329 réponses à ce sujet

[bobsmyuncle]

Inakhia wrote...

 I love that Alistairs so flawed. In both my endings so far, one as wandering Grey Wardens, the 2nd as married King n Queen. I can easily see Alistair blossoming in a stable relationship, with time to explore and understand and get a little perspective on his life. He obviously had time to accept how Eamon treated him given time, he just needs the same time to get over loosing Duncan and the others. The precedent is there, he just needs some stable down time to process that.
He just needs someone to believe in him and he'll be fine, I think given a few years in a secure relationship, whether romantic or not, with people who care around him, he's quite able to live up to Duncan's memory. Time to grieve and mourn, which he's not really had during the constant battles of the games duration.
...I think an older wiser, less naive, more 'experience' Alistair would be .....unimaginably hawt!

I'm gonnna be over in my tent now.

Yeah, I think Alistair with another ten years of being a good Grey Warden and rebuilding the order would have more self-confidence and be less likely to earn shoes thrown at his head.

Honestly, it's true that Alistair was written to do as he's told to. Because you're supposed to keep him around, and guess what, he's not the PC. He does have to do as he's told because that's how RPGs work. Imagine the ****ing there would be if Alistair decided you weren't doing things right so now you had to be HIS sidekick. He gets to pick all the map choices and all the quest resolutions and you have to just follow him and fight when he says so.

I don't think most players would really like it so much if he acted the way they say he should.

[bobsmyuncle]

robertthebard wrote...
Hmm, how Eamon treated him?  One has to wonder how long Alistair's mother's amulet was in his desk drawer.  One also has to wonder how many times he brought it with him to the Chantry, only to have temper tantrum Alistair simply drive him away.  I sincerely believe that Eamon had more than "He could be the next king" feelings for Alistair, but Isolde ran Alistair to the Chantry, and Alistair, while eventually figuring that out, laid all the blame on Eamon for the longest time.  Proof that Alistair has more than "He made me live in a stable" feelings for Eamon comes out when you save Connor and Isolde.  So I don't think how Eamon treated Alistair is a fair assessment.  I think the fair assessment is how Alistair treated Eamon, despite all that Eamon tried to do for him, even afer Trophy Wife Jealousy.

Alistair's temper tantrum-ing self was ten. I don't know if you know many ten-year-olds but let me tell you how emotionally mature they aren't.

Grown-up Alistair realizes that ten-year-old Alistair was a retard. Grown-up Alistair realizes he owes Eamon for trying his best, and grown-up Alistair wants to save both Isolde and Connor despite not really liking Isolde because it would make Eamon happy. Grown-up Alistair is actually rather shamed when you give him the amulet that Eamon glued back together, because he realizes that his younger self did wrong by Eamon, and he wants to make it up to him. Which is partly why he's willing to go along with the whole kingship business, because it's such a big deal to Eamon. I think you're making Alistair out to be a jerk when he isn't (or doesn't mean to be at least).

[Drunkencelt]

Willing to go along with the whole kingship deal except for the fact he never stops complaining about it the whole time. You have to strong arm him at every turn unless you harden him.



Allistar is and always will be, a follower. He is too scared to make the tough choices.

[fantasypisces]

David Gaider wrote...

tigrina wrote...
Ha. While my inner softy totally falls for a fairy tale ending, it is not that what I was hinting at necessarily. It is the lack of being able to talk about stuff which annoys me the most. Let me have my fight with Alistair before or at least just the two of us at the Landsmeet. It is fine if he totally disagrees with me, or wants to dump me or whatever, but give me the option to talk about it (note: not *change*, just talk!). Let me at least see *why* he does what he does, that is fine by me. The string of events without the ability to talk with him or any other of your little party for that matter, that is what is frustrating me the most.

I've seen this brought up a few times before. I don't know if the problem here is one of expectation -- I suppose it's flattering that someone doing the Alistair romance expects that the game should turn into the equivalent of a novel centered on it, but the truth of the matter is that Alistair is already a huge character and by far the biggest in the game. The variations in his development even without the romance were already large. At some point it really does have to be recognized that it's a game and such content is limited -- without making the game entirely about this one single romance I don't think we can provide the kind of involvement that some of the fans seem to expect.

In fact, I'm starting to think that maybe the expectation is the problem. Building up the idea that you can talk to a party member at any time, about almost anything, seems to suddenly give rise to "well why couldn't I talk to them about this? Or this? Or this other thing?" It might be worth considering having romances smaller and leaving more to the imagination -- or building a story entirely around the idea of a single romance. Though I don't think the latter is going to happen anytime soon -- still, listening to people compare said romance to the idea that it *should* have been like that and thus finding it lacking is a bit disconcerting.

