390 réponses à ce sujet

[AngryFrozenWater]

Razerath wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Razerath wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Razerath wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Razerath wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

For the 10th freaking time. The Reapers. Claim. To stop. The problem.
According to them, they are not the problem. So how can they be an example of the problem?

How can you not see how ridiculous your stance of trusting what the Reapers claim while calling them liars is?

They Reap. They kill. They do what no organic would want and they do it because in order to preserve life it has to be done. This is our shield against future potential AI's like the Reapers. In short, we're lucky that this Catalyst is around and not some other menacing AI bent on being dominate in the galaxy.

Of course the Catalyst would want all this to stop, if it could. Until the end of ME3 it couldn't stop and now it can. Trust/Mistrust is not an option when you have virtually nothing to lose anyway. But to be honest, I would trust the story the Catalyst is giving out. Why not? No choice given to Shepard had an option to kill more organics than the Reapers already were.

It's not your shield. It's your grave. Make no mistake, if you prove to be valuable to harvest you first will be squashed to goo and pumped through tubes to the reaper reproduction machine. You will be killed in the most gruesome way before that pulp is being used. I don't think you will be very grateful when that happens to you, your loved ones, and everyone else of your race, unless you have their very same cyclical serial killer instict they have with no empathy, no remorse and no respect for life. These lives are being taken not to make them the savior of organic life, but to reproduce themselves and to stay on top of the food chain. Every other race they cannot use is just exterminated or kept alive until they prove to be valueable in the next cycle. The only way out is to get rid of them, because any other option condones their behavior and does not make sure they cannot do it again. The weak point in the destruction option is that the geth are once more the victim of idiocracy which forces Shepard to commit genocide.

To those who have fallen in this game, it is not pointless. To all those trillions of souls, it is not pointless. What would be pointless is to let it happen forever. From the first Reaper cycle on organics have been trying to stop the Reapers and none of them could because none of them had learned the value of cohesion. In the lore it was said that countless cycles have tried to work on a solution to the Reapers, slowly that idea became more cohesive. Eventually it worked and Shepard is now left with a choice to make that if any cycle before could have managed they would have done as well.

Of course it is pointless. And here is why:

It appears to me that the brat and the reapers cannot be as smart as they think they are when they exterminate organics to prevent the creation of synthetics who may or may not exterminate organics. Not only is this circular logic, it is also counterproductive to destroy what you claim to preserve.

While it is true that life will reboot somewhere else, it does exterminate the current races with the precision that only a state of the art race of serial killers can achieve. Much like serial killers the reapers have no empathy, no remorse and no respect for existing life. It also violates the right of self-determination, because they are self-proclaimed saviors of the galaxy which force "their help" onto the civilizations. There is nothing to save when the organics can do fine without them.

Another problem is that there are no indications that synthetics become hostile as predicted by the reapers, unless they are turned hostile by those very same reapers. That happened with both the geth and the zha'til. In other cases the geth defend themselves against genocide committed by the quarians, which sounds reasonable to me. The brat then points out that the synthetics are the problem, even though we can only see that the reapers have caused more harm than the synthetics ever inflicted.

So when the synthetics are nothing but a rationalization, all that remains is the motive the reapers have for their cyclical genocides: To reproduce themselves and to stay on top of the food chain. That's one we can see in-game and that's the one we have fought against ever since we met Saren and the heretics and the mystery of the reapers unfolded.

We know that the Geth will fight to kill when they feel their race is threatened. There is your current proof. Half the problem I have with what you've written is assuming that the Reapers care about an individual life. They probably don't even see it that way. They likely view it as "Organic Life" and "Synthetic Life". And it's not circular logic if you know that one day, as the Starchild, an organic will make it's way to you with the wisdom of the Catalyst itself and make the right choice. The Catalyst can only theorize that Synthesis will be the perfect choice because with an organic to approve it would be an untested theory.

The Reapers also don't kill all life. They leave quite a bit around the galaxy. A lot of civilizations, plants, animals etc... We just don't see much comparison in the game since the games focus on the few advanced races almost alone.

Proof? Please pay attention to what happens in-game. The heretics were turned hostile by the reapers and the geth were attacked by the quarians and thus they fight. They were either forced to fight or forced to defend themselves. If your country is being invaded then you fight with a reason: Freedom. The same goes for the geth.

Unless the Quarian fleet stops it's aggression the Geth would kill them. That's without Reaper influence and out of survival. We know they will defend their race by killing another.

Again you got your facts wrong. The geth did cease fire and the quarians kept attacking them and didn't even care that Shepard and part of his/her crew were under fire as well. The quarians stopped their insanity because Shepard convinced them. I am really wondering if you played the game at all.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 25 juin 2012 - 12:57 .

