329 réponses à ce sujet

[tmp7704]

Recidiva wrote...

Just reloaded my elf who replayed that ending about 40 times to work through every ending option (I have a chart!)

That was awesome.  She is now at happy rest.

This is a good day.

Glad to hear   My elf went for Morrigan route so i had no idea what the sacrifice one actually was like until i ran it to check if the mod worked. Now having seen both versions it feels like she's Schrödinger's elf or something...

[Recidiva]

tmp7704 wrote...
Glad to hear   My elf went for Morrigan route so i had no idea what the sacrifice one actually was like until i ran it to check if the mod worked. Now having seen both versions it feels like she's Schrödinger's elf or something...

That particular game did come along with the "Many Worlds" theory with quite a few save games and divergence points.

Unfortunately the epilogues can glitch, and I think it gets worse if you save and restore...somehow or another Alistair ended up married to Anora in one of the many world endings...and I KNOW I didn't do that!

But she was definitely my poor little lab rat.  And she tried soooo hard. 

Schroedinger's elf indeed.

[DeathWyrmNexus]

bobsmyuncle wrote...

Wow, I've lagged behind this conversation. I hate working.

DeathWyrmNexus wrote...

I hate to say, they were actually in a stage before the wandering uterus theory because wasn't that Freud? If not, ignore this part of the statement.

You do make a wonderful point though, one that I am afraid we are probably a few years from seeing. In game leveling choices have more impact. Right now, the game basically lets Coercion and story choices rule the way the story flows but... You are correct. Forcefield could have made him a helpless observer to watching his beloved die. Not a fate I wish on many but I can understand wanting to take the blow for yourself thus his horror is needed for you to spare him.

You also did me a favor by pointing out the gender roles in the game. Even Zevran claims to be a gentleman so one does need to consider cultural norms in that society.

The thought about force field came to me in a fit of pique, and was not an actual expectation of the level of dynamic choice I have for a game. I understand when writers make an executive decision to choose an outcome because at some point you have to get on with your job rather than think of every possible permutation of character skill choice, temperament, etc. They decided this was something Alistair would do based on his character, and decided he got the jump on you, the end.

And no, the Greeks believed in the wandering uterus. Plato wrote about it but I'm not sure if he was the first who did. I'd love to get my hands on a medieval book of simples, there must be reproductions available and they'd be fascinating IMO.

A few semesters ago I took a course in medieval lit* and the ladies did not have it easy. A knight could rape a woman and get away with it as long as she was common (although in the story we read there was a witch involved and the woman was able to make a case to the queen). If she wasn't it was still considered a crime against either her father or husband (whoever her lord was). Women occasionally owned businesses but by and large were chattel. Queens could be set aside for not producing an heir. Compared to that BS Ferelden is progressive. Imagine getting a quest where you come upon a woman being raped by one of the king's men. You'd kill him, probably, or otherwise take up arms to stop him, right? Well guess what, if we were being historically accurate YOU'D be the one in trouble, not him. Not that rape was totally acceptable but it'd have been a bigger problem for you to raise arms against the king.

When compared with Alistair pushing you aside to die for you, when it's completely in character for an adorkable romantic, I just have a hard time getting my feminist ire up (and believe me it doesn't take me much to get going in that regard ).

*The morals in these stories still crack me up. We read one about St. George encountering a pair of newlyweds on the road. St. George politely inquired of the husband what he planned to do to support his wife, and the man responded that he had some money and planned to lend it and live on the interest. St. George then ran him through and told the woman it was better to be a widow than the wife of a usurer.

Oh I do love a history buff. Great stuff and I remember some of that. Thanks for straightening me out on the wandering uterus.

Gotta love the joys of old school society. Did you check the flower seller in Denerim? Seems like Orleis had a lot in common with free rape.

[sagefic]

So...

Coming back to this thread, I have to say this discussion has changed my opinion of Alistair greatly.

First, I see a little more clearly the inspiration from Mal Reynolds and Xander. I still don't think Alistair has the awesomeness of Mal (not that I really expect him to) and I still wish that I could party someone with a little more leadership - even if that means arguing with them throughout the game. Ah well, I'll try it in a NWN2 mod or something and see if it works. Maybe it can't.