Normally I agree with what you say, but this time I cannot.

In one of my playthroughs I saved Loghain and had Alistair executed (granted it wasn't one of my final saves, just getting achievment unlock). When I went to talk to my companions it was as if they didn't bat an eyelash, like nothing even happened, there is no mention of the events.

Erm, I just saved the guy who a lot of us agreed had to die (Sten even says "(hmph) Finally..!" when you pick him as champion. So it is assumed you are going to overthrow/kill Loghain. When you save him that should be a shock to the companions. But the biggest issue... most of them have now been adventuring with Alistair, for what, a whole freaking year now? Being with him almost everyday, camping with him, having him cook their food, then I tell him he needs to be executed and they have no comment?

Yes sometimes players ask for an unreasonable amount of dialogue that might not be psssible. But if Morrigan is willing to comment on "I can't believe they built a tunnel stretching all the way underneath the lake." Zevran commenting on the different contenders  for the Orzammar throne. Shale telling me to squish Connor's head quickly... etc. I think they should, without question, have a comment for me supporting the execution of one of their friends. That was a big complaint of mine.

The other being I wanted a "What would Duncan do" response to Alistair's freak out at the landsmeet. If he still acts childish then proclaim Anora queen and pull out the conversation ending knife, Duncan style. (not something I would ever do, but for someone who claims to worship Duncan and the Grey Wardens, he certainly didn't understand how the work... sort of like "ummm, dude, you can't leave the Wardens, do you want a Ser Jory incident?")

[robertthebard]

bobsmyuncle wrote...

robertthebard wrote...
Hmm, how Eamon treated him?  One has to wonder how long Alistair's mother's amulet was in his desk drawer.  One also has to wonder how many times he brought it with him to the Chantry, only to have temper tantrum Alistair simply drive him away.  I sincerely believe that Eamon had more than "He could be the next king" feelings for Alistair, but Isolde ran Alistair to the Chantry, and Alistair, while eventually figuring that out, laid all the blame on Eamon for the longest time.  Proof that Alistair has more than "He made me live in a stable" feelings for Eamon comes out when you save Connor and Isolde.  So I don't think how Eamon treated Alistair is a fair assessment.  I think the fair assessment is how Alistair treated Eamon, despite all that Eamon tried to do for him, even afer Trophy Wife Jealousy.

Alistair's temper tantrum-ing self was ten. I don't know if you know many ten-year-olds but let me tell you how emotionally mature they aren't.

Grown-up Alistair realizes that ten-year-old Alistair was a retard. Grown-up Alistair realizes he owes Eamon for trying his best, and grown-up Alistair wants to save both Isolde and Connor despite not really liking Isolde because it would make Eamon happy. Grown-up Alistair is actually rather shamed when you give him the amulet that Eamon glued back together, because he realizes that his younger self did wrong by Eamon, and he wants to make it up to him. Which is partly why he's willing to go along with the whole kingship business, because it's such a big deal to Eamon. I think you're making Alistair out to be a jerk when he isn't (or doesn't mean to be at least).

I pointed this out earlier, but there's still a lot of 10 year old Alistair floating around in the present.  Let's start with gifts.  Sten's into art, which is kind of a softy thing to get into, but since he also plays with kittens, and picks flowers, and is like 10 feet tall and armed with a big ass sword, we can overlook that.  Wynne is into old writings, and Morrigan is into gawdy jewelry.  Alistair likes dolls.  Ok, action figures, but really...The soft Alistair that packs his bags and leaves you alone to deal with the blight for saving Loghain, not knowing that Loghain will survive the Joining.  He's sure to take any nice gear he might have acquired since you were thrust into the blight solving too.  He talks about loving being a Grey Warden, and yet the first time things go majorly against him, he tries to become a civilian and runs off.  When you apologize for hurting his manly feeling when you find out about his royal blood, and instead of accepting the apology, he comes off as enough of an ass that picking "Or you could just be an ass" is written into the responses, and if you pick that, he breaks up with you.  Oh, and he doesn't tell you that, he just switches from Adore to Friendly.  Yeah, there's a lot of 10 year old Alistair still in his character.  I suppose if I were a fangirl, I could overlook this stuff.  However, since I'm neither a big fan, nor a girl, it becomes increasingly obvious that he's just immature.

