390 réponses à ce sujet

[Razerath]

sAxMoNkI wrote...

Razerath wrote...

sAxMoNkI wrote...

Yeah and if I run and attack a bear what will happen to me? Oh I get killed...had I left the bear to its own devices I imagine it would not have done so. Quarians jabbed the geth bear with a stick.

Also to the bolded part: that's different to any other creature how exactly? If you are trying to say they would exterminate a race that attacked them however that is wrong. If that were true there would have been no Quarians left to escape Rannoch at the end of the morning war.

You're making my point. I am saying that this is all proof that currently in the ME Universe that Synthetics have a will to survive. Just because today the Geth haven't decided that organics are an eventual threat they could in the future. The premise of the game suggest that they will actually do that in the future.

...except for the fact that in every instance where the quarians have fled/ stopped attacking the geth have stopped and even offered help to their aggressors.

True, so far. As history will say in the ME Universe it is likely that they will rise up and just finally come to the idea that organics are simply always going to be a threat. Eventually they will Reap and if we're lucky they will stop and see the value of organics when they have taken away from them the means to be dangerous to the Geth.

[Sajuro]

Razerath wrote...

sAxMoNkI wrote...

Razerath wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Razerath wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Razerath wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Razerath wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

For the 10th freaking time. The Reapers. Claim. To stop. The problem.
According to them, they are not the problem. So how can they be an example of the problem?

How can you not see how ridiculous your stance of trusting what the Reapers claim while calling them liars is?

They Reap. They kill. They do what no organic would want and they do it because in order to preserve life it has to be done. This is our shield against future potential AI's like the Reapers. In short, we're lucky that this Catalyst is around and not some other menacing AI bent on being dominate in the galaxy.

Of course the Catalyst would want all this to stop, if it could. Until the end of ME3 it couldn't stop and now it can. Trust/Mistrust is not an option when you have virtually nothing to lose anyway. But to be honest, I would trust the story the Catalyst is giving out. Why not? No choice given to Shepard had an option to kill more organics than the Reapers already were.

It's not your shield. It's your grave. Make no mistake, if you prove to be valuable to harvest you first will be squashed to goo and pumped through tubes to the reaper reproduction machine. You will be killed in the most gruesome way before that pulp is being used. I don't think you will be very grateful when that happens to you, your loved ones, and everyone else of your race, unless you have their very same cyclical serial killer instict they have with no empathy, no remorse and no respect for life. These lives are being taken not to make them the savior of organic life, but to reproduce themselves and to stay on top of the food chain. Every other race they cannot use is just exterminated or kept alive until they prove to be valueable in the next cycle. The only way out is to get rid of them, because any other option condones their behavior and does not make sure they cannot do it again. The weak point in the destruction option is that the geth are once more the victim of idiocracy which forces Shepard to commit genocide.

To those who have fallen in this game, it is not pointless. To all those trillions of souls, it is not pointless. What would be pointless is to let it happen forever. From the first Reaper cycle on organics have been trying to stop the Reapers and none of them could because none of them had learned the value of cohesion. In the lore it was said that countless cycles have tried to work on a solution to the Reapers, slowly that idea became more cohesive. Eventually it worked and Shepard is now left with a choice to make that if any cycle before could have managed they would have done as well.

Of course it is pointless. And here is why:

It appears to me that the brat and the reapers cannot be as smart as they think they are when they exterminate organics to prevent the creation of synthetics who may or may not exterminate organics. Not only is this circular logic, it is also counterproductive to destroy what you claim to preserve.

While it is true that life will reboot somewhere else, it does exterminate the current races with the precision that only a state of the art race of serial killers can achieve. Much like serial killers the reapers have no empathy, no remorse and no respect for existing life. It also violates the right of self-determination, because they are self-proclaimed saviors of the galaxy which force "their help" onto the civilizations. There is nothing to save when the organics can do fine without them.

Another problem is that there are no indications that synthetics become hostile as predicted by the reapers, unless they are turned hostile by those very same reapers. That happened with both the geth and the zha'til. In other cases the geth defend themselves against genocide committed by the quarians, which sounds reasonable to me. The brat then points out that the synthetics are the problem, even though we can only see that the reapers have caused more harm than the synthetics ever inflicted.