[sAxMoNkI]

Razerath wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Razerath wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Razerath wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Razerath wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

For the 10th freaking time. The Reapers. Claim. To stop. The problem.
According to them, they are not the problem. So how can they be an example of the problem?

How can you not see how ridiculous your stance of trusting what the Reapers claim while calling them liars is?

They Reap. They kill. They do what no organic would want and they do it because in order to preserve life it has to be done. This is our shield against future potential AI's like the Reapers. In short, we're lucky that this Catalyst is around and not some other menacing AI bent on being dominate in the galaxy.

Of course the Catalyst would want all this to stop, if it could. Until the end of ME3 it couldn't stop and now it can. Trust/Mistrust is not an option when you have virtually nothing to lose anyway. But to be honest, I would trust the story the Catalyst is giving out. Why not? No choice given to Shepard had an option to kill more organics than the Reapers already were.

It's not your shield. It's your grave. Make no mistake, if you prove to be valuable to harvest you first will be squashed to goo and pumped through tubes to the reaper reproduction machine. You will be killed in the most gruesome way before that pulp is being used. I don't think you will be very grateful when that happens to you, your loved ones, and everyone else of your race, unless you have their very same cyclical serial killer instict they have with no empathy, no remorse and no respect for life. These lives are being taken not to make them the savior of organic life, but to reproduce themselves and to stay on top of the food chain. Every other race they cannot use is just exterminated or kept alive until they prove to be valueable in the next cycle. The only way out is to get rid of them, because any other option condones their behavior and does not make sure they cannot do it again. The weak point in the destruction option is that the geth are once more the victim of idiocracy which forces Shepard to commit genocide.

To those who have fallen in this game, it is not pointless. To all those trillions of souls, it is not pointless. What would be pointless is to let it happen forever. From the first Reaper cycle on organics have been trying to stop the Reapers and none of them could because none of them had learned the value of cohesion. In the lore it was said that countless cycles have tried to work on a solution to the Reapers, slowly that idea became more cohesive. Eventually it worked and Shepard is now left with a choice to make that if any cycle before could have managed they would have done as well.

Of course it is pointless. And here is why:

It appears to me that the brat and the reapers cannot be as smart as they think they are when they exterminate organics to prevent the creation of synthetics who may or may not exterminate organics. Not only is this circular logic, it is also counterproductive to destroy what you claim to preserve.

While it is true that life will reboot somewhere else, it does exterminate the current races with the precision that only a state of the art race of serial killers can achieve. Much like serial killers the reapers have no empathy, no remorse and no respect for existing life. It also violates the right of self-determination, because they are self-proclaimed saviors of the galaxy which force "their help" onto the civilizations. There is nothing to save when the organics can do fine without them.

Another problem is that there are no indications that synthetics become hostile as predicted by the reapers, unless they are turned hostile by those very same reapers. That happened with both the geth and the zha'til. In other cases the geth defend themselves against genocide committed by the quarians, which sounds reasonable to me. The brat then points out that the synthetics are the problem, even though we can only see that the reapers have caused more harm than the synthetics ever inflicted.

So when the synthetics are nothing but a rationalization, all that remains is the motive the reapers have for their cyclical genocides: To reproduce themselves and to stay on top of the food chain. That's one we can see in-game and that's the one we have fought against ever since we met Saren and the heretics and the mystery of the reapers unfolded.

We know that the Geth will fight to kill when they feel their race is threatened. There is your current proof. Half the problem I have with what you've written is assuming that the Reapers care about an individual life. They probably don't even see it that way. They likely view it as "Organic Life" and "Synthetic Life". And it's not circular logic if you know that one day, as the Starchild, an organic will make it's way to you with the wisdom of the Catalyst itself and make the right choice. The Catalyst can only theorize that Synthesis will be the perfect choice because with an organic to approve it would be an untested theory.

The Reapers also don't kill all life. They leave quite a bit around the galaxy. A lot of civilizations, plants, animals etc... We just don't see much comparison in the game since the games focus on the few advanced races almost alone.

Proof? Please pay attention to what happens in-game. The heretics were turned hostile by the reapers and the geth were attacked by the quarians and thus they fight. They were either forced to fight or forced to defend themselves. If your country is being invaded then you fight with a reason: Freedom. The same goes for the geth.

Unless the Quarian fleet stops it's aggression the Geth would kill them. That's without Reaper influence and out of survival. We know they will defend their race by killing another.