As for Al, I think it was you Recidiva, who said that his love is not the fem PC, but the Grey Wardens.

I think that is so true. And it makes me now think that Alistair is probably one of the most nuanced and memorable characters in any game I've played - even as it makes him really frustrating. Consider the evidence:

- he never had anyone want him for himself. he was only taken in anywhere because of his bloodline. UNTIL the grey wardens, who recruited him for his skills

- he never had friends (he mentions arl eamon's was no home and the chantry kids ignored him. in the grey wardens, he has a father figure and lots of buddies.

- he idolizes the grey wardens and what they stand for. you can hear it in his voice in everything he explains about them, including the fact that the really not-so-nice stuff about the grey wardens he sort of just accepts. i kept thinking "wha? i'm gonna die young? how come your'e so okay with this?" but clearly he is willing to take the bad with the good for the sake of the wardens.

- whether male or fem PC, alistair really seems to latch onto you after ostagar precisely because you are a grey warden. this seems to be the basis of his friendship at first and perhaps even his attraction to the fem PC. if playing human noble origin (not sure on the others) flemeth even remarks at her hut that the two of you have a lot in common in terms of loss.

- with the fem PC, i found the romance nice at first, off-putting later. i found it to be so circumstantial. alistair's rose offering was probably the most sincere. the "i think i care about you because we've been through so much together" really felt...odd. perhaps that's just me, but it seemed that his attraction to the fem PC is based in equal parts on attraction, admiration, but also on the fact that you are upholding his ideal of the grey wardens. leiliana and alistair get along, but he's not even remotely noticing her. again, i felt the difference was the grey warden thing.

- when things get difficult with the fem PC romance, Alistair gives up awfully easily. i don't blame him entirely, but it did seem to me to hint that his real feelings lay elsewhere. if you take it that he's in love with the grey wardens, that makes a lot of sense.

- the loghain mercy rampage of his drove this home for me. i totally understand his feelings, but again, it betrays that his real love is the grey wardens. you can't reason with him at all about it - he doesn't want to hear your thoughts on the matter. i'm not saying that someone in love will always agree with everything you have to say, but again, this reinforced for me that his love for the grey wardens ran so deep, he would not allow anything to cross them.

SO in the end, I came back to it and now think that Alistair is not inconsistent as a character, he just has really inconsistent wishes - and that's very believable. he wants everything to go back to the idealized way it was when the grey wardens were around and alive. but as that can't be, he grasps at straws - first shoving aside leadership to the other grey warden, then avoiding admitting his bloodline, then avoiding admitting that he might need to be king, then avoiding dealing with hard decisions about the crown and the archdemon. it's very beliveable and sympathetic, if not terribly mature.

it really reminded me of a scene from The Magnificent Seven (awesome movie) where 3 little boys are telling the gunfighter Bernardo that they are ashamed of their farmer fathers. bernardo takes the one who said it over his knee and gives him a smack, then sets him back and says, (i paraphrase) "you think because i have a gun that i'm brave? your fathers labor every day to provide for you and your family because they love you. this is responsiblity. i have never had that kind of courage." i really feel that alistair is sort of like the gunfighter there. he can handle the kind of courage it takes to fight the darkspawn and face death - to kill the archdemon too. but the bravery it takes to endure day in and day out responsibility terrifies him. and ultimately he will only take it if the PC thrusts it on him.

so, wow, that was long. sheesh!  anyhow, it's not completely a turnaround from where i started: i still kept wanted alistiar to grow up a little - but that's one of the real tragedies of the game right there (int he classic tragic tradition of the hero's own flaws causing him grief). alistair can't let go of the past entirely, and so ends up pushing those around him - notably the PC - to make decisions that aren't entirely ideal in the present.

Modifié par sagequeen, 16 décembre 2009 - 06:22 .

[Recidiva]

Right, sagequeen, nothing to disagree with there.

Alistair as a part of the story has to serve the story first. Then beyond that as a character, is torn between two masters, the PC's choices and his ideals.

So you sort of have this old anatomy drawing where you have the skeleton of the story and then you put on the emotional overlay and then you put on the character inspiration and direction, then you put on what he's got to do...and that gets almost insanely complicated to keep all of his guts inside and functioning at all.