So when the synthetics are nothing but a rationalization, all that remains is the motive the reapers have for their cyclical genocides: To reproduce themselves and to stay on top of the food chain. That's one we can see in-game and that's the one we have fought against ever since we met Saren and the heretics and the mystery of the reapers unfolded.

We know that the Geth will fight to kill when they feel their race is threatened. There is your current proof. Half the problem I have with what you've written is assuming that the Reapers care about an individual life. They probably don't even see it that way. They likely view it as "Organic Life" and "Synthetic Life". And it's not circular logic if you know that one day, as the Starchild, an organic will make it's way to you with the wisdom of the Catalyst itself and make the right choice. The Catalyst can only theorize that Synthesis will be the perfect choice because with an organic to approve it would be an untested theory.

The Reapers also don't kill all life. They leave quite a bit around the galaxy. A lot of civilizations, plants, animals etc... We just don't see much comparison in the game since the games focus on the few advanced races almost alone.

Proof? Please pay attention to what happens in-game. The heretics were turned hostile by the reapers and the geth were attacked by the quarians and thus they fight. They were either forced to fight or forced to defend themselves. If your country is being invaded then you fight with a reason: Freedom. The same goes for the geth.

Unless the Quarian fleet stops it's aggression the Geth would kill them. That's without Reaper influence and out of survival. We know they will defend their race by killing another.

Yeah and if I run and attack a bear what will happen to me? Oh I get killed...had I left the bear to its own devices I imagine it would not have done so. Quarians jabbed the geth bear with a stick.

Also to the bolded part: that's different to any other creature how exactly? If you are trying to say they would exterminate a race that attacked them however that is wrong. If that were true there would have been no Quarians left to escape Rannoch at the end of the morning war.

You're making my point. I am saying that this is all proof that currently in the ME Universe that Synthetics have a will to survive. Just because today the Geth haven't decided that organics are an eventual threat they could in the future. The premise of the game suggest that they will actually do that in the future.

So what, we kill them all now? There aren't nuclear weapons in Madagascar but one day there might be so we should just glass the entirety of Africa to make sure nothing like that happens.
Think about the Citadel AI from ME1, it came to the conclusion that all organics want to kill it because you know what, when it awoke its creator tried to kill it and that's why it wanted to be installed into a ship to kill all of the squishies.

[Razerath]

estebanus wrote...

Razerath wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Razerath wrote...

Proof that it will happen tomorrow or proof that someone will set off that bomb because... America already dropped a Nuke during war.

That's not proof. That's probability. Again.
Probability does not justify anything. Or do you then follow that since America demonstrated the ability and willingness to use an atomic bomb, the entire continental United States must be carpet bombed for the greater good?

I personally believe this world will end in fire, who knows when.

Oh you're one of those. Should've guessed.

No, not that America should be carpet bombed but all NUKES should be destroyed along with any technology capable of wiping everyone out. This of course will likely never happen but that is my answer. And yes because it likely won't happen I really do feel like when the end of the world happens, it won't be when our Sun dies out. It will be when several maniacs press some buttons.

You think the decision of simply pressing a button is that simple. Do you really think that the decision to destroy the entire human race is something you do lightly?

The whole idea of nuclear deterrence is that one side won't launch its nuclear weapons in fear of retaliation, because in a nuclear war, there is no victor.

Also, if you've already learned the technology, you can't banish it from the world. If something has been discovered, it will never simply vanish.

Which is why I am sure, like to Krogan homeworld, we will nuke ourselves ( or the equivilant ) into oblivion.

[WandySilva]

The character of Shepard is not weak willed, but the player controlling him may be. IF the Indoctrination theory is true, giving the player the choice to break the indoctrination attempt by staying the course and destroying the reapers, or succumbing to the same ideals of those before him, would be a perfect way to convey the willpower of shepard/the player. to reiterate, the character we play as probably has a strong enough will to break indoctrination, BUT, the player may not be strong enough to resist its tempting promises of peace and happiness that indoctrination ensures us. Making the ending not a trial for shepard, but rather, the players themselves (thats some inception level mindf**kery right there)... Guess we will find out in a few days.