Yeah and if I run and attack a bear what will happen to me? Oh I get killed...had I left the bear to its own devices I imagine it would not have done so. Quarians jabbed the geth bear with a stick.

Also to the bolded part: that's different to any other creature how exactly? If you are trying to say they would exterminate a race that attacked them however that is wrong. If that were true there would have been no Quarians left to escape Rannoch at the end of the morning war.

[Razerath]

The Angry One wrote...

Razerath wrote...

Proof that it will happen tomorrow or proof that someone will set off that bomb because... America already dropped a Nuke during war.

That's not proof. That's probability. Again.
Probability does not justify anything. Or do you then follow that since America demonstrated the ability and willingness to use an atomic bomb, the entire continental United States must be carpet bombed for the greater good?

I personally believe this world will end in fire, who knows when.

Oh you're one of those. Should've guessed.

No, not that America should be carpet bombed but all NUKES should be destroyed along with any technology capable of wiping everyone out. This of course will likely never happen but that is my answer. And yes because it likely won't happen I really do feel like when the end of the world happens, it won't be when our Sun dies out. It will be when several maniacs press some buttons.

[estebanus]

Razerath wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Razerath wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Razerath wrote...

The Reapers could harvest all life forever. That means the threat is real. The technology exists in the universe to wipe organics out. How is that not the proof you claim isn't there? The fact that they haven't is just more proof that the Catalyst is not lying.

Wiping out organics on every world in every galaxy would be an impossible, futile and inefficient undertaking.

The technology exists to irradiate this planet several times over today. Does that mean we must be killed before we use it? Again, mere existence means nothing.

All organic life or some organic life. The Reapers deal in the whole galaxy, you're talking about one world's problems.

It's called scale. I'm giving an example. As far as we know at this moment in time, Earth is the only planet in the whole universe with life as we know it. We could blow it up tomorrow because of a border dispute.
The technology exists, therefore this is proof that it will happen. Your logic, not mine.

Proof that it will happen tomorrow or proof that someone will set off that bomb because... America already dropped a Nuke during war. I personally believe this world will end in fire, who knows when.

Nice. great.

And who would be the two sides fighting eachother? USA and China? USA and North Korea? Or possibly a reliving of the cold war, USA and Russia?

Think about how big the probabillity is of any of these outcomes to actually happen, considering that each one of those countries are totally dependent on each other.

The USA cannot live without China, and vice-versa.

The USA would nuke north Korea off the face of the Earth, considering how few nukes the koreans. 

There would literally be no reason for the USA and Russia to rekindle the flames of the cold war.

[KDD-0063]

BatmanTurian wrote...

KDD-0063 wrote...

Razerath wrote...

Without an agreement with a worthy organic ( not because of a test but the trials of life ) the Catalysts idea for Synthesis would never work in theory. I'm sure at any point if this wasn't true the Reapers would have just implimented the Synthesis technology a long time ago.

Granted Shepard doesn't speak for everyone but to the Starchild he might as well. It makes no difference. If one agrees many more will and Synthesis can work. Not in function but in a sense of cohesion. Of course war is a theme in this game, so is comedy.

I don't have a problem with you interpreting the god child's test as the theme of the game and saying games about tests from star brats are awesome.
The problem is, if a test is the main theme of the game, this game is a bad game, period. In my opinion. In many people's opinion.

In my opinion, opinions are worthless.

Yeah
 

[The Angry One]

Razerath wrote...

No, not that America should be carpet bombed but all NUKES should be destroyed along with any technology capable of wiping everyone out. This of course will likely never happen but that is my answer. And yes because it likely won't happen I really do feel like when the end of the world happens, it won't be when our Sun dies out. It will be when several maniacs press some buttons.

Yeah you'd also have to kill the people who know how to build them. And the scientists who theorise about them.
Technology is not a binary state, you can't just give it and take it away (this is also why the whole mass relay destroyed because Reaper tech argument is a fallacy).

Again you're just relying on what ifs and maybes.
What if we blow ourselves up tomorrow. What if we create robots that overthrow us and make us toil in their underground acid mines.
Yeah, and what if we don't? Killing people and destroying things based on "what if?" is futile.

[Razerath]

KDD-0063 wrote...

Razerath wrote...

Without an agreement with a worthy organic ( not because of a test but the trials of life ) the Catalysts idea for Synthesis would never work in theory. I'm sure at any point if this wasn't true the Reapers would have just implimented the Synthesis technology a long time ago.

Granted Shepard doesn't speak for everyone but to the Starchild he might as well. It makes no difference. If one agrees many more will and Synthesis can work. Not in function but in a sense of cohesion. Of course war is a theme in this game, so is comedy.

