12 réponses à ce sujet

[sagefic]

According to IMDB: "In writing the character of Alistair, David Gaider drew inspiration from "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" (1997)'s Xander and "Firefly" (2002)'s Mal Reynolds. ( http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1541718/ )

Okay, Xander I can see...

But Mal? Really?

Perhaps the idea was that their dark humor is the same, but sadly, the rest of what made Mal totally awesome - what made him the sort of guy for whose sake you'd face the darkspawn, the archdemon, an angry Flemeth AND a ship full of Reavers - well, I'm sorry, but Alistair didn't have it.

And that thing is...I dunno. Chutzpa? Charisma? Awesomeness? It's whatever the PC supposedly has tons of and doesn't leave any left over for anyone else.

I started in on the Al romance option only to give up, back off, and marry the guy off to Anora. I was acting out of a sense of duty at first, but the fact that he made SO little protest once I batted my strangely black eyelashes and used (Persuade) really killed any guilt I felt over it. You'd think the guy would make more of a protest.

Thing is, as a character, I really liked Alistair. I found him to be unique, interesting, consistent, a nice twist on the "noble knight" character. As a friend I enjoyed him much more than as a romance puppy - I mean, option.

In the end, I was really pleased I'd chosen the route of pissing him off to finally see him DO something other than follow me and whine. However, it did end him as a romance option. So, Alistair was good character, just not good romance option.

Now, if only Mal Reynolds...

See, Mal Reynolds is awesome because he is a PC sort of dude. I would have LOVED to have a Mal in the Grey Wardens, helping lead and army, pissing people off in the process. And while it might be a little harder to for me to be the "leader" with such a person in the party, I would welcome the challenge/partnership. (At it was, two of my favorite characters were Sten and Ohgren, mostly because I found them hard to impress with mere gifts and talking. Only time and proving yourself works with them. And as a result, they seemed like the kind of guys you really wanted at your back in a battle.)

My point is this:

I enjoy romantic subplots in games as I enjoy a good romantic subplot in a fantasy novel (or sci-fi mini series): It's a nice foil to the action - a little moment of hope and happiness in a whole lot of blood and bleak. It makes the stakes higher, but also points to something that's worth fighting for. But the problem is that in books (or mini series), of course, there are no PCs or NPCs - there's just peeps - and they can all have a share in the Awesomeness. In games, the PC drives the action, I get that, but often the PC is written in such a way that they are SO strong, the companions - ESPECIALLY the romantic ones - seem weak by comparison. Granted, they have to be written such that they are capable of falling in love with the PC, who's personality is totally up for grabs. 

So to quote Zevran: What say you? Is it even possible to have a romantic NPC be a strong character too? To have them feel like the equal of the PC and not just someone trailing around behind them, loving them whether the PC is a saint who looks like Angeline Jolie covered in hot fudge or some scruffy-looking nug-humper?

I ask this for any romance options - not just female PC romancing male PC. I also ask this with the utmost respect for what Bioware has done with their characters and stories - they do tell great tales, or I wouldn't still be buying these games. But I just wonder if it's possible to see strong characters that remain strong even when they are the romance options.

Still musing on this one...

Modifié par sagequeen, 14 décembre 2009 - 05:53 .

[David Gaider]

I see some people have trouble differentiating between "drew inspiration from" and "is based upon". Saying that Alistair was inspired by Xander or Mal is not the same as suggesting that I wanted Alistair to *be* exactly like Xander or Mal. I took the selective elements of their characters that said something to me personally, things that I wanted to incorporate into a new character.
Are those not the same elements that YOU see in those characters? Shocking.

As for whether or not a romance could be a "strong" character, that depends on your definition. If your expectation is that a strong male romance should be a leader, then you're barking up the wrong tree -- unless you'd really like one of your party members to take charge of the party and otherwise competing with your Alpha-ness. That might work fine in a novel, but not so much in a game. Think about it.

If a "strong" character means a romance where the object of your affections is simply more assertive and masculine -- so long as he isn't attempting to be top dog in the party structure, I don't see a reason why not. Just because Alistair and Zevran were never intended to be that type of character doesn't mean it can't happen. Not unless you think those two were meant to be representative of all romances, that is.

