348 réponses à ce sujet

[quadvirgo]

For me, they were all pretty bad party members until I started using the No Follower Auto Level and Respec mods. In all of their cases (with the odd exception of Dog), their stats & skills didn't compliment my playstyle at all.

When I first started playing, I hated Alistair. I thought he was a horrible tank. But after playing Shale, I decided that I preferred Alistair for his banter. After the mods, Alistair became an amazing tank.

Morrigan's Shapeshifting is useless. Only the respec mod saved her from perma-Camp.

I'm honestly not impressed with the Assassin skill tree, so Zevran has always taken a back seat to Leliana, which is interesting, because when I first read the Bard skills, I wasn't convinced it was worthwhile.

However, those Bard skills are truly amazing. This could just be my playstyle, though. I'm not much for setting up strategic battles by stealthing, setting traps, maneuvering behind enemies, and attempting backstabs. I'm more of a "rush in, kill stuff" kinda player. So the Bard, Ranger, and Duelist trees work better for me.

Wynne has been amazing, but I had to initally spec her out of some of her starting skills and take her full healing / crowd-control. I can't remember what she had initially, I just remember thinking, "Why on Earth do you have that skill as a healer?"

I can honestly say, I have no idea what Oghren begins with, because I started using the listed mods before I added him to my party, so he's always been a stat/skill duplicate of Alistair (shield tank)

My least used party members these days are Dog & Sten, closely followed by Shale.

Dog suffers the same fate as Shale, he just doesn't have enough diverse skillsets to bring enough to the group to justify a spot on a 4-person team. Don't get me wrong, I love his Dread Howl stun and Overwhelm -- he's the perfect go-to dog for ranged enemies.

I've also been playing on Easy & Normal mode, so pershaps in Nightmare, Shale's stuns will be more useful.

Sten was useless to me the moment I found him. My first warrior was a 2-handed weapon user, so I already knew how utterly horrible the specialization was. Only the respec mod made him the least bit desireable, and even then, if & only if I spec'd him to dual-wield. However, after all of those changes, his constant disapproval of all-things quest-related meant that he was forever guarding Camp for me.

To make a long story short: Sten.

Modifié par quadvirgo, 14 décembre 2009 - 09:58 .

[wahaw]

i have never had zevran sten or ogrehn fight with me.... ever... except when i had to have ogrehn around for the anvil part....



the dog is actually pretty good contrary to popular belief... his stun all talent is amazing especially when you're a rogue and you get auto backstabs when people are stunned =)

[casadechrisso]

the dog is actually pretty good contrary to popular belief... his stun all talent is amazing especially when you're a rogue and you get auto backstabs when people are stunned =)

I agree, Dog is the rogue's best friend. He also never complains or whines like the other tanks (*cough* Alistair *cough*), so even more useful.

[Kelston]

Zenon wrote...

Would be interesting to know what kind of characters you would enjoy more? Apart from being more round in terms of change of personality I mean. Ok some characters can be associated with a certain set of stereotypes. Then again which character in any story/movie is completely free from that? Also I'd say the way a player sees or even is annoyed by a felt stereotype being represented by a character sais more about the player than the NPC.

I think one of the major problems with DA:O characters is that in attempting to avoid the stereotypes, the characters ended up flat. The fantasy story stereotypes are there for a reason. It gives a basic level of character depth and a basic motivation for the character. Sure, sometimes it is painfully predictable but the stereotypes are closer to reality and "people" than the attempt at no stereotype.

I'll take Morrigan and Leliana as examples. It was obvious BioWare wanted to avoid the whole here is the "kekeke innocent girl that you're supposed to like" and here is there "firebreathin **** badass dominatrix girl that you're not supposed to like but secretly do anyway". In Morrigan they took Aerie and Viconia and smashed them together in an attempt to create a deeper, more interesting character. Instead, you have a character that is never resolved. Maybe this is an attempt to lay groundwork for Dragon Age 2, but it results in a character that is unsatisfying. They tried to make Morrigan this girl that grew up in isolation so is "innocent" while not being "innocent".