I don't have a problem with you interpreting the god child's test as the theme of the game and saying games about tests from star brats are awesome.
The problem is, if a test is the main theme of the game, this game is a bad. It is lame. It is unsatisfying. It is not interesting. It cannot be the sequal to ME1 and ME2 which was not about any test from star brat in any way. In my opinion. In many people's opinion.

I would agree with you if you said that it's not nearly a main theme to the game. It's merely an underlying background ideal as to why the Reapers do what they do. As far as ME1 and 2 being part of it, Shepards whole life is a part of it and I 100% doubt that Starchild knew Shepard was going to be the one to end up there in the end. But Starchild knew some organic might someday and since the last cycle it probably knew that it was going to happen soon given the fact that from cycles before the culmination of efforts was to get someone to that "control room".

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Actually the Quarians had turned the tide against the Geth on Rannoch, then the Reapers increased the intelligence of the Geth with the signal from that destroyer you killed. So if it weren't for the interference of the reapers the Quarians would have won back their homeworld on their own.

[estebanus]

Razerath wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Razerath wrote...

Proof that it will happen tomorrow or proof that someone will set off that bomb because... America already dropped a Nuke during war.

That's not proof. That's probability. Again.
Probability does not justify anything. Or do you then follow that since America demonstrated the ability and willingness to use an atomic bomb, the entire continental United States must be carpet bombed for the greater good?

I personally believe this world will end in fire, who knows when.

Oh you're one of those. Should've guessed.

No, not that America should be carpet bombed but all NUKES should be destroyed along with any technology capable of wiping everyone out. This of course will likely never happen but that is my answer. And yes because it likely won't happen I really do feel like when the end of the world happens, it won't be when our Sun dies out. It will be when several maniacs press some buttons.

You think the decision of simply pressing a button is that simple. Do you really think that the decision to destroy the entire human race is something you do lightly?

The whole idea of nuclear deterrence is that one side won't launch its nuclear weapons in fear of retaliation, because in a nuclear war, there is no victor.

Also, if you've already learned the technology, you can't banish it from the world. If something has been discovered, it will never simply vanish.

[Razerath]

estebanus wrote...

Razerath wrote...

estebanus wrote...

Razerath wrote...

estebanus wrote...

A strong mind doesn't make you immune to indoctrination. How the hell did you get that idea?!

Shepard isn't superman, s/he's just a human being, no matter what way you look at it.

I never said immunity. I said he never was indoctrinated and there could be a thousand reasons why but one thing is certain. If they tried to indoctrinate him on purpose or even by accident, they failed. He is strong minded.

They only fail if Shepard picks destroy, or that's at least what the IT says. They manage to indoctrinate the commander by luring him/her into choosing control or synthesis.

And in IT there is no basis for the other two options being manipulative in a bad way.

How so?

Synthesis doesn't mean Reapers win, everyone wins. Control means that Shepard could stop current Reaping and eventually have to combat some other rogue AI. Unless you believe those two choices don't do what the Catalyst says... which is refuted by the endings. Control, Reapers leave probably because Shepard chooses that. Synthesis, Reapers leave probably to get off our planet as a sign of peace.

[Razerath]

Xydorn wrote...

Razerath wrote...


Unless the Quarian fleet stops it's aggression the Geth would kill them. That's without Reaper influence and out of survival. We know they will defend their race by killing another.

Ok. I may have to play it again, but I could have sworn the reason the Geth suddenly started winning WAS because of Reaper influence. For a race wanting to defend us from synthetics, they sure did go out of there way to help the Geth on Rannoch.

You're right, the Geth started to whoop some but with the upgrades but the final choice to make peace comes down to the Quarians stopping their aggression.

[Razerath]

warlock22 wrote...

estebanus wrote...

A strong mind doesn't make you immune to indoctrination. How the hell did you get that idea?!

Shepard isn't superman, s/he's just a human being, no matter what way you look at it.

This^

I never said he was simply immune, ever. I stated examples of why he could have resisted better than...anyone else.

[AngryFrozenWater]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Actually the Quarians had turned the tide against the Geth on Rannoch, then the Reapers increased the intelligence of the Geth with the signal from that destroyer you killed. So if it weren't for the interference of the reapers the Quarians would have won back their homeworld on their own.

Plus the quarians would have committed genocide against the geth. Remember that the quarians were the aggressors. Shepard was even able to convince both to end their war. After that the geth offered help to rebuild the quarians' homeworld and to improve their immune system.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 25 juin 2012 - 01:06 .

[MattFini]

Mr.House wrote...

