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[sagefic]

According to IMDB: "In writing the character of Alistair, David Gaider drew inspiration from "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" (1997)'s Xander and "Firefly" (2002)'s Mal Reynolds. ( http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1541718/ )

Okay, Xander I can see...

But Mal? Really?

Perhaps the idea was that their dark humor is the same, but sadly, the rest of what made Mal totally awesome - what made him the sort of guy for whose sake you'd face the darkspawn, the archdemon, an angry Flemeth AND a ship full of Reavers - well, I'm sorry, but Alistair didn't have it.

And that thing is...I dunno. Chutzpa? Charisma? Awesomeness? It's whatever the PC supposedly has tons of and doesn't leave any left over for anyone else.

I started in on the Al romance option only to give up, back off, and marry the guy off to Anora. I was acting out of a sense of duty at first, but the fact that he made SO little protest once I batted my strangely black eyelashes and used (Persuade) really killed any guilt I felt over it. You'd think the guy would make more of a protest.

Thing is, as a character, I really liked Alistair. I found him to be unique, interesting, consistent, a nice twist on the "noble knight" character. As a friend I enjoyed him much more than as a romance puppy - I mean, option.

In the end, I was really pleased I'd chosen the route of pissing him off to finally see him DO something other than follow me and whine. However, it did end him as a romance option. So, Alistair was good character, just not good romance option.

Now, if only Mal Reynolds...

See, Mal Reynolds is awesome because he is a PC sort of dude. I would have LOVED to have a Mal in the Grey Wardens, helping lead and army, pissing people off in the process. And while it might be a little harder to for me to be the "leader" with such a person in the party, I would welcome the challenge/partnership. (At it was, two of my favorite characters were Sten and Ohgren, mostly because I found them hard to impress with mere gifts and talking. Only time and proving yourself works with them. And as a result, they seemed like the kind of guys you really wanted at your back in a battle.)

My point is this:

I enjoy romantic subplots in games as I enjoy a good romantic subplot in a fantasy novel (or sci-fi mini series): It's a nice foil to the action - a little moment of hope and happiness in a whole lot of blood and bleak. It makes the stakes higher, but also points to something that's worth fighting for. But the problem is that in books (or mini series), of course, there are no PCs or NPCs - there's just peeps - and they can all have a share in the Awesomeness. In games, the PC drives the action, I get that, but often the PC is written in such a way that they are SO strong, the companions - ESPECIALLY the romantic ones - seem weak by comparison. Granted, they have to be written such that they are capable of falling in love with the PC, who's personality is totally up for grabs. 

So to quote Zevran: What say you? Is it even possible to have a romantic NPC be a strong character too? To have them feel like the equal of the PC and not just someone trailing around behind them, loving them whether the PC is a saint who looks like Angeline Jolie covered in hot fudge or some scruffy-looking nug-humper?

I ask this for any romance options - not just female PC romancing male PC. I also ask this with the utmost respect for what Bioware has done with their characters and stories - they do tell great tales, or I wouldn't still be buying these games. But I just wonder if it's possible to see strong characters that remain strong even when they are the romance options.

Still musing on this one...

Modifié par sagequeen, 14 décembre 2009 - 05:53 .

[Lughsan35]

The trouble with Malcolm Reynolds and with your assertion by proxy is that Malcolm Reynolds became a leader only due to a complete void of leadership all around him.



He led because he had to... if he had his way he'd be happy in some small part of the Verse with Inanara snuggling up to him.



And its far more difficult to write a romance where a strong lead is doing the romancing and therefor the easier route for a passive agressive option is taken.

[Recidiva]

I can see the inspiration, but Alistair lacks a few things. Good ideas, for one. And Mal's character had a belief in himself and his strategy and his goals, and he inspired leadership by being good at it.

And I don't think it's hard to write two strong characters in love that work together. My marriage, for instance. Not lacking in differences of opinion, but adding in respect for the other person's opinion and a willingness to listen. It was written very well right up until the good ideas and the listening ceased to exist for either the PC or the NPC. Right about Landsmeet.

I could have asked at least for a Zoe to back me up. Just as smart, just as loyal, and complementary in style and inspiration. Not someone who ends up crying in a corner.

Alistair is really Inara to the PC's Mal.

