390 réponses à ce sujet

[Razerath]

The Angry One wrote...

Razerath wrote...

No because there is no proof. If you were the person who killed 10 million and could prove it that would be another story. I would then suicide.

Okay, so you would demand proof..... except if I was the one who did it?
Being.. the murderer.. makes me more credible?

We now go live the the planet Vulcan where we present this concentrated anti-logic to the Vulcans and see the effects.

www.youtube.com/watch

Oh dear.

No the proof would have to be ( since this is the past ) that I would go into the future unable to just kill the guy about to prove it all and watch it happen. I would have to know it was not an illusion.

With that said, the Reapers are proof enough that something needs to be done. With your example, Shepard would be the one to suicide for the greater good. He knows that this will continue until he stops it for good. So he does anything he can do to stop it. This is why I believe Synthesis is the best option given that in the other two, history can repeat itself. Might as well go with the option that at least excludes the threat of AI's forever killing organic life.

[Ticonderoga117]

capitaine66 wrote...

The only thing we can be sure of, it's that blasto anyone would have done a far better job than shepard

Fixed. It reminds me of the move Battleship.

Hey! Our commanding officer got fragged. What are we going to do?!
Sailor 1: Follow Lt. JerkWad!
Sailor 2: Follow Lt. JerkWad!
Sailor 3: Follow Lt. JerkWad!
Sailor 4: Follow Lt. JerkWad!
Me: Anyone else for the love of GOD! His tactics is as bad as Shepards! Anyone with a brain is better than that guy!

[The Angry One]

Razerath wrote...

No the proof would have to be ( since this is the past ) that I would go into the future unable to just kill the guy about to prove it all and watch it happen. I would have to know it was not an illusion.

With that said, the Reapers are proof enough that something needs to be done. With your example, Shepard would be the one to suicide for the greater good. He knows that this will continue until he stops it for good. So he does anything he can do to stop it. This is why I believe Synthesis is the best option given that in the other two, history can repeat itself. Might as well go with the option that at least excludes the threat of AI's forever killing organic life.

No, with my example I am asking you to sacrifice yourself for the greater good with no evidence.
The Reapers are not evidence. The fact that you continue to call them an example of this when the Catalyst itself directly says otherwise means YOU DON'T BELIEVE THEM.

Your argument is completely contradictory. You have no proof. Therefore you are acting completely on faith.

[Jonathan Shepard]

Razerath wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Razerath wrote...

No because there is no proof. If you were the person who killed 10 million and could prove it that would be another story. I would then suicide.

Okay, so you would demand proof..... except if I was the one who did it?
Being.. the murderer.. makes me more credible?

We now go live the the planet Vulcan where we present this concentrated anti-logic to the Vulcans and see the effects.

www.youtube.com/watch

Oh dear.

No the proof would have to be ( since this is the past ) that I would go into the future unable to just kill the guy about to prove it all and watch it happen. I would have to know it was not an illusion.

With that said, the Reapers are proof enough that something needs to be done. With your example, Shepard would be the one to suicide for the greater good. He knows that this will continue until he stops it for good. So he does anything he can do to stop it. This is why I believe Synthesis is the best option given that in the other two, history can repeat itself. Might as well go with the option that at least excludes the threat of AI's forever killing organic life.

Maybe the Reapers do stop wiping out organics. MAYBE. But what stops the Synthesized races from making purely machine races again? What stops them from killing each other in regular wars again anyway?

[Razerath]

Jonathan Shepard wrote...

Razerath wrote...

No because there is no proof. If you were the person who killed 10 million and could prove it that would be another story. I would then suicide.

To everyone - I am not abandoning this at all. I feel like what the Starchild said and what he is is proof enough to take one of the three actions. You all don't think that is true and that is OK. Like I said before you don't understand the way I see the end.

This is the point we're trying to make! There's no proof to believe what the Catalyst says! In fact, the Geth making peace with the Quarians (if you encouage it) is proof that the Catalyst is wrong! So why doesn't Shepard bring this up? Because he /becomes weak minded and submits to the Reapers without questioning them./ There is no proof in his words that what he said is true. No evidence! His words are NOT enough!

The Geth are computers compared to the Reapers. Arguing that Geth are as sentient as Reapers is a joke. There is no proof to disbelieve what the Catalyst says either and when you weigh both of those choices ( believe or not ) you have to consider facts.

Fact 1: Reapers exist and are exactly what you are trying to stop.

Fact 2: You find that the Reapers even though representative of what is horrible are the only shield organics have against other past or future AI's bent on killing all organics for good.

We didn't get the Matrix, we didn't get the Terminator. We got salvation through destruction. An AI who for some reason found it important to preserve organic life. I like to believe that reason is altruistic and along the lines of how the Geth want peace and not simply because they need Biofuel to keep running like in the Matrix.