This isn't a flaw with his writing either.  As far as I'm concerned, from where I see him from, he's very well written, and ilicits a response, even if it's not the one a lot of people think it should be.  He wants something he thinks he's never had, but even when he has it, he's not willing to work to keep it, until it's time to kill the Archdemon, and then, it's purely for himself that he'd rather die.  Got that in dialog today when I let him take the final blow.  The best king he can be is dying to stop the blight.  While logical, it's more a cover for "I can't stand to watch somebody else die, so I'm going to make you watch me die".

[Inakhia]

robertthebard wrote...

..-cut-..  Ok, action figures, but really...The soft Alistair that packs his bags and leaves you alone to deal with the blight for saving Loghain, not knowing that Loghain will survive the Joining.  He's sure to take any nice gear he might have acquired since you were thrust into the blight solving too.  He talks about loving being a Grey Warden, and yet the first time things go majorly against him, he tries to become a civilian and runs off.  When you apologize for hurting his manly feeling when you find out about his royal blood, and instead of accepting the apology, he comes off as enough of an ass that picking "Or you could just be an ass" is written into the responses, and if you pick that, he breaks up with you.  Oh, and he doesn't tell you that, he just switches from Adore to Friendly.  Yeah, there's a lot of 10 year old Alistair still in his character.  I suppose if I were a fangirl, I could overlook this stuff.  However, since I'm neither a big fan, nor a girl, it becomes increasingly obvious that he's just immature.

This isn't a flaw with his writing either.  As far as I'm concerned, from where I see him from, he's very well written, and ilicits a response, even if it's not the one a lot of people think it should be.  He wants something he thinks he's never had, but even when he has it, he's not willing to work to keep it, until it's time to kill the Archdemon, and then, it's purely for himself that he'd rather die.  Got that in dialog today when I let him take the final blow.  The best king he can be is dying to stop the blight.  While logical, it's more a cover for "I can't stand to watch somebody else die, so I'm going to make you watch me die".

...Not arguing he's immature in some respects. Kinda the point, since he's had the least supportive upbringing you can get, short of physical abuse. Of course he's afraid of responsiblity, he's been told what he's going to do all his life. Defined by his blood relationship with a man he's never known and told he'll never get to know him or be a part of that life. Neither noble or commoner, just the unwanted bastard son of the King. He's probably been encouraged not to seek responsibility, because being too competant at something might give him idea's he's good for more than taking orders as a Templar. 
I'm also damn certain the Chantry would have done their best to raise him up as best they can to keep their hooks into such a potentially useful tool. Look how easily the revered mother waylays him into pissing of the mages at Ostagar.
But his actions at the Landsmeet are explainable considering his background and hero worship of the Grey Wardens and his loathing of Loghain. A little more extreme than I'd want, but understandable. Annoying, hell yes.
And of course considering his abandonment issues, couple with Chantry teachings, heat of the moment and feelings for your PC- given the choice he is going to get himself killed.

That doesn't mean that if you harden his up and let him live, he wont be a good king under the right conditions. Conditions that aren't *that* hard to come by.  I tend to think before Ostagar, Alistair would have been even more annoying. Duncan had him for possibly up to a year, and made a big difference in his maturity. Then Ostagar happens, Duncan and the rest of the Wardens die and in his grief, Alistair promptly regresses a few years in emotional maturity and competence.

....Hehehe. I can so fanwank this all day. :innocent:

Modifié par Inakhia, 17 décembre 2009 - 06:41 .

[sagefic]

@ Inakhia.



he's been a warden for 6 mo. he tells you this at some pt. so yeah, i agree with you. i would add that i think he's more in love with the idea of the grey wardens than what they actually are (which is some pretty bad mofos who deal in nasty realities).



in that respect, he and his brother have a lot in common

[Lotion Soronarr]

robertthebard wrote...

I pointed this out earlier, but there's still a lot of 10 year old Alistair floating around in the present.  Let's start with gifts.  Sten's into art, which is kind of a softy thing to get into, but since he also plays with kittens, and picks flowers, and is like 10 feet tall and armed with a big ass sword, we can overlook that.  Wynne is into old writings, and Morrigan is into gawdy jewelry.  Alistair likes dolls.  Ok, action figures, but really...

And that proves what exactly? Peopel in rea llife collect and like all sorts of things. Alistair is int mystical and magical stuff. Old mysterious figurines and runes. He likes to colelct them.
And you claim that somehow makes him childish? Pffft.

