

[estebanus]

Razerath wrote...

estebanus wrote...

Razerath wrote...

estebanus wrote...

A strong mind doesn't make you immune to indoctrination. How the hell did you get that idea?!

Shepard isn't superman, s/he's just a human being, no matter what way you look at it.

I never said immunity. I said he never was indoctrinated and there could be a thousand reasons why but one thing is certain. If they tried to indoctrinate him on purpose or even by accident, they failed. He is strong minded.

They only fail if Shepard picks destroy, or that's at least what the IT says. They manage to indoctrinate the commander by luring him/her into choosing control or synthesis.

And in IT there is no basis for the other two options being manipulative in a bad way.

How so?

[Ticonderoga117]

DirtySHISN0 wrote...

sydranark wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Shepard is not weak minded!
That's why Shepard surrendered to the leader of the Reapers without argument!

Wait..

+1

How do you resist a being of light?

Being of light? He's a hologram. Reformat his storage device. Install a better game over him. Something.

[The Angry One]

Razerath wrote...

Unless the Quarian fleet stops it's aggression the Geth would kill them. That's without Reaper influence and out of survival. We know they will defend their race by killing another.

So they should do what? Float around? Run and get shot to pieces?
It seems the fact that if the Quarians stand down, the Geth do also without question every single time without any input from everyone flies over your head.

[Ryven]

Razerath wrote...


Unless the Quarian fleet stops it's aggression the Geth would kill them. That's without Reaper influence and out of survival. We know they will defend their race by killing another.

Ok. I may have to play it again, but I could have sworn the reason the Geth suddenly started winning WAS because of Reaper influence. For a race wanting to defend us from synthetics, they sure did go out of there way to help the Geth on Rannoch.

[BatmanTurian]

KDD-0063 wrote...

Razerath wrote...

Without an agreement with a worthy organic ( not because of a test but the trials of life ) the Catalysts idea for Synthesis would never work in theory. I'm sure at any point if this wasn't true the Reapers would have just implimented the Synthesis technology a long time ago.

Granted Shepard doesn't speak for everyone but to the Starchild he might as well. It makes no difference. If one agrees many more will and Synthesis can work. Not in function but in a sense of cohesion. Of course war is a theme in this game, so is comedy.

I don't have a problem with you interpreting the god child's test as the theme of the game and saying games about tests from star brats are awesome.
The problem is, if a test is the main theme of the game, this game is a bad game, period. In my opinion. In many people's opinion.

In my opinion, opinions are worthless.

[warlock22]

estebanus wrote...

A strong mind doesn't make you immune to indoctrination. How the hell did you get that idea?!

Shepard isn't superman, s/he's just a human being, no matter what way you look at it.

This^