He has to possess at least five sets of brains and seven different hearts to keep all that going. Impressive.

I wouldn't have been so interested in the anatomy lesson if it didn't work so very well. And having to be able to be jerked around in so many different directions probably gives him an overall congential ailment - Idiopathic Episodic Systemic Plot Schizophrenia. or IESPS. There should be a ribbon for sufferers of IESPS. Poor Alistair. Poor Alistair's writers.

Modifié par Recidiva, 16 décembre 2009 - 06:43 .

[Cybercat999]

The one thing that really bugs me about him is when he says he forgot that your entire family was slaughtered in human noble origin. Any normal person would admit that losing both parents, sister-in-law, nephew, brother (you never know Fergus lives until the very end), your lands and your home - is bit more than losing Duncan. Yet Alistair goes on and on about Duncan and completely forgets about your own loss.

Now can someone explain to me how does that hold water with "being in love" or even just a friend with your PC?

[Ravauviel]

Cybercat999 wrote...

The one thing that really bugs me about him is when he says he forgot that your entire family was slaughtered in human noble origin. Any normal person would admit that losing both parents, sister-in-law, nephew, brother (you never know Fergus lives until the very end), your lands and your home - is bit more than losing Duncan. Yet Alistair goes on and on about Duncan and completely forgets about your own loss.
Now can someone explain to me how does that hold water with "being in love" or even just a friend with your PC?

Bad writing.

[sagefic]

Cybercat999 wrote...

The one thing that really bugs me about him is when he says he forgot that your entire family was slaughtered in human noble origin. Any normal person would admit that losing both parents, sister-in-law, nephew, brother (you never know Fergus lives until the very end), your lands and your home - is bit more than losing Duncan. Yet Alistair goes on and on about Duncan and completely forgets about your own loss.
Now can someone explain to me how does that hold water with "being in love" or even just a friend with your PC?

ja. there are very few glitches in the writing, i think, but that is one. his response is actually very sweet at first. ("oh! that's right...oh...i forgot"). he genuinely has forgotten your loss and his reaction is very good.  however, after that, they cut back to the "thank you for talking about duncan with me" line which just sounds odd there.  but truly, that's one of the few moments where that happens.

[Recidiva]

Cybercat999 wrote...

The one thing that really bugs me about him is when he says he forgot that your entire family was slaughtered in human noble origin. Any normal person would admit that losing both parents, sister-in-law, nephew, brother (you never know Fergus lives until the very end), your lands and your home - is bit more than losing Duncan. Yet Alistair goes on and on about Duncan and completely forgets about your own loss.
Now can someone explain to me how does that hold water with "being in love" or even just a friend with your PC?

It doesn't.  It's an immersion killer to the idea of Alistair being "in love" with the PC.  Genuine love and not infatuation or hero worship, anyway.  And there are several of those, where he says "he can't believe you remembered." and you have to remind him over and over that you actually do give a damn, regardless of having said it five times before.  The game really does lead you down the "Alistair is not terribly bright" path with his self-deprecating comments and every other banter with him pointing up how stupid other NPC's think he is.  

But again that dialogue option of asking him if he wants to talk about Duncan is specific to Alistair and not to the PC.    And that conversation has to take place whether he's in love yet or not. 

I can see how the story has to deliver that information.  At least he does apologize.  Repeatedly.  For forgetting or for going on and on.  And the rose is a moment where he specifically says he gets that he's been going on and on and you've been ignored.  If the rose comes before that conversation, not so good.  If it comes after, that's a better progression.  But you're not expected to have taken every conversation option and the game has to treat that like you have, sometimes. 

That said, people who are grieving do very odd things.  Memory loss and distraction are pretty common, and that's the way I chose to treat it.   Getting carried away and contracting foot-in-mouth disease is not weird at funerals or in grieving people at all.  Compared to what I've seen people do when dealing with grief, that's pretty tame.  He is sorry for being insensitive, and at least doesn't tell you that your loss isn't as big as the loss he had.

There are other times in the game where there are specific lines to deal with specific character origins, and those would be when Alistair asks what your culture does to honor the dead.  It probably would have been helpful there for him to say "I know you just lost your family too" rather than ask if you did, but at least he does apologize.