[DrunkenRonin]

Razerath wrote...

DrunkenRonin wrote...

Pfffft. The catalyst is the real hero, the reapers are helping, and you people just have to get past your morals to see the light. If OP is gonna troll is too much to ask for a little sound logic, reason, and perhaps a coherent paragraph.

Can't pick up what I am putting down? That's OK.

Too many moral blocks I guess, far be it from me to stop a pyromaniac in a field of straw men. I brought marshmallows.

[sAxMoNkI]

The Angry One wrote...

Razerath wrote...

I'm finally going to say this.

What is wrong with my "what ifs"? This is a game we're talking about and there are nothing but "what ifs" really. Like I said earlier your opinion about this game is no more valid than mine in terms of how to see the ending.

What's wrong with your what ifs is that you're using them to justify the Catalyst butchering untold numbers of innocents.

I wouldn't worry. OP probably wonders why they go to the trouble of proving guilt 'beyond all reasonable doubt' in courts rather than just giving the guy life in prison because, you know, he could possibly have done it <_<

[Razerath]

Xydorn wrote...

Razerath wrote...

estebanus wrote...

Razerath wrote...

estebanus wrote...

Razerath wrote...

estebanus wrote...

A strong mind doesn't make you immune to indoctrination. How the hell did you get that idea?!

Shepard isn't superman, s/he's just a human being, no matter what way you look at it.

I never said immunity. I said he never was indoctrinated and there could be a thousand reasons why but one thing is certain. If they tried to indoctrinate him on purpose or even by accident, they failed. He is strong minded.

They only fail if Shepard picks destroy, or that's at least what the IT says. They manage to indoctrinate the commander by luring him/her into choosing control or synthesis.

And in IT there is no basis for the other two options being manipulative in a bad way.

How so?

Synthesis doesn't mean Reapers win, everyone wins. Control means that Shepard could stop current Reaping and eventually have to combat some other rogue AI. Unless you believe those two choices don't do what the Catalyst says... which is refuted by the endings. Control, Reapers leave probably because Shepard chooses that. Synthesis, Reapers leave probably to get off our planet as a sign of peace.

Ok. So we, as the audience knows that the catalyst is telling the truth because of the endings. That still doesn't give any reason for Shepard to believe it.

Shepard can't look at the endings then say "Oh. I guess everything works out ok in this one. I better pick it."

Thats why Shepard is suddenly stupid at the end.

So if it was you in Shepards place what would you do in that instance? Anyone can answer this. I am sure, unless you're just joking, you will make one of the choices because the fourth choice is to just watch the fleets fall and then bleed out while the cycle continues.

[estebanus]

Razerath wrote...

estebanus wrote...

Razerath wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Razerath wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Razerath wrote...

The Reapers could harvest all life forever. That means the threat is real. The technology exists in the universe to wipe organics out. How is that not the proof you claim isn't there? The fact that they haven't is just more proof that the Catalyst is not lying.

Wiping out organics on every world in every galaxy would be an impossible, futile and inefficient undertaking.

The technology exists to irradiate this planet several times over today. Does that mean we must be killed before we use it? Again, mere existence means nothing.

All organic life or some organic life. The Reapers deal in the whole galaxy, you're talking about one world's problems.

It's called scale. I'm giving an example. As far as we know at this moment in time, Earth is the only planet in the whole universe with life as we know it. We could blow it up tomorrow because of a border dispute.
The technology exists, therefore this is proof that it will happen. Your logic, not mine.

Proof that it will happen tomorrow or proof that someone will set off that bomb because... America already dropped a Nuke during war. I personally believe this world will end in fire, who knows when.

Nice. great.

And who would be the two sides fighting eachother? USA and China? USA and North Korea? Or possibly a reliving of the cold war, USA and Russia?

Think about how big the probabillity is of any of these outcomes to actually happen, considering that each one of those countries are totally dependent on each other.

The USA cannot live without China, and vice-versa.

The USA would nuke north Korea off the face of the Earth, considering how few nukes the koreans. 

There would literally be no reason for the USA and Russia to rekindle the flames of the cold war.