1:Shepard never argued
2:Shepard does not endt he war on her terms, but on the Reapers terms
3:She beleives the words of the Reaper leader
4:She does nothing but summit

If that's not surrending to the Reapers, then I don't know what is.

I can't believe there are people who DON'T see it this way.  

[Ryven]

Razerath wrote...

estebanus wrote...

Razerath wrote...

estebanus wrote...

Razerath wrote...

estebanus wrote...

A strong mind doesn't make you immune to indoctrination. How the hell did you get that idea?!

Shepard isn't superman, s/he's just a human being, no matter what way you look at it.

I never said immunity. I said he never was indoctrinated and there could be a thousand reasons why but one thing is certain. If they tried to indoctrinate him on purpose or even by accident, they failed. He is strong minded.

They only fail if Shepard picks destroy, or that's at least what the IT says. They manage to indoctrinate the commander by luring him/her into choosing control or synthesis.

And in IT there is no basis for the other two options being manipulative in a bad way.

How so?

Synthesis doesn't mean Reapers win, everyone wins. Control means that Shepard could stop current Reaping and eventually have to combat some other rogue AI. Unless you believe those two choices don't do what the Catalyst says... which is refuted by the endings. Control, Reapers leave probably because Shepard chooses that. Synthesis, Reapers leave probably to get off our planet as a sign of peace.

Ok. So we, as the audience knows that the catalyst is telling the truth because of the endings. That still doesn't give any reason for Shepard to believe it.

Shepard can't look at the endings then say "Oh. I guess everything works out ok in this one. I better pick it."

Thats why Shepard is suddenly stupid at the end.

[GreenDragon37]

The Angry One wrote...

Shepard is not weak minded!
That's why Shepard surrendered to the leader of the Reapers without argument!

Wait..

This.

[Razerath]

sAxMoNkI wrote...

Razerath wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Razerath wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Razerath wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Razerath wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

For the 10th freaking time. The Reapers. Claim. To stop. The problem.
According to them, they are not the problem. So how can they be an example of the problem?

How can you not see how ridiculous your stance of trusting what the Reapers claim while calling them liars is?

They Reap. They kill. They do what no organic would want and they do it because in order to preserve life it has to be done. This is our shield against future potential AI's like the Reapers. In short, we're lucky that this Catalyst is around and not some other menacing AI bent on being dominate in the galaxy.

Of course the Catalyst would want all this to stop, if it could. Until the end of ME3 it couldn't stop and now it can. Trust/Mistrust is not an option when you have virtually nothing to lose anyway. But to be honest, I would trust the story the Catalyst is giving out. Why not? No choice given to Shepard had an option to kill more organics than the Reapers already were.

It's not your shield. It's your grave. Make no mistake, if you prove to be valuable to harvest you first will be squashed to goo and pumped through tubes to the reaper reproduction machine. You will be killed in the most gruesome way before that pulp is being used. I don't think you will be very grateful when that happens to you, your loved ones, and everyone else of your race, unless you have their very same cyclical serial killer instict they have with no empathy, no remorse and no respect for life. These lives are being taken not to make them the savior of organic life, but to reproduce themselves and to stay on top of the food chain. Every other race they cannot use is just exterminated or kept alive until they prove to be valueable in the next cycle. The only way out is to get rid of them, because any other option condones their behavior and does not make sure they cannot do it again. The weak point in the destruction option is that the geth are once more the victim of idiocracy which forces Shepard to commit genocide.

To those who have fallen in this game, it is not pointless. To all those trillions of souls, it is not pointless. What would be pointless is to let it happen forever. From the first Reaper cycle on organics have been trying to stop the Reapers and none of them could because none of them had learned the value of cohesion. In the lore it was said that countless cycles have tried to work on a solution to the Reapers, slowly that idea became more cohesive. Eventually it worked and Shepard is now left with a choice to make that if any cycle before could have managed they would have done as well.

Of course it is pointless. And here is why:

It appears to me that the brat and the reapers cannot be as smart as they think they are when they exterminate organics to prevent the creation of synthetics who may or may not exterminate organics. Not only is this circular logic, it is also counterproductive to destroy what you claim to preserve.

While it is true that life will reboot somewhere else, it does exterminate the current races with the precision that only a state of the art race of serial killers can achieve. Much like serial killers the reapers have no empathy, no remorse and no respect for existing life. It also violates the right of self-determination, because they are self-proclaimed saviors of the galaxy which force "their help" onto the civilizations. There is nothing to save when the organics can do fine without them.