If you go back and read the developer comments about Baldur's Gate 2, you'll note that Aerie was the character that drew the strongest reaction from the players even though she was a blatant "innocent damsel in distress" character. And that's that made her a character I remembered, and a character I liked. Instead of trying to avoid the stereotype, they just went for it and did it wonderfully. A character that draws as strong a reaction from the playerbase (people either loved her or hated her, there was no indifference) as Aerie despite the stereotype is a character that displays masterful writing and character depth. They took a stereotypical character and made you remember her.

Everyone remembers Minsc and Boo 11 years later (first appearance Baldur's Gate 1). Can you say you'll remember Zevran or Sten or Ohgren 11 years from now? We're all still able to shout "butt kickin' for goodness!" with passion. Can you recall a Zevran quote? I can't. And I last played the game less than a month ago. I last played Baldur's Gate 2 probably a good 8 years ago.

That's the sort of characters I liked and enjoyed and would love to see again.

Go for the eyes, Boo.

Modifié par Kelston, 14 décembre 2009 - 10:17 .

[Zenon]

KariTR wrote...

Shale doesnt even get to camp, as someone else commented (*SPOILER!!!*) has no RP place in the world and stays in Hornleath (?) for my games.

Not true. Dwarves used golems for centuries. I also think it is good, that Bioware included some more unique characters with special sets of skills instead of only making stock-characters. Apart from that it is your choice who you bring along in your party.

PLEASE REMOVE YOUR SPOILER!!!

[casadechrisso]

Templar Vilmon wrote...

Am I the only one who finds Leliana useless besides her lockpicking skills? If I need range, I'm going Morrigan. If I want close combat rogue skills, it's Zevran. Is there some key skill that Leliana has that I'm missing?

At least in my games Leliana survives, Zevran not. Leliana does more damage too, and last but not least the bard's skills are more useful than the assassin's. I'm very pleased with Leli as a melee rogue, she's definitely my favourite sidekick. Never needed her for locks, I do that myself.

[Zenon]

Kelston wrote...

I think one of the major problems with DA:O characters is that in attempting to avoid the stereotypes, the characters ended up flat. The fantasy story stereotypes are there for a reason. It gives a basic level of character depth and a basic motivation for the character. Sure, sometimes it is painfully predictable but the stereotypes are closer to reality and "people" than the attempt at no stereotype.
[..]

I abbreviated your quote for readability, but refer to it as a whole. Perhaps it is a matter of taste. Of course it makes it easier for the player to judge a NPC, which offers a personality according to a certain famous stereotype. Perhaps it makes it easier to remember such a character, than a mixed personality. Then again a character with a personality entirely geared according to a certain stereotype is in fact a very extreme kind of personality. From an artistic sense I'd say -- in my opinion -- this makes only sense either as a parody of such kind of character, or if the character undergoes a radical change through a plot event or character interaction.

From my experience and view it is more realistic, if a character can't immediately be put in a certain drawer. Then there is more to discover. Many people have quite a mix of motives and goals. That makes a character more ambiguous and harder to understand. From my game experience this break in tradition to have left the path of including certain (standard) stereotype characters in the game makes DA:O innovative and more mature than the regular kind of typical fantasy game. I think this feeling of things appearing/being different, than they "should" be comes from decades of D&D type of fantasy dominating this genre.

On Shale: There are some traits, that make Shale more memorable than other characters in the game. There is probably a stronger story behind Shale than most of the other characters. It's innovative, since I never had a golem before in my group. Even while Shale first appears to have quite a few similarities with the infamous HK-47, there are more subtle differences giving Shale more of a soul. I'd say innovation, uniqueness, well rounded character, change in attitude during game make her a more memorable character than with most other NPCs.

Modifié par Zenon, 14 décembre 2009 - 10:50 .