The option is also there for a character who really didn't give much of a damn about their family or wanted to play down the grief factor to Alistair to say the equivalent of "Suck it up."

Which my husband took, by the way.  Oooh.  Angry Alistair voice.

[Maria13]

Cybercat999 wrote...

The one thing that really bugs me about him is when he says he forgot that your entire family was slaughtered in human noble origin. Any normal person would admit that losing both parents, sister-in-law, nephew, brother (you never know Fergus lives until the very end), your lands and your home - is bit more than losing Duncan. Yet Alistair goes on and on about Duncan and completely forgets about your own loss.
Now can someone explain to me how does that hold water with "being in love" or even just a friend with your PC?

Umm, I think I can.  The one thing Alistair yearns for is to have a family but, the key point is, he's never actually had one.  [See his segment in mage tower quest.  A templar hallucinates a sexual partner, Alistair hallucinates a family].  So in terms of losing all your family, it is something he simply cannot comprehend, he attempts to bring it down to a scale which is intelligible to him which is losing Duncan.  It's like a person who has only had a cat or other animal to love, the loss of the pet will be a great emotional loss for that person which someone with a spouse and children may not easily be able to understand or relate to.  Normal functioning humans come with a subset of emotions to invest, the object(s) of that investment will vary from person to person but loss may be compatible whatever the object.

I also think this point is relevant to a previous post:  the grey wardens are effectively the only family he has known.  Whereas everybody else just passed him along when he became inconvenient, they took him in.  Arl Howe describes the grey wardens as a "bunch of second sons", ie unwanted, there's the heirs and the grey wardens are the spares so Alistair, an unwanted bastard, very clearly belonged in that group. 

And then the female PC takes him in and lends him a sympathetic ear and gives him guidance, his love for her at first may be infantile (but is there such a thing as "mature" love anyway?) but I think it is still capable of flourishing into romantic/sexual love.

María13

[Cybercat999]

Thanks for the answers girls, gave me some food for thought



I still cant escape the feeling that the true meaning behind that "slip" is the simple fact that he just doesnt really care that much though :/

[LdyShayna]

Cybercat999 wrote...

Thanks for the answers girls, gave me some food for thought

I still cant escape the feeling that the true meaning behind that "slip" is the simple fact that he just doesnt really care that much though :/

OOC here for a second: I imagine the real reason for the "slip" is probably that they didn't want to have to rewrite the ENTIRE conversation based on a single origin. 

[Recidiva]

Cybercat999 wrote...

Thanks for the answers girls, gave me some food for thought

I still cant escape the feeling that the true meaning behind that "slip" is the simple fact that he just doesnt really care that much though :/

I think you also have to factor in that he's not experienced with grief or love.

To build on what Maria said about capacity, this is his first crush.  And even if he has the emotional capacity of a matchbox, that's one full matchbox.  To his way of thinking, that's as caring as it gets.

Just like someone who has never experienced pain can compare their hangnail to a lost limb and think it's the same thing.  As far as they know, that's as bad as it gets.

As far as Alistair knows, no grief is worse and no love is stronger.  He's got zero basis of comparison.

[Wrathra]

Cybercat999 wrote...

The one thing that really bugs me about him is when he says he forgot that your entire family was slaughtered in human noble origin. Any normal person would admit that losing both parents, sister-in-law, nephew, brother (you never know Fergus lives until the very end), your lands and your home - is bit more than losing Duncan. Yet Alistair goes on and on about Duncan and completely forgets about your own loss.

Now can someone explain to me how does that hold water with "being in love" or even just a friend with your PC?

Isn't the Duncan conversation the first conversation you have with him after Ostegar (sp)?  Alistair is, technically, a perfect stranger at this point in time.  I would not expect anyone who I wasn't - at the very least  - friends with to offer me a shoulder to cry on, regardless of the losses I've suffered. For him to act any other way at that point is icky.  Even our own replies aren't really mushy, they are offering condolences, but they aren't lovey dovey.

It's also very human to be so wrapped up in your own losses that you put other people second. I don't think this reflects how he may feel about someone. He's just being self-absorbed since he just suffered a tremendous loss of his own, as is his right, in my opinion.   And who can really judge how much that meant to him, except him, so saying that the player's loss is more than his is a bit unfair. To you and me, of course, losing your entire family is horrifying, but then again the Wardens were his entire family.  It's similiar enough.   And he does acknowledge it, which no one else really does, except Wynne.