Another problem is that there are no indications that synthetics become hostile as predicted by the reapers, unless they are turned hostile by those very same reapers. That happened with both the geth and the zha'til. In other cases the geth defend themselves against genocide committed by the quarians, which sounds reasonable to me. The brat then points out that the synthetics are the problem, even though we can only see that the reapers have caused more harm than the synthetics ever inflicted.

So when the synthetics are nothing but a rationalization, all that remains is the motive the reapers have for their cyclical genocides: To reproduce themselves and to stay on top of the food chain. That's one we can see in-game and that's the one we have fought against ever since we met Saren and the heretics and the mystery of the reapers unfolded.

We know that the Geth will fight to kill when they feel their race is threatened. There is your current proof. Half the problem I have with what you've written is assuming that the Reapers care about an individual life. They probably don't even see it that way. They likely view it as "Organic Life" and "Synthetic Life". And it's not circular logic if you know that one day, as the Starchild, an organic will make it's way to you with the wisdom of the Catalyst itself and make the right choice. The Catalyst can only theorize that Synthesis will be the perfect choice because with an organic to approve it would be an untested theory.

The Reapers also don't kill all life. They leave quite a bit around the galaxy. A lot of civilizations, plants, animals etc... We just don't see much comparison in the game since the games focus on the few advanced races almost alone.

Proof? Please pay attention to what happens in-game. The heretics were turned hostile by the reapers and the geth were attacked by the quarians and thus they fight. They were either forced to fight or forced to defend themselves. If your country is being invaded then you fight with a reason: Freedom. The same goes for the geth.

Unless the Quarian fleet stops it's aggression the Geth would kill them. That's without Reaper influence and out of survival. We know they will defend their race by killing another.

Yeah and if I run and attack a bear what will happen to me? Oh I get killed...had I left the bear to its own devices I imagine it would not have done so. Quarians jabbed the geth bear with a stick.

Also to the bolded part: that's different to any other creature how exactly? If you are trying to say they would exterminate a race that attacked them however that is wrong. If that were true there would have been no Quarians left to escape Rannoch at the end of the morning war.

You're making my point. I am saying that this is all proof that currently in the ME Universe that Synthetics have a will to survive. Just because today the Geth haven't decided that organics are an eventual threat they could in the future. The premise of the game suggest that they will actually do that in the future.

[estebanus]

Razerath wrote...

estebanus wrote...

Razerath wrote...

estebanus wrote...

Razerath wrote...

estebanus wrote...

A strong mind doesn't make you immune to indoctrination. How the hell did you get that idea?!

Shepard isn't superman, s/he's just a human being, no matter what way you look at it.

I never said immunity. I said he never was indoctrinated and there could be a thousand reasons why but one thing is certain. If they tried to indoctrinate him on purpose or even by accident, they failed. He is strong minded.

They only fail if Shepard picks destroy, or that's at least what the IT says. They manage to indoctrinate the commander by luring him/her into choosing control or synthesis.

And in IT there is no basis for the other two options being manipulative in a bad way.

How so?

Synthesis doesn't mean Reapers win, everyone wins. Control means that Shepard could stop current Reaping and eventually have to combat some other rogue AI. Unless you believe those two choices don't do what the Catalyst says... which is refuted by the endings. Control, Reapers leave probably because Shepard chooses that. Synthesis, Reapers leave probably to get off our planet as a sign of peace.

Synthesis means that everyone loses... except the reapers. By choosing synthesis, you appease the reapers, changing life into a way these mosters see fit.

Control itself is a complete fallacy. It has been established throughout the whole game that it won't work. The protheans didn't manage it, and the illusive man sure as hell also didn't.
Even if SHepard manages to control the reapers, s/he eventually will go insane, be it from solitude and lonelines, or be it from sleeplesness. After all, Shepard is just a human, and s/he's supposed to be able to control eons old machines more technologically enhanced that you could possibly comprehend? Nuh-uh.

Observe what happened to David Archer, and just replace him with Shepard. that'll give you a clear picture of what will eventually happen in control.

[sAxMoNkI]

Razerath wrote...

sAxMoNkI wrote...

Yeah and if I run and attack a bear what will happen to me? Oh I get killed...had I left the bear to its own devices I imagine it would not have done so. Quarians jabbed the geth bear with a stick.

Also to the bolded part: that's different to any other creature how exactly? If you are trying to say they would exterminate a race that attacked them however that is wrong. If that were true there would have been no Quarians left to escape Rannoch at the end of the morning war.

You're making my point. I am saying that this is all proof that currently in the ME Universe that Synthetics have a will to survive. Just because today the Geth haven't decided that organics are an eventual threat they could in the future. The premise of the game suggest that they will actually do that in the future.