And if someone suggests that Alistair in particular wasn't a good romantic option, I think the legion of Alistair fangirls would disagree.

[David Gaider]

tigrina wrote...
While this is true* enough, I hope you can also see the tons of fangirls who are just massively disappointed with the Landsmeet or after.

There is a lack of talk with party members about the Landsmeet in my opinion.

Besides that, the whole ending makes me totally frustrated.

I think the frustration of those fangirls is indicative of their emotional involvement. This is a sign of something done right, not wrong -- though I'm not saying that it should establish a pattern or anything.

[David Gaider]

LdyShayna wrote...
However, it would be interesting to know how the character developed.  Alas!  I fear it may be one of those "Tales Never Told".

The original concept for Alistair was a "grizzled Grey Warden veteran", as per James Ohlen (who was the original DA Lead Designer). That is, in fact, how Alistair was first written. Thing is, that didn't work very well for a character that needed to join the player but not lead -- and the experience level implied by "veteran" didn't mesh very well with the fact that Alistair needed to join the player early on in the story when everyone was low level. So I ended up re-writing Alistair into someone that worked better as a low-level support character, someone more likeable.

The concept art that you see for Alistair was based only on James Ohlen's description. Mal Reynolds was never mentioned back then, so really has nothing to do with it.

[David Gaider]

tigrina wrote...
Ha. While my inner softy totally falls for a fairy tale ending, it is not that what I was hinting at necessarily. It is the lack of being able to talk about stuff which annoys me the most. Let me have my fight with Alistair before or at least just the two of us at the Landsmeet. It is fine if he totally disagrees with me, or wants to dump me or whatever, but give me the option to talk about it (note: not *change*, just talk!). Let me at least see *why* he does what he does, that is fine by me. The string of events without the ability to talk with him or any other of your little party for that matter, that is what is frustrating me the most.

I've seen this brought up a few times before. I don't know if the problem here is one of expectation -- I suppose it's flattering that someone doing the Alistair romance expects that the game should turn into the equivalent of a novel centered on it, but the truth of the matter is that Alistair is already a huge character and by far the biggest in the game. The variations in his development even without the romance were already large. At some point it really does have to be recognized that it's a game and such content is limited -- without making the game entirely about this one single romance I don't think we can provide the kind of involvement that some of the fans seem to expect.

In fact, I'm starting to think that maybe the expectation is the problem. Building up the idea that you can talk to a party member at any time, about almost anything, seems to suddenly give rise to "well why couldn't I talk to them about this? Or this? Or this other thing?" It might be worth considering having romances smaller and leaving more to the imagination -- or building a story entirely around the idea of a single romance. Though I don't think the latter is going to happen anytime soon -- still, listening to people compare said romance to the idea that it *should* have been like that and thus finding it lacking is a bit disconcerting.

[David Gaider]

LdyShayna wrote...
Gah!  Collateral damage here, David. I've worked really hard at my expectation self management skills.   Don't punish me, too. 

Well, the issue with expectations does not like in your hands but in ours. If we build up the notion that you can talk to your romance about anything, then suddenly when you can't talk to him about something it becomes a glaring omission in your mind. I get it, but the problem is not yours but ours for establishing that expectation in the first place. Perhaps, if we are not willing to make the game entirely about a romance, we should not write the party members as if that is the case.

Something to consider, maybe.

sagequeen wrote...
 hmmm...maybe less IS more though. NWN2 had scads of people modding and discussing the romances which, IMO, were pretty much non-existent. 

I remember people saying the same thing about NWN1, talking about "the Sharwyn romance" when it consisted of a couple of lines of flirting and no more. The answer may not be in having a massive romance with even more lines and variations but in not establishing the impression that every conversation you have with your romance is all that exists. Clearly if you leave some blank space, players will fill in those blanks themselves.

Modifié par David Gaider, 14 décembre 2009 - 05:56 .

[Mary Kirby]

Recidiva wrote...

Colenda wrote...

To be rejected on race and class is enough. To then have him decide he's taking the final blow despite my orders because I'm a girl...worse.

Um - he decides he's taking the final blow because he loves you, surely?