[DirtySHISN0]

Jonathan Shepard wrote...
the Geth making peace with the Quarians (if you encouage it) is proof that the Catalyst is wrong!

Why is it inconcievable that future contains possibilities. Sustained peace is never guaranteed.

So why doesn't Shepard bring this up? Because he /becomes weak minded and submits to the Reapers without questioning them./ There is no proof in his words that what he said is true. No evidence! His words are NOT enough!

Because the ending is poorly written and in its current state contains very little sense No matter what colour it is.

[Razerath]

The Angry One wrote...

Razerath wrote...

No the proof would have to be ( since this is the past ) that I would go into the future unable to just kill the guy about to prove it all and watch it happen. I would have to know it was not an illusion.

With that said, the Reapers are proof enough that something needs to be done. With your example, Shepard would be the one to suicide for the greater good. He knows that this will continue until he stops it for good. So he does anything he can do to stop it. This is why I believe Synthesis is the best option given that in the other two, history can repeat itself. Might as well go with the option that at least excludes the threat of AI's forever killing organic life.

No, with my example I am asking you to sacrifice yourself for the greater good with no evidence.
The Reapers are not evidence. The fact that you continue to call them an example of this when the Catalyst itself directly says otherwise means YOU DON'T BELIEVE THEM.

Your argument is completely contradictory. You have no proof. Therefore you are acting completely on faith.

The Reapers ARE evidence. We cannot agree on that and that means I can't answer your question properly. Of course my answer would be, "No, not without any sort of proof I can make any sensical decision on despite maybe being manipulated."

And yes, Faith. It took Shepard a metric ****-ton of faith to do what he did. Is there something wrong with that notion? Just because there isn't a clear answer doesn't mean there isn't a clear choice. Sometimes you have to act instead of question. I bet Shepard save hundreds of thousands of lives by acting instead of arguing with Starchild or being some, "I need everything explained before I make a choice I feel is right" moron.

[jpraelster93]

why is this troll topic not closed

[The Angry One]

For the 10th freaking time. The Reapers. Claim. To stop. The problem.
According to them, they are not the problem. So how can they be an example of the problem?

How can you not see how ridiculous your stance of trusting what the Reapers claim while calling them liars is?

[The Angry One]

Razerath wrote...

The Reapers ARE evidence. We cannot agree on that and that means I can't answer your question properly. Of course my answer would be, "No, not without any sort of proof I can make any sensical decision on despite maybe being manipulated."

And yes, Faith. It took Shepard a metric ****-ton of faith to do what he did. Is there something wrong with that notion? Just because there isn't a clear answer doesn't mean there isn't a clear choice. Sometimes you have to act instead of question. I bet Shepard save hundreds of thousands of lives by acting instead of arguing with Starchild or being some, "I need everything explained before I make a choice I feel is right" moron.

Then in my hypothetical, why did you demand proof? Hm?

[Razerath]

Jonathan Shepard wrote...

Razerath wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Razerath wrote...

No because there is no proof. If you were the person who killed 10 million and could prove it that would be another story. I would then suicide.

Okay, so you would demand proof..... except if I was the one who did it?
Being.. the murderer.. makes me more credible?

We now go live the the planet Vulcan where we present this concentrated anti-logic to the Vulcans and see the effects.

www.youtube.com/watch

Oh dear.

No the proof would have to be ( since this is the past ) that I would go into the future unable to just kill the guy about to prove it all and watch it happen. I would have to know it was not an illusion.

With that said, the Reapers are proof enough that something needs to be done. With your example, Shepard would be the one to suicide for the greater good. He knows that this will continue until he stops it for good. So he does anything he can do to stop it. This is why I believe Synthesis is the best option given that in the other two, history can repeat itself. Might as well go with the option that at least excludes the threat of AI's forever killing organic life.

Maybe the Reapers do stop wiping out organics. MAYBE. But what stops the Synthesized races from making purely machine races again? What stops them from killing each other in regular wars again anyway?

What is to stop them from doing that? There is no answer to that. It can be speculated that since Synthesis is the apex of evolution organics wouldn't have a need for anything synthetic anymore to make up for organic faults like slow thinking by comparison.

I'm not saying Synthesis would make peace but it would stop the cycles-long genocide of organics only and it would certainly mean that the existence of what used to be organics, evolved now, would be stable nearly untilt he end of the universe.

[Razerath]

jpraelster93 wrote...

why is this troll topic not closed

You're the only one trolling this topic. Just because I don't agree with you and you don't agree with me doesn't make me a troll and you freaking know it.