[bobsmyuncle]

Inakhia wrote...
....Hehehe. I can so fanwank this all day. :innocent:

*fanwank tag team high five*

robertthebard : I really don't care enough about what random people think of a video game character to keep up my end of the argument.  I could defend Alistair's decision to leave the Wardens over Loghain's recruitment, but since you've pre-emptively written me off as a) unthinking, and only taking up his defense because I'm female, I won't bother. Thanks for the advance notice, I suppose.

Why does Sten's love for art have to be "overlooked?" Is it girly to like art? Does it make Sten less awesome or manly to like art, cookies, kittens and flowers? Your post strongly implies that the answer to these questions is "yes," in which case I really have no further comments for you.

In parting, I'm just going to say that if you think grown men playing with action figures is childish, GTFO. I would SO be right there with a dragon toy playing Archdemon vs. Alistair's Grey Warden figurine army.

[Vormaerin]

Mary Kirby wrote...

You think it's metagaming to leave Alistair behind so he doesn't die, but you don't think it's metagaming to assume that you will have some option to decide, in the heat of battle, while you and who knows how many allies are attacking a dragon, who will strike the final blow?  If you bring him to the archdemon, who's to say that one stray sword swing doesn't cost you Alistair, anyway?

Err.... what?  I thought I distinctly said that the whole choosing scene was implausible.  In my play throughs, I've never had both wardens still standing at the end of the fight, so it was never an issue in character. 

You put the conversation in there, presumably because you felt that having the final blow be decided by actual game play or some other random determinant was a bad idea.   Then, in one particular situation (and ONLY that one situation) you rig the conversation.   The PC, in fact, gets that implausible decision making power in every case except if they romanced Alistair.

I'm not saying that its bad character design or anything.   Alistair is the irresponsible sort who would take the easy way out like that and leave everyone else to pick up the tab.   I'm just saying I can understand why it infuriates some folks that you lose an element of agency by being 'the girlfriend', when you would otherwise have it.

Modifié par Vormaerin, 17 décembre 2009 - 10:20 .

[sjrskl]

the thing that bothers me the most about this thread is that everybody seems to think everybody can be mature while i believe noone can ever truely be mature in every sense and what is mature aren't we all just people with more experience with age?

i find it hard to see Alistair do anything else than sacrifice himself when he's with you in the end battle that's just how he was brought up and if he's a romance it's even more obvious why he would want to save you.

i found all the characters in this game incredibly well written especially because of the flaws (like oghren half drinking himself to death every chance he gets).

also in the final battle who would really even have the courage to sacrifice him/herslef for another i don't believe i could really muster that much courage (wouldn't know about when a loved one is nearby).

the thing that had me most in this game is that even as a guy i really cared that Alistair din't die a sad ending he was like my wingman as a guy and the kind of knight in shining armor when playing a female char (mayby a bit to emotional but i can at least relate to that:P) it's weird this is the only game i ever found worth trying to defend online normaly i realy don't care enough about the story to even look at forums or anything.

i especialy would like to thank recidiva for making most threads worth reading and David Gaidar for this amazing story (but i'm getting side-tracked:P).



so my point is give Alistair a break he has had a tough life and is emotionaly scared by the experience (yeah fanboi i know but hell what can i do).

[Cybercat999]

Recidiva wrote...

Cybercat999 wrote...

Yes, you are probably right, some people have zero empathy too.
But then I cant but ask myself how "healthy" a relationship with someone like that can be for anyone capable of that comparision and empathy. You are doomed to get hurt pretty badly and I am not sure that him not even knowing why or how makes it any better.

I mean not everyone that didnt have their leg cut off cant understand that hitting your big toe isnt comparable. Bit exaggerating but you get my point.

And that's the thing.  There's a difference between someone who is a liar and someone who is fooling themselves first and then passing it along.  It takes a lot of experience to tell the difference, and in a game there just aren't the signals you'd get in reality to do that sort of in-depth analysis of a person.

Alistair is a character that's written with the range to be everything from a town drunk to the best king in history. 
So he doesn't lack for potential.

Love isn't about health so much as it's about need.  And he needs you a LOT.  Needs to believe in some beauty or connection to something that's real.  Something to fight for.  If it's imperfect, that doesn't mean it's not real.  Maybe the people that always love each other are the ones that are lucky enough to always need each other.   And he can inspire the NPC to try to make the world what he wants to see.  Which is a hallmark of loving.

Even if he isn't the ideal "healthy" thing he might be expected to be ideally, that's not what love is about.  That's perfection, but perfection serves only infatuation, not love.  I'm intensely sick of the "perfect" brooding and inaccessable paragons of male leads in games.  More of this is good.