All I am saying is someone already for whatever reasons decided that a nuke was the answer. Could this happen again? Hell yes. Would it be worse now? Most likely. It doesn't mater who needs who, all it takes is the right person at the right time to make a very important decision.

Extremists and terrorists have a fetish for things like Nukes....why? Power, control and ultimately a sword to fight with.

That is completely idiotic. The reason why the USA launched fatman and little boy in the first place was because the japanese didn't have anything with the same firepower. They were essentially completely defenseless.

Nowadays, that can no longer be the case.

All world powers today have nuclear weapons, so if one side decides to attack the other for whatever reason, he can expect serious retaliation.

The nuke was only used twice, and both of those times were to prevent even more people from dying on both sides than did in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. It also secured the world from being engulfed into another world war.

I don't even think you realize what has to be done o simply launch a nuke. You have to know the launch codes, which are in possession of the country's leader, not in the missile bases themselves. The president has to authorize the launch of nuclear weapons by tipping in the launch codes.

So how in the hell would terrorists be able to launch any nukes, aside from themselves creating them, which would be completely illogical, considering that there'd be no way in hell for them to get the resources, funds, or technology to even start at creating even one nuke.

[Razerath]

Taboo-XX wrote...

ARE YOU ****ING SERIOUS?

WHAT IFS?

YOU'RE GAMBLING WITH PEOPLE'S LIVES AND HAPPINESS.

All we get is "what ifs". What would you do in Shepards shoes? You'd probably choose the best "what if" choice. No matter which you choose, it's a "what if".

[sAxMoNkI]

Razerath wrote...

sAxMoNkI wrote...

Razerath wrote...

sAxMoNkI wrote...

Yeah and if I run and attack a bear what will happen to me? Oh I get killed...had I left the bear to its own devices I imagine it would not have done so. Quarians jabbed the geth bear with a stick.

Also to the bolded part: that's different to any other creature how exactly? If you are trying to say they would exterminate a race that attacked them however that is wrong. If that were true there would have been no Quarians left to escape Rannoch at the end of the morning war.

You're making my point. I am saying that this is all proof that currently in the ME Universe that Synthetics have a will to survive. Just because today the Geth haven't decided that organics are an eventual threat they could in the future. The premise of the game suggest that they will actually do that in the future.

...except for the fact that in every instance where the quarians have fled/ stopped attacking the geth have stopped and even offered help to their aggressors.

True, so far. As history will say in the ME Universe it is likely that they will rise up and just finally come to the idea that organics are simply always going to be a threat. Eventually they will Reap and if we're lucky they will stop and see the value of organics when they have taken away from them the means to be dangerous to the Geth.

My scenario is the geth will always continue the pattern I have just stated. My scenario is based off of observed data, yours is based on possibilities and assumptions. Mine is therefore more logical, end of.

Modifié par sAxMoNkI, 25 juin 2012 - 01:17 .

[Razerath]

The Angry One wrote...

Razerath wrote...

I'm finally going to say this.

What is wrong with my "what ifs"? This is a game we're talking about and there are nothing but "what ifs" really. Like I said earlier your opinion about this game is no more valid than mine in terms of how to see the ending.

What's wrong with your what ifs is that you're using them to justify the Catalyst butchering untold numbers of innocents.

And you're using "what ifs" to just let the cycle continue and do nothing because you think, "What if it is lying?" dooming the cycle.

[Sajuro]

Razerath wrote...

So if it was you in Shepards place what would you do in that instance? Anyone can answer this. I am sure, unless you're just joking, you will make one of the choices because the fourth choice is to just watch the fleets fall and then bleed out while the cycle continues.

I must admit I'd shoot the tubes, but I would argue with the Catalyst, try to find another way to end this.

[Razerath]

[quote]Sajuro wrote...

[quote]Razerath wrote...

[quote]sAxMoNkI wrote...

[quote]Razerath wrote...

[quote]AngryFrozenWater wrote...

[quote]Razerath wrote...

[quote]AngryFrozenWater wrote...

[quote]Razerath wrote...

[quote]AngryFrozenWater wrote...

[quote]Razerath wrote...

[quote]The Angry One wrote...

For the 10th freaking time. The Reapers. Claim. To stop. The problem.
According to them, they are not the problem. So how can they be an example of the problem?