Back off, it would be closed already if you were right. I am actually trying to debate the finer points of the end and express my opinion to others who may or may not share in my opinions. It's also very interesting to read why/how people rationalized the ending. I just hate that people are getting upset so much, it's starting to upset me a little.

[The Angry One]

There is no such thing as an apex of evolution. Great job failing biology as well as.. well, everything else in this topic.

[Razerath]

The Angry One wrote...

Razerath wrote...

The Reapers ARE evidence. We cannot agree on that and that means I can't answer your question properly. Of course my answer would be, "No, not without any sort of proof I can make any sensical decision on despite maybe being manipulated."

And yes, Faith. It took Shepard a metric ****-ton of faith to do what he did. Is there something wrong with that notion? Just because there isn't a clear answer doesn't mean there isn't a clear choice. Sometimes you have to act instead of question. I bet Shepard save hundreds of thousands of lives by acting instead of arguing with Starchild or being some, "I need everything explained before I make a choice I feel is right" moron.

Then in my hypothetical, why did you demand proof? Hm?

Because someone says something about the future is a far cry different than the Reapers being on your world killing everything. One could be BS, the other is not at all BS because it's happening. The whole idea that you're trying to trap my argument with a more flawed one is terrible. Stop, please. My whole argument is that the Reapers are here now, we have to do something. The rest of the debate in this topic is about what to do and why. Don't derail this with some moral mush, this is supposed to be about the game.

[Razerath]

The Angry One wrote...

There is no such thing as an apex of evolution. Great job failing biology as well as.. well, everything else in this topic.

This is science fiction. You don't understand at all that this is about a game and not real life.

[The Angry One]

Razerath wrote...

Because someone says something about the future is a far cry different than the Reapers being on your world killing everything. One could be BS, the other is not at all BS because it's happening. The whole idea that you're trying to trap my argument with a more flawed one is terrible. Stop, please. My whole argument is that the Reapers are here now, we have to do something. The rest of the debate in this topic is about what to do and why. Don't derail this with some moral mush, this is supposed to be about the game.

Yes, we have to do something. As in, defeat them. Not obey them.
The Reapers are here, now. The Reapers are the problem. Why are you believing what they say?

Razerath wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

There
is no such thing as an apex of evolution. Great job failing biology as
well as.. well, everything else in this topic.

This is science fiction. You don't understand at all that this is about a game and not real life.

Versimilitude. Look it up.

Modifié par The Angry One, 24 juin 2012 - 11:31 .

[Jonathan Shepard]

This is becoming hysterically redundant.

The Geth are computers compared to the Reapers. Arguing that Geth are as sentient as Reapers is a joke.

Never said "as" intelligent. Simply that they are intelligent, and are the only synthetic race other than the Reapers seen in the games; they are the only evidence the player has, and the player can cause them to destroy their creators OR make peace.
The Catalyst only claims one of those outcomes can happen, and that killing organics with other synthetics is his solution. The fact that both scenarios with the geth are in-game proves that his evaluation is wrong in the cases where the player wants it to be-- but even then, the player cannot present that to contradict the Catalyst's logic.

Modifié par Jonathan Shepard, 24 juin 2012 - 11:32 .

[Razerath]

The Angry One wrote...

For the 10th freaking time. The Reapers. Claim. To stop. The problem.
According to them, they are not the problem. So how can they be an example of the problem?

How can you not see how ridiculous your stance of trusting what the Reapers claim while calling them liars is?

They Reap. They kill. They do what no organic would want and they do it because in order to preserve life it has to be done. This is our shield against future potential AI's like the Reapers. In short, we're lucky that this Catalyst is around and not some other menacing AI bent on being dominate in the galaxy.

Of course the Catalyst would want all this to stop, if it could. Until the end of ME3 it couldn't stop and now it can. Trust/Mistrust is not an option when you have virtually nothing to lose anyway. But to be honest, I would trust the story the Catalyst is giving out. Why not? No choice given to Shepard had an option to kill more organics than the Reapers already were.

[jpraelster93]

Anyone who trust the catalyst just wow im sorry

[Razerath]

jpraelster93 wrote...

Anyone who trust the catalyst just wow im sorry

Anyone who can't see both options from a detached point of view, wow.

[Jonathan Shepard]

Razerath wrote...

jpraelster93 wrote...

Anyone who trust the catalyst just wow im sorry

Anyone who can't see both options from a detached point of view, wow.

And you can't see that doing what the Starbrat thinks should be done is in fact submitting to the Reapers. I'm done with this topic; the redudant logical fallacies are simply ridiculous. 

Modifié par Jonathan Shepard, 24 juin 2012 - 11:36 .

[Razerath]

Jonathan Shepard wrote...