[Must have name]

In terms of usefulness:



-Wynne / Morrigan are the most useful. They're mages! Wynne has a better specialisation, but she'll have more useless skills when you pick her up than Morrigan does.

-I'd then have to say Leliana, Zevran, Shale and Alistair. Leliana is a nicely rounded character, brings Bard buffs and ok Ranged DPS. Zevran has an annoying build in places, but he's salvageable into a powerful Dual-Wielder. Shale's a great tank from the moment you get him, and Alistair can be made into a good tank aswell, and he has the advantage of being able to equip more gear.

-Sten / Ogrhen are the most useless. 2Hers arn't good, and to make them good you need to really have Haste somewhere in your party and do nothing but pump strength. Sten atm also only gets one Specialisation, and Oghren is generally gotten so late his skillset is already picked (not that it really matters too much with his skill-choices).

-I'm really unsure where Dog fits into this. I've not really used him to a great deal. As far as I can make out, he's alright, he just gets poor endgame because of his lack of gear.

[Arcaia]

Funny. I found Leliana to be positively useless. Her archery abilities take so long to use, have very little effect, and deal next to no damage, and her bard skills eat too much stamina. Sten was annoying to use to begin with, but towards the end of the game I found both him and Ogren to be useful as they dished out the damage my main character couldn't (playing a shield warrior). though I'll admit that their swing speed is real slow and incredibly annoying when they start missing. Morrigan and Wynne were the core of the team, those hexes and glyphs were incredibly useful (the only problem with Wynne was that she ran out of mana pretty quickly, having to use all that healing magic, and the electricity line I chose for Morrigan was pretty useless beyond moderately high damage - should have taken the cold line). Didn't really bother that much with Zevran. The dog is PERFECT for killing mages (it only takes one Overwhelm to kill a mage, and he is absolutely perfect for rushing)

Modifié par Arcaia, 14 décembre 2009 - 11:45 .

[TileToad]

Sten. He may look impressive but he's is pretty useless in battles. I didn't even take him with me on my latest playthrough. In fact, I'm inclined to say that all two-hander characters are fairly useless when it comes to fighting. Too slow and too little damage per strike.
My DW dwarf kicks some serious ass on the other hand.

As for interesting banter between so and so.. Banter doesn't win me any battles.

[-Warped-]

Sten is a beast if built right, far from useless and majorly good in most boss battles.



Leliana I found not worth using as an archer. Respec her to dual wielding and she's great.

[Dieover]

Templar Vilmon wrote...

Am I the only one who finds Leliana useless besides her lockpicking skills? If I need range, I'm going Morrigan. If I want close combat rogue skills, it's Zevran. Is there some key skill that Leliana has that I'm missing?

French accent, sex , background sadisticall killing history and of course lots of crits : O

So far I miss my War Dog, i don't take him alone because he doesn't have much story behind em and most importantly I'm a big fan of Stealth.

Sten is awesome when it come to personality (less talk, more action) but like other said, i hate to see "miss miss and big hit"

[Must have name]

With Leliana, you just have to take care to build her right:



-Grab Lethality ASAP

-Get Dex high enough to grab Arrow of Slaying. You don't need anymore.

-Pump cunning.

-Grab Marjolaine's Recurve. Before that, grab Falon'dins reach.

-Get Combat stealth, it's a travesty she starts with no Stealth skills.

-Song of Courage

-Max her relations with you for more Cunning bonuses



If you do that, she can constantly hit 40-50s midgame, aswell as giving your entire party a massive buff. That, and she serves as a lockpicker, a pickpocket, and a scout. Arrow of slaying is a great way to start a fight, and she's great at pulling as she can follow up with Stealth. You can also grab Ranger as her second specialisation, which adds yet more decent damage. Yes, her damage is inferior to some other party members, but Song of Courage is immense, and she has a ton of utility. [It's just a shame that I absolutely hate her character...]

[kevinwastaken]

Morrigan is useful when you spec her as Spirit Healer. Well she's useful anyway with the right spells, but a damage dealing healer is invaluable to the party that doesn't want to work very hard.