And he's only Xander in the way that he's really in love with Duncan (Buffy) and you're Anya.

Modifié par Recidiva, 14 décembre 2009 - 01:26 .

[Adria Teksuni]

I thought Alistair faced the same sort of moral dilemmas that Mal faced, and had the same reluctant acceptance of them. Mal was most definitely a romantic, and it didn't take much for the rusty armor and old white horse to come out, which I absolutely adored about him. The Firefly universe is much like DO:A in that very rarely is there an absolute right choice. So much is predicated on survival, politics, and just plain differences between individuals doing what they think is right.



Alistair is also a romantic in that regard. He has a pretty strong compass of "right" and he has no qualms piping up and letting you know. If you make him become King, and don't become his Queen, he is more than capable of making the hard choices and inspiring leadership. However, he, like Mal, never aspired to it. But when forced to it, he is competent and able.

[mousestalker]

What separates Mal from Alistair is an inner toughness. THE moment that defined Malcolm Reynolds for me was when he kicked the guy into the engine jet in the pilot. Malcolm Reynolds is the Han Solo that shot first. He's the guy who is willing to get his fists bloody to defend his people. He wants the world to be better than it is, but he has no illusions about how it really is. Alistair wants to have it both ways. He wants to be Sir Galahad and not hurt anyone. He wants his vengeance to have no after effects. He wants to defeat Loghain, keep Anora off the throne and not be king himself.

[mousestalker]

Oh and my first character wound up being Willow to Alistair's Xander, which is rather odd, really.

[Selvec_Darkon]

No No, I see. Battle Humor. He makes light of even the smallest things to cover his insecruites, much like Mal.

[Recidiva]

Adria Teksuni wrote...

I thought Alistair faced the same sort of moral dilemmas that Mal faced, and had the same reluctant acceptance of them. Mal was most definitely a romantic, and it didn't take much for the rusty armor and old white horse to come out, which I absolutely adored about him. The Firefly universe is much like DO:A in that very rarely is there an absolute right choice. So much is predicated on survival, politics, and just plain differences between individuals doing what they think is right.

Alistair is also a romantic in that regard. He has a pretty strong compass of "right" and he has no qualms piping up and letting you know. If you make him become King, and don't become his Queen, he is more than capable of making the hard choices and inspiring leadership. However, he, like Mal, never aspired to it. But when forced to it, he is competent and able.

Well, it has to do with symbols.  Mal really only gets your total loyalty if you're the ship.  Anything for the ship. 

It depends on who you think Alistair is in love with.  It's not the PC.  It's either the Grey Wardens or Duncan.

But Mal also would have made clear that if you screw over his ship, he'll cut your throat.  Alistair failed in those warnings.  Even if your final choices do benefit Ferelden and end the Blight, he can still be a real pain in the ass about it.

If you marry him to Anora and spare Loghain, there's a lot of pissed.  Even though you're saving his life, doing the best thing for Ferelden and honoring Duncan's and Riordan's image of the Grey Wardens.

And it's the appreciation of final goals that's lacking.  Saving the ship is always paramount.  Mal would appreciate any means.  Alistair only appreciates means if they benefit him and his goals, not what he says he values.

Modifié par Recidiva, 14 décembre 2009 - 01:35 .

[Recidiva]

mousestalker wrote...

What separates Mal from Alistair is an inner toughness. THE moment that defined Malcolm Reynolds for me was when he kicked the guy into the engine jet in the pilot. Malcolm Reynolds is the Han Solo that shot first. He's the guy who is willing to get his fists bloody to defend his people. He wants the world to be better than it is, but he has no illusions about how it really is. Alistair wants to have it both ways. He wants to be Sir Galahad and not hurt anyone. He wants his vengeance to have no after effects. He wants to defeat Loghain, keep Anora off the throne and not be king himself.

And the willingness to strap the bodies of his dead friends onto his ship and appear to be a Reaver.

That's a tough sell to Alistair.  He's stuck on appearance.  Not substance.

[Adria Teksuni]

Selvec_Darkon wrote...

No No, I see. Battle Humor. He makes light of even the smallest things to cover his insecruites, much like Mal.

Oh yeah, and this.  Tee-hee!