...except for the fact that in every instance where the quarians have fled/ stopped attacking the geth have stopped and even offered help to their aggressors.

The danger of synthetics doesn't even come from their survival instinct, it comes from the concept of a technological singularity, a point at which synthetic life is so far advanced compared to organic life that we CANNOT compete. Even in this situation however (and in some respects especially in this situation) organic extinction is not by any means a for gone conclusion. With the synthetics being so advanced organics pose zero threat and thus are simply ignored.

Modifié par sAxMoNkI, 25 juin 2012 - 01:10 .

[Razerath]

estebanus wrote...

Razerath wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Razerath wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Razerath wrote...

The Reapers could harvest all life forever. That means the threat is real. The technology exists in the universe to wipe organics out. How is that not the proof you claim isn't there? The fact that they haven't is just more proof that the Catalyst is not lying.

Wiping out organics on every world in every galaxy would be an impossible, futile and inefficient undertaking.

The technology exists to irradiate this planet several times over today. Does that mean we must be killed before we use it? Again, mere existence means nothing.

All organic life or some organic life. The Reapers deal in the whole galaxy, you're talking about one world's problems.

It's called scale. I'm giving an example. As far as we know at this moment in time, Earth is the only planet in the whole universe with life as we know it. We could blow it up tomorrow because of a border dispute.
The technology exists, therefore this is proof that it will happen. Your logic, not mine.

Proof that it will happen tomorrow or proof that someone will set off that bomb because... America already dropped a Nuke during war. I personally believe this world will end in fire, who knows when.

Nice. great.

And who would be the two sides fighting eachother? USA and China? USA and North Korea? Or possibly a reliving of the cold war, USA and Russia?

Think about how big the probabillity is of any of these outcomes to actually happen, considering that each one of those countries are totally dependent on each other.

The USA cannot live without China, and vice-versa.

The USA would nuke north Korea off the face of the Earth, considering how few nukes the koreans. 

There would literally be no reason for the USA and Russia to rekindle the flames of the cold war.

All I am saying is someone already for whatever reasons decided that a nuke was the answer. Could this happen again? Hell yes. Would it be worse now? Most likely. It doesn't mater who needs who, all it takes is the right person at the right time to make a very important decision.

Extremists and terrorists have a fetish for things like Nukes....why? Power, control and ultimately a sword to fight with.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Razerath wrote...

sAxMoNkI wrote...

Razerath wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Razerath wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Razerath wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Razerath wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

For the 10th freaking time. The Reapers. Claim. To stop. The problem.
According to them, they are not the problem. So how can they be an example of the problem?

How can you not see how ridiculous your stance of trusting what the Reapers claim while calling them liars is?

They Reap. They kill. They do what no organic would want and they do it because in order to preserve life it has to be done. This is our shield against future potential AI's like the Reapers. In short, we're lucky that this Catalyst is around and not some other menacing AI bent on being dominate in the galaxy.

Of course the Catalyst would want all this to stop, if it could. Until the end of ME3 it couldn't stop and now it can. Trust/Mistrust is not an option when you have virtually nothing to lose anyway. But to be honest, I would trust the story the Catalyst is giving out. Why not? No choice given to Shepard had an option to kill more organics than the Reapers already were.

It's not your shield. It's your grave. Make no mistake, if you prove to be valuable to harvest you first will be squashed to goo and pumped through tubes to the reaper reproduction machine. You will be killed in the most gruesome way before that pulp is being used. I don't think you will be very grateful when that happens to you, your loved ones, and everyone else of your race, unless you have their very same cyclical serial killer instict they have with no empathy, no remorse and no respect for life. These lives are being taken not to make them the savior of organic life, but to reproduce themselves and to stay on top of the food chain. Every other race they cannot use is just exterminated or kept alive until they prove to be valueable in the next cycle. The only way out is to get rid of them, because any other option condones their behavior and does not make sure they cannot do it again. The weak point in the destruction option is that the geth are once more the victim of idiocracy which forces Shepard to commit genocide.

To those who have fallen in this game, it is not pointless. To all those trillions of souls, it is not pointless. What would be pointless is to let it happen forever. From the first Reaper cycle on organics have been trying to stop the Reapers and none of them could because none of them had learned the value of cohesion. In the lore it was said that countless cycles have tried to work on a solution to the Reapers, slowly that idea became more cohesive. Eventually it worked and Shepard is now left with a choice to make that if any cycle before could have managed they would have done as well.

Of course it is pointless. And here is why:

It appears to me that the brat and the reapers cannot be as smart as they think they are when they exterminate organics to prevent the creation of synthetics who may or may not exterminate organics. Not only is this circular logic, it is also counterproductive to destroy what you claim to preserve.