Sten is useless. Shale, Alistair, and Oghren all do his job better and provide far more enjoyment than that sad lump of gray.

[Dieover]

^ sound like a nice build and motivate, but why you hate Leliana? I'm curious : D

are you into male character? hehe

Modifié par Dieover, 14 décembre 2009 - 12:25 .

[Lord Phoebus]

I'd have to say dog. He has overwhelm going for him, but he can't take a pounding and he doesn't have enough abilities. Followed by Sten, only one spec and a second two-hander warrior.



I don't why people are complaining about Morrigan, she's almost perfectly set up for DPS and CC. She can pick up Sleep/Waking Nightmare and CoC very fast, giving her some decent CC, then go for Blizzard, Tempest, Mana Clash (which through Spell Might opens SotC). Somewhere in there give her affliction hex (you can fill up the rest at the end). Spec her as a blood mage and you have an almost perfect DPS mage. Seriously if I'm not playing a mage she sets ups or kills 90% of the enemies.

[Kelston]

Zenon wrote...

From my experience and view it is more realistic, if a character can't immediately be put in a certain drawer. Then there is more to discover. Many people have quite a mix of motives and goals. That makes a character more ambiguous and harder to understand. From my game experience this break in tradition to have left the path of including certain (standard) stereotype characters in the game makes DA:O innovative and more mature than the regular kind of typical fantasy game. I think this feeling of things appearing/being different, than they "should" be comes from decades of D&D type of fantasy dominating this genre.

-snipped-

The problem I found with DA:O is exactly what you said. A mixed character leads to discovery except in DA:O, that discovery never actually comes to pass.

It's why I wanted to like Sten in the beginning. I wanted to believe there was a chance there was something under that melancholy gray, but there wasn't. It was just grunt grunt cookies grunt chauvinism grunt. He was an empty shell. Morrigan is like Sten. Cynicism cynicism cynicism oh hey boobs cynicism. Leliana became a stereotype after "discovery". The standard running from your past character. Alistair became the standard "I wanna be cool and slum" noble kid trying to be a commoner.

The only character that had any of the "discovery" deal was Shale and as a result, Shale was the only character that I didn't find annoying or flat. Shale would most likely be the character remembered if DA:O has any legacy.

That's a far cry from Baldur's Gate. There is still much love for Minsc and Boo. Much love for Edwin/Edwina. And obviously strong reaction as previously mentioned for Aerie. You remembered Viconia because you could change her.

It's a fantasy game in the end. You want extremes in personality because those extremes are what makes you remember characters. These people are supposed to be the heroes of the fantasy setting they are in. They are not just normal people. This holds true for even the re-telling of real events. You don't study World War 2 and learn about some random soldier on the front line, but you'll learn about the Rommels and the MacArthurs and the Pattons.

[Dieover]

Lord Phoebus wrote...

I'd have to say dog. He has overwhelm going for him, but he can't take a pounding and he doesn't have enough abilities. Followed by Sten, only one spec and a second two-hander warrior.

I don't why people are complaining about Morrigan, she's almost perfectly set up for DPS and CC. She can pick up Sleep/Waking Nightmare and CoC very fast, giving her some decent CC, then go for Blizzard, Tempest, Mana Clash (which through Spell Might opens SotC). Somewhere in there give her affliction hex (you can fill up the rest at the end). Spec her as a blood mage and you have an almost perfect DPS mage. Seriously if I'm not playing a mage she sets ups or kills 90% of the enemies.

indeed : )

I love my Morrigan. CC and nukes!

[Zenon]

Kelston wrote...

-snipped-

The problem I found with DA:O is exactly what you said. A mixed character leads to discovery except in DA:O, that discovery never actually comes to pass.

In my first playthough I didn't talk as deep with every companion. Perhaps there could have been more. I'm still enjoying the game. You seem to have a point here, that there could be even more depth or dark secrets hidden in the characters than actually is.