Just my 2 copper, fwiw

[DeathWyrmNexus]

As a self hating lifeform who feels a creepy kinship with Alistair, I feel the need to speak on his defense on this current conversation.



The thing you have to remember is the lack of self worth that Alistair feels. Unfortunately, while this can make a person considerate, it has a very bad tendency to make them self absorbed so they have bouts of thoughtlessness which then bites them in the ass later, repeating the cycle.



Obviously I could be projecting hard enough to do a powerpoint presentation but I found a lot of symptoms to be there. Deflecting with humor, self depreciating humor, self absorption and the remorse when realizing how self absorbed he has been, conflict of ideals and wanting to be invisible... So on and so forth.



It was what really got me about him and why I have yet to bring myself to betray him without reloading the save and getting the Achievement anyway.



So there is something to be said about his past and how it shapes who he is. All his worth has always been about his blood, not him. Basically feeling like excess baggage to the red stuff in his veins. Then the Gray Wardens, etc etc, stuff already said.



Then, Gray Wardens die and he is desperate to keep that self worth of being Alistair only to have Eamon kick him back down to Son of Maric status, not Alistair. So sparing a Loghain was a betrayal to Alistair in favor of Son of Maric. So I choose Alistair and always feel better for it.



Duty is important but you also have to live with that duty and that takes being more than just your blood.



Blah blah, pretend I said something meaningful. XD

[bobsmyuncle]

DeathWyrmNexus wrote...

As a self hating lifeform who feels a creepy kinship with Alistair, I feel the need to speak on his defense on this current conversation.

etc.

Honestly, one thing depression does to you is make you very self-centered. It sounds odd but it's true. I don't think Alistair is depressed but he's definitely insecure and constantly questioning himself and insecure people are not always very considerate or observant of other people's emotions. Not that he doesn't care, he's just kind of emotionally dense. If you get the rose dialogue he does apologize for being "me me me" when by most origins you're probably up to your hips in grief yourself.

As far as him being averse to responsibility, I don't quite agree with what's been posted earlier in the thread. If he's told what to do, he'll shoulder it. He just doesn't want to lead, which is different. He doesn't trust himself and he doesn't want to screw something up and be the guy who let Ferelden fall to the Blight because he messed up. Personally I identify with this. I can't blame him for not wanting to be a leader because IRL I wouldn't either. I'd be a good adviser but left to myself I fret over all the things that could go wrong until I'm paralyzed by indecision. I don't mind being the PC in a video game because hey, if I screw up I can reload. But thinking from the perspective of a person for whom this is real, not just relaxing after work, I'd be throwing up from stress.

I also think Alistair is the kind of guy who just assumes that life is there to kick him in the balls. He loves Eamon, then gets sent to the Chantry where he's lonely and stir crazy. He gets plucked out by a guy who genuinely likes him for who he is and has a bunch of friends to pal around with, and then they all die. So when his birth comes back to haunt him and he loses the woman he's in love with because of it (in the event of a non-noble PC making him King without her, which leads to The Breakup) I can totally picture him being like "Yep, saw this coming" and resigning himself to it. This is similar to Mal Reynolds too, but Mal tends to go "No, **** YOU" where Alistair is more "Oh, this again. Great."

Modifié par bobsmyuncle, 16 décembre 2009 - 11:54 .

[sagefic]

DeathWyrmNexus wrote...


Blah blah, pretend I said something meaningful. XD

nah, i think that's meaningful.  and i agree. i guess what i was trying to say is that after listening to everyone talk about alistair, i think i was wrong in my initial assertion that he's not a strong character.

he IS. he's just...passive aggressive strong. i feel like the PC is ultimately forced to lead, but lead between alistair and morrigan's expectations and desires. and what you choose will inevitably upset someone. both those characters are so inflexible, even as they appear to be malliable.

[Cybercat999]

Recidiva wrote...

Cybercat999 wrote...

Thanks for the answers girls, gave me some food for thought

I still cant escape the feeling that the true meaning behind that "slip" is the simple fact that he just doesnt really care that much though :/

I think you also have to factor in that he's not experienced with grief or love.