And Alistair has that inner toughness, but it only comes out in certain situations.  I think that works.  He's not the leader, he doesn't have to make the tough decisions, he's there to advise you.  If he'd been forced to be the leader of the group; 1 - It would have been a really short game and 2 - I think he would have done admirably well.

Of course he wants Loghain dead, Anora not to get the throne, and not to be king, Mal would feel the same way.  But, with the exception of throwing a hissy about Loghain surviving, he does what needs to be done, i.e. becomes king, marries Anora, gives up his romance, sacrifices himself, take your pick. 

But like Mal, he'll only do it when it needs to be done.  He wants to hold onto his illusions, as did Mal.

[Recidiva]

Selvec_Darkon wrote...

No No, I see. Battle Humor. He makes light of even the smallest things to cover his insecruites, much like Mal.

It's funny, I don't see it this way.  My use of humor is pretty Whedonesque and it isn't so much to cover up insecurities as it is to put sugar in with the medicine.  I associate being serious all the time with being intensely boring and taking oneself more seriously than one should.

In the Korcari Wilds, Alistair is an excellent leader, making clear he's there to protect you, sense darkspawn, but not make it easy for you.

And then he falls to pieces.

It would have been much more helpful had they not had that scene at all.  He's got just the right leadership tone and toughness.  Which makes it jarring when suddenly he can't summon that tone or toughness ever again.

[robertthebard]

I guess nobody really gets Mal Reynolds. He's not a leader because he was forced to be. Nobody forced him to buy Serenity, and set off to start out a really nice, if short lived series. In the movie, he tells Inara something similar to this. "Maybe that's not the person to lead, but these people need someone to follow", or something like that. Nothing in the series ever led me to believe that Mal would much rather follow Zoe, and frankly, if he was really that weak, Zoe would be captain.



This is a direct contrast to Alistair, who would much rather follow. You have to harden him to even think about making him King, and frankly, even with doing that, I'm not comfortable with the decision. Yes, he may very well turn out good at it, but nothing in his personality, for example, a non hardened Alistair, upon learning that Loghain is not only going to live, but become a Grey Warden, leaves Ferelden to it's fate, turning his back on everything that he claims to have espoused since you met him. Tell me at what point in Firefly, or Serenity, when it got time to make the hard choices, did Mal ever just leave Serenity and the crew to their fates?



So, I'd say that if Mal was a model for Alistair, it was a mirror image. Because frankly, if you don't harden him, and make him marry Anora, or take the throne alone, there are no "I can see Mal doing that" moments. I can see some of Xander in him though. He will by and large blindly follow you. Xander always blindly followed Buffy, except in matters where his jealousy overrode his common sense, anything to do with Angel, for example, and ultimately, in Season 7, where he's convinced that Faith would make a better leader of the potentials. Again, however, I'm not sure which head he's thinking with when he makes that choice.

[Cybercat999]

Recidiva wrote...

In the Korcari Wilds, Alistair is an excellent leader, making clear he's there to protect you, sense darkspawn, but not make it easy for you.

And then he falls to pieces.

It would have been much more helpful had they not had that scene at all.  He's got just the right leadership tone and toughness.  Which makes it jarring when suddenly he can't summon that tone or toughness ever again.

This. I noticed that too.
I cant believe that Duncans death can so totally screw up a guy that he develops completely different personality. Alistair at Ostragar and Alistair in the rest of the game are not the same people.

[Recidiva]

robertthebard wrote...

I guess nobody really gets Mal Reynolds. He's not a leader because he was forced to be. Nobody forced him to buy Serenity, and set off to start out a really nice, if short lived series. In the movie, he tells Inara something similar to this. "Maybe that's not the person to lead, but these people need someone to follow", or something like that. Nothing in the series ever led me to believe that Mal would much rather follow Zoe, and frankly, if he was really that weak, Zoe would be captain.

This is a direct contrast to Alistair, who would much rather follow. You have to harden him to even think about making him King, and frankly, even with doing that, I'm not comfortable with the decision. Yes, he may very well turn out good at it, but nothing in his personality, for example, a non hardened Alistair, upon learning that Loghain is not only going to live, but become a Grey Warden, leaves Ferelden to it's fate, turning his back on everything that he claims to have espoused since you met him. Tell me at what point in Firefly, or Serenity, when it got time to make the hard choices, did Mal ever just leave Serenity and the crew to their fates?