How can you not see how ridiculous your stance of trusting what the Reapers claim while calling them liars is?[/quote]
They Reap. They kill. They do what no organic would want and they do it because in order to preserve life it has to be done. This is our shield against future potential AI's like the Reapers. In short, we're lucky that this Catalyst is around and not some other menacing AI bent on being dominate in the galaxy.

Of course the Catalyst would want all this to stop, if it could. Until the end of ME3 it couldn't stop and now it can. Trust/Mistrust is not an option when you have virtually nothing to lose anyway. But to be honest, I would trust the story the Catalyst is giving out. Why not? No choice given to Shepard had an option to kill more organics than the Reapers already were.[/quote]
It's not your shield. It's your grave. Make no mistake, if you prove to be valuable to harvest you first will be squashed to goo and pumped through tubes to the reaper reproduction machine. You will be killed in the most gruesome way before that pulp is being used. I don't think you will be very grateful when that happens to you, your loved ones, and everyone else of your race, unless you have their very same cyclical serial killer instict they have with no empathy, no remorse and no respect for life. These lives are being taken not to make them the savior of organic life, but to reproduce themselves and to stay on top of the food chain. Every other race they cannot use is just exterminated or kept alive until they prove to be valueable in the next cycle. The only way out is to get rid of them, because any other option condones their behavior and does not make sure they cannot do it again. The weak point in the destruction option is that the geth are once more the victim of idiocracy which forces Shepard to commit genocide.[/quote]
To those who have fallen in this game, it is not pointless. To all those trillions of souls, it is not pointless. What would be pointless is to let it happen forever. From the first Reaper cycle on organics have been trying to stop the Reapers and none of them could because none of them had learned the value of cohesion. In the lore it was said that countless cycles have tried to work on a solution to the Reapers, slowly that idea became more cohesive. Eventually it worked and Shepard is now left with a choice to make that if any cycle before could have managed they would have done as well.[/quote]
Of course it is pointless. And here is why:

It appears to me that the brat and the reapers cannot be as smart as they think they are when they exterminate organics to prevent the creation of synthetics who may or may not exterminate organics. Not only is this circular logic, it is also counterproductive to destroy what you claim to preserve.

While it is true that life will reboot somewhere else, it does exterminate the current races with the precision that only a state of the art race of serial killers can achieve. Much like serial killers the reapers have no empathy, no remorse and no respect for existing life. It also violates the right of self-determination, because they are self-proclaimed saviors of the galaxy which force "their help" onto the civilizations. There is nothing to save when the organics can do fine without them.

Another problem is that there are no indications that synthetics become hostile as predicted by the reapers, unless they are turned hostile by those very same reapers. That happened with both the geth and the zha'til. In other cases the geth defend themselves against genocide committed by the quarians, which sounds reasonable to me. The brat then points out that the synthetics are the problem, even though we can only see that the reapers have caused more harm than the synthetics ever inflicted.

So when the synthetics are nothing but a rationalization, all that remains is the motive the reapers have for their cyclical genocides: To reproduce themselves and to stay on top of the food chain. That's one we can see in-game and that's the one we have fought against ever since we met Saren and the heretics and the mystery of the reapers unfolded.[/quote]
We know that the Geth will fight to kill when they feel their race is threatened. There is your current proof. Half the problem I have with what you've written is assuming that the Reapers care about an individual life. They probably don't even see it that way. They likely view it as "Organic Life" and "Synthetic Life". And it's not circular logic if you know that one day, as the Starchild, an organic will make it's way to you with the wisdom of the Catalyst itself and make the right choice. The Catalyst can only theorize that Synthesis will be the perfect choice because with an organic to approve it would be an untested theory.

The Reapers also don't kill all life. They leave quite a bit around the galaxy. A lot of civilizations, plants, animals etc... We just don't see much comparison in the game since the games focus on the few advanced races almost alone.[/quote]
Proof? Please pay attention to what happens in-game. The heretics were turned hostile by the reapers and the geth were attacked by the quarians and thus they fight. They were either forced to fight or forced to defend themselves. If your country is being invaded then you fight with a reason: Freedom. The same goes for the geth.
[/quote]

Unless the Quarian fleet stops it's aggression the Geth would kill them. That's without Reaper influence and out of survival. We know they will defend their race by killing another.