And his love is stronger than mine and his will stronger than mine...because?  

Honestly, I think this just reinforces what David said.  You get a lot of opportunity to control Alistair.  You dictate his actions in combat, and in conversation, you are always in control.  That's not a realistic expectation to create, and maybe making him a little bit less interactive would have helped.  What does "comparative strength of will and/or love" have to do with anything?  Does your love or your willpower make you faster than him? I've been married to my husband for almost ten years, and I can't get him to stop leaving his dirty socks on the living room floor.   I don't anticipate that I can suddenly talk him out of running in front of me, if that's what he decides to do, or that I will gain a magical burst of speed upon demand because I love him the most.

[David Gaider]

So... am I reading this right? Alistair sacrificing himself to save the woman he loves is... sexist? 

[Mary Kirby]

David Gaider wrote...

So... am I reading this right? Alistair sacrificing himself to save the woman he loves is... sexist? 

You pig!

[Mary Kirby]

Taleroth wrote...

Obviously, if Alistair loves the PC so much that he's willing to sacrifice himself, it should go that the PC is allowed the option to sacrifice herself first out of her love.  What is it that automatically demands Alistair gets a headstart?

The PC has the option to do that.  Leave Alistair behind.  Nobody ever said you would get the option to succeed at everything simply because you want to.

[David Gaider]

Jhosephine wrote...
Figured I would find out what my boyfriend thought of this whole subject. Funny thing is, he responded with the question if there wasn't an option to "Fight together and Die together" in some heroic, romantic sacrifice. The sword sure is big enough for an extra set of hands.

Sounds great! Now let's fit that into the budget of the single ending cutscene, so that it can be used along with all the different endings!

[Mary Kirby]

Vormaerin wrote...

This is a false solution.  Its pure metagaming and entirely stupid in character.   First of all, the whole point is to have as many gray wardens on hand to kill the demon as possible.   It would be catastrophically stupid to have my character killed by the archdemon and Alistair twiddling his thumbs at the Gate.   Surviving the fight with the archdemon is not a guaranteed event in a roleplaying sense.   There's no reload until we win strategy available in character.

Secondly, if he throws that kind of fit at the final battle, why wouldn't he throw that same fit at the gate?  Or just follow along and turn up at the archdemon fight with all the other named NPCs?

The whole idea that we manage to knock the archdemon unconscious and have a nice little debate before deciding who does the final blow is a bit a of stretch anyway, but it serves a cinematic purpose.   It is kind of annoying that only the man can step up and make the sacrifice, even if it is the cliche.   Men do tend to like the easy way out, which dying heroically often is.   It definitely is for Loghain and Alistair in this case.

Btw, most of us are aware you have limited art resources and can't put in every single option.  The fact that we want more options is not an attack on the designers, but an expression of the fact that the situations and characters matter to us (ie the designers did a good job).

You think it's metagaming to leave Alistair behind so he doesn't die, but you don't think it's metagaming to assume that you will have some option to decide, in the heat of battle, while you and who knows how many allies are attacking a dragon, who will strike the final blow?  If you bring him to the archdemon, who's to say that one stray sword swing doesn't cost you Alistair, anyway?

[David Gaider]

Recidiva wrote...
No.  Nope.  Sorry.  Not working for me.

And the more someone tries to explain it to me, I'm finding myself a lot angrier.

Well... tough? Sorry you feel that way, but Alistair sacrificing himself for you is how you went down. You're not supposed to like it. You are responsible for it, however -- you did not take Morrigan's offer, which would have saved you both, and then brought him to the Archdemon to... what? Watch the woman he loves die?

I get why you would have wanted to die too, but that's who Alistair is. In this case he ran and did it first. As far as I'm concerned you could have been two steps behind him the entire run towards the Archdemon, but you simply didn't catch up to him in time... because that's how it went down. That's the story.

If you simply don't like that and wanted a different story, I get it. I don't sympathize, but I do understand. It wouldn't be a difficult thing to mod, in fact, as you'd just need to change the scripting in Alistair's last dialogue -- add a "NO WAY, JOSE!" player option that cuts to the original player-dies cutscene. Voila!

Modifié par David Gaider, 15 décembre 2009 - 08:10 .