While it is true that life will reboot somewhere else, it does exterminate the current races with the precision that only a state of the art race of serial killers can achieve. Much like serial killers the reapers have no empathy, no remorse and no respect for existing life. It also violates the right of self-determination, because they are self-proclaimed saviors of the galaxy which force "their help" onto the civilizations. There is nothing to save when the organics can do fine without them.

Another problem is that there are no indications that synthetics become hostile as predicted by the reapers, unless they are turned hostile by those very same reapers. That happened with both the geth and the zha'til. In other cases the geth defend themselves against genocide committed by the quarians, which sounds reasonable to me. The brat then points out that the synthetics are the problem, even though we can only see that the reapers have caused more harm than the synthetics ever inflicted.

So when the synthetics are nothing but a rationalization, all that remains is the motive the reapers have for their cyclical genocides: To reproduce themselves and to stay on top of the food chain. That's one we can see in-game and that's the one we have fought against ever since we met Saren and the heretics and the mystery of the reapers unfolded.

We know that the Geth will fight to kill when they feel their race is threatened. There is your current proof. Half the problem I have with what you've written is assuming that the Reapers care about an individual life. They probably don't even see it that way. They likely view it as "Organic Life" and "Synthetic Life". And it's not circular logic if you know that one day, as the Starchild, an organic will make it's way to you with the wisdom of the Catalyst itself and make the right choice. The Catalyst can only theorize that Synthesis will be the perfect choice because with an organic to approve it would be an untested theory.

The Reapers also don't kill all life. They leave quite a bit around the galaxy. A lot of civilizations, plants, animals etc... We just don't see much comparison in the game since the games focus on the few advanced races almost alone.

Proof? Please pay attention to what happens in-game. The heretics were turned hostile by the reapers and the geth were attacked by the quarians and thus they fight. They were either forced to fight or forced to defend themselves. If your country is being invaded then you fight with a reason: Freedom. The same goes for the geth.

Unless the Quarian fleet stops it's aggression the Geth would kill them. That's without Reaper influence and out of survival. We know they will defend their race by killing another.

Yeah and if I run and attack a bear what will happen to me? Oh I get killed...had I left the bear to its own devices I imagine it would not have done so. Quarians jabbed the geth bear with a stick.

Also to the bolded part: that's different to any other creature how exactly? If you are trying to say they would exterminate a race that attacked them however that is wrong. If that were true there would have been no Quarians left to escape Rannoch at the end of the morning war.

You're making my point. I am saying that this is all proof that currently in the ME Universe that Synthetics have a will to survive. Just because today the Geth haven't decided that organics are an eventual threat they could in the future. The premise of the game suggest that they will actually do that in the future.

No he/we did not. All that has been proved is that the reapers and the quarians are more of a threat than the geth are.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 25 juin 2012 - 01:10 .

[Razerath]

The Angry One wrote...

Razerath wrote...

No, not that America should be carpet bombed but all NUKES should be destroyed along with any technology capable of wiping everyone out. This of course will likely never happen but that is my answer. And yes because it likely won't happen I really do feel like when the end of the world happens, it won't be when our Sun dies out. It will be when several maniacs press some buttons.

Yeah you'd also have to kill the people who know how to build them. And the scientists who theorise about them.
Technology is not a binary state, you can't just give it and take it away (this is also why the whole mass relay destroyed because Reaper tech argument is a fallacy).

Again you're just relying on what ifs and maybes.
What if we blow ourselves up tomorrow. What if we create robots that overthrow us and make us toil in their underground acid mines.
Yeah, and what if we don't? Killing people and destroying things based on "what if?" is futile.

I'm finally going to say this.

What is wrong with my "what ifs"? This is a game we're talking about and there are nothing but "what ifs" really. Like I said earlier your opinion about this game is no more valid than mine in terms of how to see the ending.

[Oni Changas]

We're arguing with a guy who thinks the catalyst makes sense? Stop it.

Stop. It.

Stop it.

[Taboo]

ARE YOU ****ING SERIOUS?

WHAT IFS?

YOU'RE GAMBLING WITH PEOPLE'S LIVES AND HAPPINESS.

[The Angry One]

Razerath wrote...

I'm finally going to say this.

What is wrong with my "what ifs"? This is a game we're talking about and there are nothing but "what ifs" really. Like I said earlier your opinion about this game is no more valid than mine in terms of how to see the ending.

What's wrong with your what ifs is that you're using them to justify the Catalyst butchering untold numbers of innocents.