[/quote]

Yeah and if I run and attack a bear what will happen to me? Oh I get killed...had I left the bear to its own devices I imagine it would not have done so. Quarians jabbed the geth bear with a stick.

Also to the bolded part: that's different to any other creature how exactly? If you are trying to say they would exterminate a race that attacked them however that is wrong. If that were true there would have been no Quarians left to escape Rannoch at the end of the morning war.

[/quote]

You're making my point. I am saying that this is all proof that currently in the ME Universe that Synthetics have a will to survive. Just because today the Geth haven't decided that organics are an eventual threat they could in the future. The premise of the game suggest that they will actually do that in the future.

[/quote]
So what, we kill them all now? There aren't nuclear weapons in Madagascar but one day there might be so we should just glass the entirety of Africa to make sure nothing like that happens.
Think about the Citadel AI from ME1, it came to the conclusion that all organics want to kill it because you know what, when it awoke its creator tried to kill it and that's why it wanted to be installed into a ship to kill all of the squishies.

[/quote]

No and like the AI from ME1 that would be an infantile response. One that has no experience to back it up.

[cavs25]

My neighbor has the possibility of being a robber.....so he is one....and will end up in jail.
"Some people's logic"

[Sajuro]

Razerath wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Razerath wrote...

I'm finally going to say this.

What is wrong with my "what ifs"? This is a game we're talking about and there are nothing but "what ifs" really. Like I said earlier your opinion about this game is no more valid than mine in terms of how to see the ending.

What's wrong with your what ifs is that you're using them to justify the Catalyst butchering untold numbers of innocents.

And you're using "what ifs" to just let the cycle continue and do nothing because you think, "What if it is lying?" dooming the cycle.

Are Reapers incapable of lying? was Sovereign just a special reaper when he said they had no end and no beginning?

[Razerath]

estebanus wrote...

Razerath wrote...

estebanus wrote...

Razerath wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Razerath wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Razerath wrote...

The Reapers could harvest all life forever. That means the threat is real. The technology exists in the universe to wipe organics out. How is that not the proof you claim isn't there? The fact that they haven't is just more proof that the Catalyst is not lying.

Wiping out organics on every world in every galaxy would be an impossible, futile and inefficient undertaking.

The technology exists to irradiate this planet several times over today. Does that mean we must be killed before we use it? Again, mere existence means nothing.

All organic life or some organic life. The Reapers deal in the whole galaxy, you're talking about one world's problems.

It's called scale. I'm giving an example. As far as we know at this moment in time, Earth is the only planet in the whole universe with life as we know it. We could blow it up tomorrow because of a border dispute.
The technology exists, therefore this is proof that it will happen. Your logic, not mine.

Proof that it will happen tomorrow or proof that someone will set off that bomb because... America already dropped a Nuke during war. I personally believe this world will end in fire, who knows when.

Nice. great.

And who would be the two sides fighting eachother? USA and China? USA and North Korea? Or possibly a reliving of the cold war, USA and Russia?

Think about how big the probabillity is of any of these outcomes to actually happen, considering that each one of those countries are totally dependent on each other.

The USA cannot live without China, and vice-versa.

The USA would nuke north Korea off the face of the Earth, considering how few nukes the koreans. 

There would literally be no reason for the USA and Russia to rekindle the flames of the cold war.

All I am saying is someone already for whatever reasons decided that a nuke was the answer. Could this happen again? Hell yes. Would it be worse now? Most likely. It doesn't mater who needs who, all it takes is the right person at the right time to make a very important decision.

Extremists and terrorists have a fetish for things like Nukes....why? Power, control and ultimately a sword to fight with.

That is completely idiotic. The reason why the USA launched fatman and little boy in the first place was because the japanese didn't have anything with the same firepower. They were essentially completely defenseless.

Nowadays, that can no longer be the case.

All world powers today have nuclear weapons, so if one side decides to attack the other for whatever reason, he can expect serious retaliation.