So, I'd say that if Mal was a model for Alistair, it was a mirror image. Because frankly, if you don't harden him, and make him marry Anora, or take the throne alone, there are no "I can see Mal doing that" moments. I can see some of Xander in him though. He will by and large blindly follow you. Xander always blindly followed Buffy, except in matters where his jealousy overrode his common sense, anything to do with Angel, for example, and ultimately, in Season 7, where he's convinced that Faith would make a better leader of the potentials. Again, however, I'm not sure which head he's thinking with when he makes that choice.

Amen.  I think some of the humor got grafted on, which was ultimately a disservice to the PC attempting to estimate his ability to think straight or act sanely.

Xander got jerked around to serve the story, and so did Alistair.  Mal's show didn't last long enough to let that happen, thank the Maker.

But Alistair becomes the embodiment of grief and helplessness, when you really needed someone there to deal with it and kick some ass.  You had the same archetypal brooding and angry NPC, only with funny one liners that made it seem he was much cooler than he was.

[Gecon]

Firefly is awesome. The guy who decided to cancel Firefly after the first season is the biggest possible idiot in the history of television ever. The scripts are works of genius - even much better than Buffy, which is already brilliant.

And the actors where gigantic, too. In Star Trek terms, it is as if Spock, Data, Picard, Beverly Crusher, Ensign Ro and Seven of Nine would have been casted into the same tv show. Nothing but great actors which where carefully handselected for their roles.

Ah, well. At least we got ONE season of this. And maybe, just maybe, season two wouldnt have been that uber good as the first season, who knows.

We cant have Mal in DA, though. Reason is simple: Mal is a leader - Alistair is a party NPC. Mal as a follower ? Not really.

[SarEnyaDor]

Yeah, I concur - Alistair is Zander, not Mal, except maybe in the body type.



Your female PC is Buffy, except a Buffy who possibly returns his affections, but even if you don't he still worships from afar and will sacrifice himself for you because of those feelings...



Your PC could be Mal, but not Alistair, not as written, maybe he'll grow up into Mal as the hardened king, but we get him thoroughly Zander-ized.



I don't care, I still love him.

[Recidiva]

Cybercat999 wrote...

This. I noticed that too.
I cant believe that Duncans death can so totally screw up a guy that he develops completely different personality. Alistair at Ostragar and Alistair in the rest of the game are not the same people.

In the end I blame...paradoxically...really good writing and really excellent vocal delivery.  Steve Valentine sells Leader Alistair and grieving Alistair so well that I'm lulled into a false sense of coolness.

I understand grief, and pain, and I understand humor, and I get all those things.  The only few times he even gets any whining is playfully, like when dog bites his hand or when he's in the Fade.

Not being willing to be king is such an insanely small trifle it's like being unwilling to get your ears pierced to save Ferelden.  I found it impossible to take that seriously.  He says he doesn't want to be king, but never throws the full-blown tantrum until the moment comes.

In fact he even tells Arl Eamon he'll be king if that's required.  But never discloses his hissy fit until Landsmeet.  Don't you think we should have gotten a few more hints?   "No, don't make me king or I'll poison you.  I swear.  I'm not doing it."  Would have made the whole thing a lot easier to take.  That sort of thing shouldn't come as a surprise.

[mousestalker]

Maybe Alistair is more like Wash? A Wash looking for his Zoe.

On an unrelated note, what this game really needs is Jayne. Zevran is the closest character that comes to him, but ......

Modifié par mousestalker, 14 décembre 2009 - 02:07 .

[SeanMurphy2]

When the writers say they were inspired by a certain character. I don't think it is the whole character or personality. It could be one trait or aspect that gives them inspiration to write the character.



He may have had the guy's voice in his head when writing Alistair.



Apparently Zevran was loosely inspired by a Whedon character But in the end result you don't see the resemblance. Because he becomes an entirely different character. Otherwise people would complain about plagiarism and reusing characters..

[cpip]

Recidiva wrote...

Not being willing to be king is such an insanely small trifle it's like being unwilling to get your ears pierced to save Ferelden.  I found it impossible to take that seriously.  He says he doesn't want to be king, but never throws the full-blown tantrum until the moment comes.