The only character that had any of the "discovery" deal was Shale and as a result, Shale was the only character that I didn't find annoying or flat. Shale would most likely be the character remembered if DA:O has any legacy.

Same here. Shale is cool & rocks.

That's a far cry from Baldur's Gate. There is still much love for Minsc and Boo. Much love for Edwin/Edwina. And obviously strong reaction as previously mentioned for Aerie. You remembered Viconia because you could change her.

Makes me want to play BG & BG2 -- seems I missed a lot! If I just didn't loathe the old GUI interface... and if it wasn't like I haven't played "The Witcher" yet or was anticipating ME2 already... One day I should find time for that hoping it runs on my new Vista Laptop.

[Sidney]

Templar Vilmon wrote...

Am I the only one who finds Leliana useless besides her lockpicking skills? If I need range, I'm going Morrigan. If I want close combat rogue skills, it's Zevran. Is there some key skill that Leliana has that I'm missing?

Three words: Arrow of Slaying. Stun a foe then drop 250+ points of damage on them. Toss in scattershot for crowd control and she is far, far from useless,

Modifié par Sidney, 14 décembre 2009 - 01:43 .

[Titanmike357]

Wow, besides the raging amount of personal opinions in here, and the people who need a mod to build a NPC party member, I am not sure if any of you ( besides maybe a few ) answered the question on who is the most useless.



The thing is, none of them are useless, all the time, and none of them are useful all the time.



Shale, The most OP NPC member in the game, he can out tank anyone save a purpose built PC, or he can provide great party buffs, OR he can be a good DPS / tank mix.



Sten, even with his lack of a 2nd spec point, sten is still very, very good, drop points into will power, and STR equally, and put him in heavy armor that helps talent costs, save some points and max the reaver tree.

AOE DPS, AOE stun, Self heals and with enough willpower, he is basically limited only by cool downs.



The dwarf, I can't remember names sorry.

Zerker is meh, after building my own PC as a two hander warrior reaver/champ would be better or even templar for anti-mage and the knght commander armor.

While he does have the edge on sten in spec points, I hardly ever get him early, but the same reaver build works for him as well.



Al,

Well, besides the many paths you can take him on, he is the best non-DLC tank you have, if you spec him for it, a balance of STR/DEX and some con/will where you can allows him to have good HP, and great Def ( dex ) as well as taunt and a some what sizable stamana pool.



Dog,

Great for what he is really, he has a AOE stun, and does good steady damage.



Wynne,

Shes a healer, and can turn a twohander reaver build into a god, with stamina and healing spells.



Morg,

a good DPS mage, could add SH for some heals, or Bm for some more killing power.



Zev,

Assassin is rather meh, but with dualist and the backstab while stunned skill, and dog/morg using AOE stun he could really put out the hurt even under A.I control.



The bard,

Bard/ranger makes her a great support DPS, as well as providing lock picking.



Over all, my personal favs are Sten, Al and wynne with my PC.

[Tula Tsunami]

Marvin TPA wrote...

Lot of time for all of them; generally my main was most useless. Hogged all the best gear, never really said much apart from repeating a few pat phrases, and hardly had any tactics set up.

Oh and Wynne what a nag. Even the health on tap can't compensate.

I agree, our mains can be so needy at times, and don't get me started about about spending all the groups funds.

Shale is handy in a few of the battles VS mages, does seems to be a decent meat shield there.

Sten......totally worthless from the first time you meet him.

[XOGHunter246]

zevran for me because he has no lockpicking to be useful

[Koralis]

Doing the landsmeet, and being told that I couldn't take Shale, I decided to check out Dog.   Uggg.  Just as well that I know now rather than using him my next playthrough though!

[Killian Kalthorne]

Sten, the dwarf, and Zevran are all pretty useless to me. There are way to many warriors in the party lineup. Shale and Alistair are both excellent tanks and a rogue without lock picking is useless since we can't bash chests (unmodded). What we need is more varied mage types and rogue types. Too many warriors.