To build on what Maria said about capacity, this is his first crush.  And even if he has the emotional capacity of a matchbox, that's one full matchbox.  To his way of thinking, that's as caring as it gets.

Just like someone who has never experienced pain can compare their hangnail to a lost limb and think it's the same thing.  As far as they know, that's as bad as it gets.

As far as Alistair knows, no grief is worse and no love is stronger.  He's got zero basis of comparison.

Yes, you are probably right, some people have zero empathy too.
But then I cant but ask myself how "healthy" a relationship with someone like that can be for anyone capable of that comparision and empathy. You are doomed to get hurt pretty badly and I am not sure that him not even knowing why or how makes it any better.

I mean not everyone that didnt have their leg cut off cant understand that hitting your big toe isnt comparable. Bit exaggerating but you get my point.

[Cybercat999]

Wrathra wrote...

Cybercat999 wrote...

The one thing that really bugs me about him is when he says he forgot that your entire family was slaughtered in human noble origin. Any normal person would admit that losing both parents, sister-in-law, nephew, brother (you never know Fergus lives until the very end), your lands and your home - is bit more than losing Duncan. Yet Alistair goes on and on about Duncan and completely forgets about your own loss.

Now can someone explain to me how does that hold water with "being in love" or even just a friend with your PC?

Isn't the Duncan conversation the first conversation you have with him after Ostegar (sp)?  Alistair is, technically, a perfect stranger at this point in time.  I would not expect anyone who I wasn't - at the very least  - friends with to offer me a shoulder to cry on, regardless of the losses I've suffered. For him to act any other way at that point is icky.  Even our own replies aren't really mushy, they are offering condolences, but they aren't lovey dovey.

My last game that convo option got triggered quite late, after all the "romance" stuff, basically just before the Landsmeet. So no, by that point we were supposed to be anything but strangers.

[Recidiva]

Cybercat999 wrote...

Yes, you are probably right, some people have zero empathy too.
But then I cant but ask myself how "healthy" a relationship with someone like that can be for anyone capable of that comparision and empathy. You are doomed to get hurt pretty badly and I am not sure that him not even knowing why or how makes it any better.

I mean not everyone that didnt have their leg cut off cant understand that hitting your big toe isnt comparable. Bit exaggerating but you get my point.

And that's the thing.  There's a difference between someone who is a liar and someone who is fooling themselves first and then passing it along.  It takes a lot of experience to tell the difference, and in a game there just aren't the signals you'd get in reality to do that sort of in-depth analysis of a person.

Alistair is a character that's written with the range to be everything from a town drunk to the best king in history. 
So he doesn't lack for potential.

Love isn't about health so much as it's about need.  And he needs you a LOT.  Needs to believe in some beauty or connection to something that's real.  Something to fight for.  If it's imperfect, that doesn't mean it's not real.  Maybe the people that always love each other are the ones that are lucky enough to always need each other.   And he can inspire the NPC to try to make the world what he wants to see.  Which is a hallmark of loving.

Even if he isn't the ideal "healthy" thing he might be expected to be ideally, that's not what love is about.  That's perfection, but perfection serves only infatuation, not love.  I'm intensely sick of the "perfect" brooding and inaccessable paragons of male leads in games.  More of this is good.

Health and perfection be damned.  Give me human instead.

[bobsmyuncle]

Recidiva wrote...

Even if he isn't the ideal "healthy" thing he might be expected to be ideally, that's not what love is about.  That's perfection, but perfection serves only infatuation, not love.  I'm intensely sick of the "perfect" brooding and inaccessable paragons of male leads in games.  More of this is good.

Health and perfection be damned.  Give me human instead.

Amen. While sometimes I like to be the super heroine saving kittens and helping grandma cross the street with my wish fulfillment pixel boyfriend, it's tiring when that's the only thing out there.

I kind of like that Alistair is self-absorbed and emotionally stupid. It makes me want to hit him in the head with a shoe. Which is a good thing, honest, because being irritated with a character is a good sign that the writer got you to care about his creation. And Alistair is a good balance of being messed up enough to be a convincing personality rather than being so messed up that your character should probably get away and call the police (I could name a previous Bioware male love interest but I don't want to derail the thread ).