In fact he even tells Arl Eamon he'll be king if that's required.  But never discloses his hissy fit until Landsmeet.  Don't you think we should have gotten a few more hints?   "No, don't make me king or I'll poison you.  I swear.  I'm not doing it."  Would have made the whole thing a lot easier to take.  That sort of thing shouldn't come as a surprise.

I don't know; it certainly didn't come as a surprise to me.  Every step of the way you see he's desperately trying to avoid having any responsibility for others at all.  He takes command because Duncan tells him to, but ultimately, he's still hanging back and letting the three recruits lead the way.  Conversations with everyone from Morrigan to Shale reflect that ultimately, he doesn't WANT to be in charge.  He doesn't want that responsibility.  

At the same time, he resents being told what to do.  You see that at Arl Eamon's, if you suggest he marry Anora.  "Are you going to talk about me like I'm not even here?  I'm not hearing this, la la la." 

Alistair is still in many ways immature, and indeed, I think someone upthread hit it: he wants to be the hero knight of legend, but not have to deal with the responsibility.

How he manages to stay that way after everything you go through together to get to the Landsmeet is a bit odd, I'd have to say.

[Cybercat999]

I dont know if any of you romanced unhardened Alistair. I tried once. When I asked him after "tent scene" (he initiated it and I even let him persuade my PC for a bit) where he sees us going after that, he basically said "duty and honor come first and will probably screw us up". If that is not the "I am warning you in front about dumping you" excuse, then I never heard one.

And then, when his duty lies clearly in becoming and staying the king for the best of his people, he suddenly decides to drop all that and goes to get himself killed over me.

Now I dont know if its just me but the only thing I see in that kind of action is actually Alistair getting the easy way out of his problems.

[Recidiva]

SeanMurphy2 wrote...

When the writers say they were inspired by a certain character. I don't think it is the whole character or personality. It could be one trait or aspect that gives them inspiration to write the character.

He may have had the guy's voice in his head when writing Alistair.

Apparently Zevran was loosely inspired by a Whedon character But in the end result you don't see the resemblance. Because he becomes an entirely different character. Otherwise people would complain about plagiarism and reusing characters..

I think I am kinda complaining about plagiarism.  In a way.  Not as an accusation.  But in the sense that you're using one particular tone of delivery for a character that doesn't merit it.  A bit of a bait and switch.  There's a lot of REALLY good writing and voice acting in there.  Alistair just, as a character, didn't deserve all of it.

He's the goose that lays the golden egg until Landsmeet, where he starts laying lead.  He really can't be both as a genuine character.  He can only be one as a grafted species.

[gotthammer]

mousestalker wrote...

Maybe Alistair is more like Wash? A Wash looking for his Zoe.

On an unrelated note, what this game really needs is Jayne. Zevran is the closest character that comes to him, but ......

HEhehe. A 'Jayne' would be awesome...but only if he's voiced by Baldwin.
Maybe he could be like a rogue Qunari...with lots of cannons.

[mousestalker]

Cybercat999 wrote...
Now I dont know if its just me but the only thing I see in that kind of action is actually Alistair getting the easy way out of his problems.

Yes. I actually lost it when I realized there was no way to keep him from killing the archdemon. I was actually furious at both him and Riordan ("take Alistair along"), which just shows how immersive this game can be.

[Recidiva]

Cybercat999 wrote...

I dont know if any of you romanced unhardened Alistair. I tried once. When I asked him after "tent scene" (he initiated it and I even let him persuade my PC for a bit) where he sees us going after that, he basically said "duty and honor come first and will probably screw us up". If that is not the "I am warning you in front about dumping you" excuse, then I never heard one.
And then, when his duty lies clearly in becoming and staying the king for the best of his people, he suddenly decides to drop all that and goes to get himself killed over me.
Now I dont know if its just me but the only thing I see in that kind of action is actually Alistair getting the easy way out of his problems.

Right.  In a game where you're given lots of creative opportunities to sidestep character weaknesses, this one is a fish slap to the face.

"Yes, I let you drive the bus the whole way, but now I'm grabbing the wheel and driving us straight over a cliff."