The nuke was only used twice, and both of those times were to prevent even more people from dying on both sides than did in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. It also secured the world from being engulfed into another world war.

I don't even think you realize what has to be done o simply launch a nuke. You have to know the launch codes, which are in possession of the country's leader, not in the missile bases themselves. The president has to authorize the launch of nuclear weapons by tipping in the launch codes.

So how in the hell would terrorists be able to launch any nukes, aside from themselves creating them, which would be completely illogical, considering that there'd be no way in hell for them to get the resources, funds, or technology to even start at creating even one nuke.

You're completely wrong and I would go into that with you but this is far from the original topic and I am already almost a page behind in responses. Not going to waste time off topic but a short answer for you is it might be easier to detonate a nuke or bio-weapon than you think and not just on the technical side but on the moral side too without regard to consequences or with regard.

[estebanus]

Razerath wrote...

estebanus wrote...

Razerath wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Razerath wrote...

Proof that it will happen tomorrow or proof that someone will set off that bomb because... America already dropped a Nuke during war.

That's not proof. That's probability. Again.
Probability does not justify anything. Or do you then follow that since America demonstrated the ability and willingness to use an atomic bomb, the entire continental United States must be carpet bombed for the greater good?

I personally believe this world will end in fire, who knows when.

Oh you're one of those. Should've guessed.

No, not that America should be carpet bombed but all NUKES should be destroyed along with any technology capable of wiping everyone out. This of course will likely never happen but that is my answer. And yes because it likely won't happen I really do feel like when the end of the world happens, it won't be when our Sun dies out. It will be when several maniacs press some buttons.

You think the decision of simply pressing a button is that simple. Do you really think that the decision to destroy the entire human race is something you do lightly?

The whole idea of nuclear deterrence is that one side won't launch its nuclear weapons in fear of retaliation, because in a nuclear war, there is no victor.

Also, if you've already learned the technology, you can't banish it from the world. If something has been discovered, it will never simply vanish.

Which is why I am sure, like to Krogan homeworld, we will nuke ourselves ( or the equivilant ) into oblivion.

How the hell can you even compare the krogan to us?

The krogan didn't hesitate one second to fire off their nukes, because theyall wanted to. Do you know how many times the world was at the brink of nuclear war?

Ever heard of the cuban missile crysis? Or maybe the Oslo incident?

The world was literally on the brink of nuclear annihilation, however they managed to reach a compromise at both times.

Maybe you should first understand the idea of nuclear deterrence before posting nonsensical crap like that..

If you know that by destroying an enemy coutry, you'll destroy your own one with it, would you do it?

No. You wouldn't. That's the entire idea of nuclear deterrence. No side would dare attacking the other knowing that they themselves would die doing so.

[Razerath]

Sajuro wrote...

Razerath wrote...

So if it was you in Shepards place what would you do in that instance? Anyone can answer this. I am sure, unless you're just joking, you will make one of the choices because the fourth choice is to just watch the fleets fall and then bleed out while the cycle continues.

I must admit I'd shoot the tubes, but I would argue with the Catalyst, try to find another way to end this.

Like what? You'd only get another suggestion from him which is why you claim to not make the first 3 choices.

[The Angry One]

Razerath wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Razerath wrote...

I'm finally going to say this.

What is wrong with my "what ifs"? This is a game we're talking about and there are nothing but "what ifs" really. Like I said earlier your opinion about this game is no more valid than mine in terms of how to see the ending.

What's wrong with your what ifs is that you're using them to justify the Catalyst butchering untold numbers of innocents.

And you're using "what ifs" to just let the cycle continue and do nothing because you think, "What if it is lying?" dooming the cycle.

You're just assuming the cycle will continue without the Reapers or their influence despite the fact that they cause the cycle.

I am not relying on what ifs to do anything. I am saying, I will not murder billions for what might happen.

[Sajuro]

Razerath wrote...

No and like the AI from ME1 that would be an infantile response. One that has no experience to back it up.

It was a response made because the only organic it knew tried to destroy it because of the mentality that AIs will kill their owners. Why did the Quarians attack the geth in the first place? Because they were afraid of the Geth rising up if they didn't when all the Geth were doing were asking if they had a soul.
Synthetics wanting to wipe out organics is a self fullfilling prophecy, that doesn't mean the Catalyst is right.