Modifié par bobsmyuncle, 17 décembre 2009 - 01:52 .

[DariusKalera]

I think they actually made him too human, at least, emotionally. Yes, I know that sounds kind of funny, but let me explain.



We can all agree that a a lot of the male characters in the past have been pretty much your standard alpha males. (Sten and Ogren are examples, though technically in the game they are betas) I feel that in order to even out the influences from Sten and Ogren, Bioware tried to make Alistair more of a beta male. To put into simpler terms, he was supposed to be the PC's wingman, if your PC was male. But, the developers actually pushed him into the omega male position because of how he was portrayed. He is, most certainly, the last male in the hierarchy. In all honesty, can anyone actually see Alistair standing up to Sten or Ogren and taking over leadership of the group if the PC died? No, he would let one of them lead.



They wanted someone that was not the typical rpg hero and so he was developed to be as far away from that as possible and so he was over emotionalized.

[Inakhia]

 I love that Alistairs so flawed. In both my endings so far, one as wandering Grey Wardens, the 2nd as married King n Queen. I can easily see Alistair blossoming in a stable relationship, with time to explore and understand and get a little perspective on his life. He obviously had time to accept how Eamon treated him given time, he just needs the same time to get over loosing Duncan and the others. The precedent is there, he just needs some stable down time to process that.
He just needs someone to believe in him and he'll be fine, I think given a few years in a secure relationship, whether romantic or not, with people who care around him, he's quite able to live up to Duncan's memory. Time to grieve and mourn, which he's not really had during the constant battles of the games duration.
...I think an older wiser, less naive, more 'experience' Alistair would be .....unimaginably hawt!

I'm gonnna be over in my tent now.

[Thiefy]

DariusKalera wrote...

I think they actually made him too human, at least, emotionally. Yes, I know that sounds kind of funny, but let me explain.

We can all agree that a a lot of the male characters in the past have been pretty much your standard alpha males. (Sten and Ogren are examples, though technically in the game they are betas) I feel that in order to even out the influences from Sten and Ogren, Bioware tried to make Alistair more of a beta male. To put into simpler terms, he was supposed to be the PC's wingman, if your PC was male. But, the developers actually pushed him into the omega male position because of how he was portrayed. He is, most certainly, the last male in the hierarchy. In all honesty, can anyone actually see Alistair standing up to Sten or Ogren and taking over leadership of the group if the PC died? No, he would let one of them lead.

They wanted someone that was not the typical rpg hero and so he was developed to be as far away from that as possible and so he was over emotionalized.

He takes the position as leader at the gate in denerim. he actually volunteers if you dont choose.

[robertthebard]

Inakhia wrote...

 I love that Alistairs so flawed. In both my endings so far, one as wandering Grey Wardens, the 2nd as married King n Queen. I can easily see Alistair blossoming in a stable relationship, with time to explore and understand and get a little perspective on his life. He obviously had time to accept how Eamon treated him given time, he just needs the same time to get over loosing Duncan and the others. The precedent is there, he just needs some stable down time to process that.
He just needs someone to believe in him and he'll be fine, I think given a few years in a secure relationship, whether romantic or not, with people who care around him, he's quite able to live up to Duncan's memory. Time to grieve and mourn, which he's not really had during the constant battles of the games duration.
...I think an older wiser, less naive, more 'experience' Alistair would be .....unimaginably hawt!

I'm gonnna be over in my tent now.

Hmm, how Eamon treated him?  One has to wonder how long Alistair's mother's amulet was in his desk drawer.  One also has to wonder how many times he brought it with him to the Chantry, only to have temper tantrum Alistair simply drive him away.  I sincerely believe that Eamon had more than "He could be the next king" feelings for Alistair, but Isolde ran Alistair to the Chantry, and Alistair, while eventually figuring that out, laid all the blame on Eamon for the longest time.  Proof that Alistair has more than "He made me live in a stable" feelings for Eamon comes out when you save Connor and Isolde.  So I don't think how Eamon treated Alistair is a fair assessment.  I think the fair assessment is how Alistair treated Eamon, despite all that Eamon tried to do for him, even afer Trophy Wife Jealousy.