This is becoming hysterically redundant.

The Geth are computers compared to the Reapers. Arguing that Geth are as sentient as Reapers is a joke.

Never said "as" intelligent. Simply that they are intelligent, and are the only synthetic race other than the Reapers seen in the games; they are the only evidence the player has, and the player can cause them to destroy their creators OR make peace.
The Catalyst only claims one of those outcomes can happen, and that killing organics with other synthetics is his solution. The fact that both scenarios with the geth are in-game proves that his evaluation is wrong in the cases where the player wants it to be-- but even then, the player cannot present that to contradict the Catalyst's logic.

Reapers don't just kill organics. They kill civilizations nearing capabilities of creating something that could destroy the Reapers.... because.... if that happened all organic life would be wiped out.

The Catalyst says this and it's only a small leap to assume that it says this because it's something that has almost happened or maybe at one point right before killing the last of the organics ( long long time ago ) the Catalyst realized that instead of killing all organics to preserve it's own life that someday, given a plan, everything can live together. I mean the technology exists to synthesize organics and synthetics. I'm pretty sure that it was Starchild who made that technology and why would it do that?

[The Angry One]

Razerath wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

For the 10th freaking time. The Reapers. Claim. To stop. The problem.
According to them, they are not the problem. So how can they be an example of the problem?

How can you not see how ridiculous your stance of trusting what the Reapers claim while calling them liars is?

They Reap. They kill. They do what no organic would want and they do it because in order to preserve life it has to be done. This is our shield against future potential AI's like the Reapers. In short, we're lucky that this Catalyst is around and not some other menacing AI bent on being dominate in the galaxy.

Where is your proof?

Of course the Catalyst would want all this to stop, if it could. Until the end of ME3 it couldn't stop and now it can. Trust/Mistrust is not an option when you have virtually nothing to lose anyway. But to be honest, I would trust the story the Catalyst is giving out. Why not? No choice given to Shepard had an option to kill more organics than the Reapers already were.

WHERE. IS. YOUR. PROOF.

All I see is assumptions. You choose to believe the Reapers because the Reapers exist.
This is logic so circular it makes me dizzy.

[Razerath]

Jonathan Shepard wrote...

Razerath wrote...

jpraelster93 wrote...

Anyone who trust the catalyst just wow im sorry

Anyone who can't see both options from a detached point of view, wow.

And you can't see that doing what the Starbrat thinks should be done is in fact submitting to the Reapers. I'm done with this topic; the redudant logical fallacies are simply ridiculous. 

In a way, it is submission but my argument is that Starchild wants exactly what Shepard wants. To stop, forever, the war between organics and synthetics.

If organics killed all synthetics, nothing is really wrong but if synthetics kill all organics the entire universe will be dormant and even I would argue that eventually the Reapers would fall into disrepair and "die" or live in a hybernated state until the end of the universes potential energy.

[Razerath]

The Angry One wrote...

Razerath wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

For the 10th freaking time. The Reapers. Claim. To stop. The problem.
According to them, they are not the problem. So how can they be an example of the problem?

How can you not see how ridiculous your stance of trusting what the Reapers claim while calling them liars is?

They Reap. They kill. They do what no organic would want and they do it because in order to preserve life it has to be done. This is our shield against future potential AI's like the Reapers. In short, we're lucky that this Catalyst is around and not some other menacing AI bent on being dominate in the galaxy.

Where is your proof?

Of course the Catalyst would want all this to stop, if it could. Until the end of ME3 it couldn't stop and now it can. Trust/Mistrust is not an option when you have virtually nothing to lose anyway. But to be honest, I would trust the story the Catalyst is giving out. Why not? No choice given to Shepard had an option to kill more organics than the Reapers already were.

WHERE. IS. YOUR. PROOF.

All I see is assumptions. You choose to believe the Reapers because the Reapers exist.
This is logic so circular it makes me dizzy.

If I were you I would either stop trying to understand what I am saying or just discount my opinions completely. You're going to have a heart attack about this.

I don't have proof, neither do you. The point is that we all still have to act without proof and make the best decision possible for the future. I feel like the evidence of the Reapers suggest a little more "proof" then just calling the Starchild a liar, like a child and stomping off to do nothing and letting the cycle continue.

Did you miss the part in the end where the Starchild just lets you destroy them, if you want? The trials and tribulations Shepard went through are more than anyone else, the evidence of that is when he becomes the first organic given the choices by Starchild.

Starchild gives these choices to Shepard because it believes Shepard has the will and wisdom to decide for all organics their fate.

EDIT: This is also why I don't believe Shepard was indoctrinated, ever.

Modifié par Razerath, 24 juin 2012 - 11:45 .