[Ticonderoga117]

Razerath wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

Razerath wrote...

So if it was you in Shepards place what would you do in that instance? Anyone can answer this. I am sure, unless you're just joking, you will make one of the choices because the fourth choice is to just watch the fleets fall and then bleed out while the cycle continues.

I must admit I'd shoot the tubes, but I would argue with the Catalyst, try to find another way to end this.

Like what? You'd only get another suggestion from him which is why you claim to not make the first 3 choices.

"Take yourself and your Reapers, and fly into the furthest star from Sol. F*** you and f*** your bull**** choices. You sir are an internal contradiction and a murderer of untold billions."

Modifié par Ticonderoga117, 25 juin 2012 - 01:25 .

[The Angry One]

Razerath wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

Razerath wrote...

So if it was you in Shepards place what would you do in that instance? Anyone can answer this. I am sure, unless you're just joking, you will make one of the choices because the fourth choice is to just watch the fleets fall and then bleed out while the cycle continues.

I must admit I'd shoot the tubes, but I would argue with the Catalyst, try to find another way to end this.

Like what? You'd only get another suggestion from him which is why you claim to not make the first 3 choices.

How about dreadnought strike the damn Presidium tower? Kill the Catalyst. Cut off the head of the snake.
There's an option right there.

[AngryFrozenWater]

I think it is acceptable to opt for control when I play a renegade Shepard who thinks TIM is right. I think it is acceptable to opt for synthesis when I play an elitist Shepard, much like Saren, who thinks it is OK to violate the right of self-determination and who thinks it is just fine to mutate racial identities and who feels doing so will save lives. I think it is OK to opt for destruction and commit genocide against the geth. However, if you do not like those borderline war-crime-like consequences attributed to you then something is very wrong.

[Razerath]

sAxMoNkI wrote...

Razerath wrote...

sAxMoNkI wrote...

Razerath wrote...

sAxMoNkI wrote...

Yeah and if I run and attack a bear what will happen to me? Oh I get killed...had I left the bear to its own devices I imagine it would not have done so. Quarians jabbed the geth bear with a stick.

Also to the bolded part: that's different to any other creature how exactly? If you are trying to say they would exterminate a race that attacked them however that is wrong. If that were true there would have been no Quarians left to escape Rannoch at the end of the morning war.

You're making my point. I am saying that this is all proof that currently in the ME Universe that Synthetics have a will to survive. Just because today the Geth haven't decided that organics are an eventual threat they could in the future. The premise of the game suggest that they will actually do that in the future.

...except for the fact that in every instance where the quarians have fled/ stopped attacking the geth have stopped and even offered help to their aggressors.

True, so far. As history will say in the ME Universe it is likely that they will rise up and just finally come to the idea that organics are simply always going to be a threat. Eventually they will Reap and if we're lucky they will stop and see the value of organics when they have taken away from them the means to be dangerous to the Geth.

My scenario is the geth will always continue the pattern I have just stated. My scenario is based off of observed data, yours is based on possibilities and assumptions. Mine is therefore more logical, end of.

OK lol yours is more logical. I'll just concede to you because it's obvious that this argument with you is about you proving that you're right. That is not in line with the original topic ideas. I could simply argue that I am gathering my "data" based on things like... the Reapers existence. The rogue AI in ME1, the fact that Geth will fight back. Both of us are basing our opinions off assumptions. I see the Reapers say that in the past Synthetics will try and wipe out organics. You see that the Geth haven't, yet.

Doesn't matter. You win. I concede.

[Sajuro]

Razerath wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

Razerath wrote...

So if it was you in Shepards place what would you do in that instance? Anyone can answer this. I am sure, unless you're just joking, you will make one of the choices because the fourth choice is to just watch the fleets fall and then bleed out while the cycle continues.

I must admit I'd shoot the tubes, but I would argue with the Catalyst, try to find another way to end this.

Like what? You'd only get another suggestion from him which is why you claim to not make the first 3 choices.

Figure out how the crucible would let me control the Reapers, if it is a feedback system, blow up the crucible to shock all of the Reapers like Sov and finish them like that.