Health and perfection be damned.  Give me human instead.

I actually think that what Alistair needs is Mommy - the kind of uncoditional love and care that doesnt have to be reciprocated. Because I can just see him failing miserably the first time *you* need him.
And yes, its very real, there are plenty of guys out there in real world that "love" someone as long as they get unconditional motherly love. And there are enough women that cater and admire such type. Imo the problem starts first time the female is not ready to understand/pamper/soothe/devote all her time to him for whatever reason.

For me a tiny bit TOO imperfect.

[Recidiva]

Vormaerin wrote...

Err.... what?  I thought I distinctly said that the whole choosing scene was implausible.  In my play throughs, I've never had both wardens still standing at the end of the fight, so it was never an issue in character. 

You put the conversation in there, presumably because you felt that having the final blow be decided by actual game play or some other random determinant was a bad idea.   Then, in one particular situation (and ONLY that one situation) you rig the conversation.   The PC, in fact, gets that implausible decision making power in every case except if they romanced Alistair.

I'm not saying that its bad character design or anything.   Alistair is the irresponsible sort who would take the easy way out like that and leave everyone else to pick up the tab.   I'm just saying I can understand why it infuriates some folks that you lose an element of agency by being 'the girlfriend', when you would otherwise have it.

Right.  If it's a story...then sure.  I don't complain about Spock sacrificing himself to save the ship.  Okay.  I cry, I hum along with the bagpipes.  Awww...Spoooock!

However, it is a game.  Once I chose to have a romance, which is in fact one of the best features of the game, I lose the opportunity to choose my own fate.  And I'm not asking for a happy ending, I'm asking for the opportunity to die.  Not only that, but soooo many conversation options at the end.  At least if Morrigan leaves, it's done.  You don't get a choice.  The game makes it look like you have a choice and there's actually quite a bit of information in that final conversation tree that makes it look like perhaps you could do something.  The game writers aren't "unaware" that a woman might want to do this, because you in fact get the opportunity to tell Alistair "no" about three times in a row before it's out of your hands.  Including "This is crazy!"  

Then I start asking around...and it really does come down to people's conclusions that Alistair simply was capable of more love.  Because he's a guy.  Because I'm just a girl gamer who should be thrilled the white knight went off and slayed a dragon in my honor.  Whether or not that's intended at all, that's the impression it gives.  I accept that it wasn't intended, and I'm not arguing that.  It's just an unfortunate confluence of events that may look romantic but ends up being ultimately insulting - to me - when put into social context and the fact that I'm the game player.  It's not a compliment.  "What do you mean you don't want Alistair to kill himself for you?  Isn't that what every woman wants?  How selfish!"  

Alistair overshadows me.  And it's really not Alistair's game.  It's mine.  And I know I was told it's not intended to validate me.  But isn't it?  Kinda?  As it's a game I'm playing?  And if not, why completely INvalidate me?  What's the point to a gamer to do that?  Yeah, it's dark and I'm expected to make sacrifices, but isn't suicide dark enough?  Then it's questioned whether or not I really wanted that choice, because I'm obviously not really that courageous.  There's really no way to justify it other than to say that ultimately Alistair is both more loving and more dedicated than I am, and stronger and faster.  Invalidates my whole process of being the one to choose and the one to make the choices for the entire game.  Alistair ultimately overshadows the PC and as a gamer, it's hard to stomach having him be the number two for the whole game and then suddenly be the hero.  Not because of love, but because of being a girl.

It's worse than going up to the rooftop and being unable to kill the Archdemon no matter how you try.  There are game mechanics and expectations put into place, and they end up penalizing a player that chooses to immerse, or to care.  I doubt that people play games to experience a sense of powerlessness or being entirely overshadowed by uncontrollable forces or entirely screwed over by someone who theoretically cares for you.   For that all you gotta do is just live life.  There's a limit to how satisfying a game is when it's "lifelike" with destructive social conceits intact.

Yes, I'm aware I might be an unusual person and the game was not written for me.  I get that.  On the off chance I'm not that unusual, can't hurt to put it out there.  I don't think it would have harmed the game to put the choice in, and could have made for a much more satisfying play for certain personality types.  

[Recidiva]

Cybercat999 wrote...

I actually think that what Alistair needs is Mommy - the kind of uncoditional love and care that doesnt have to be reciprocated. Because I can just see him failing miserably the first time *you* need him.
And yes, its very real, there are plenty of guys out there in real world that "love" someone as long as they get unconditional motherly love. And there are enough women that cater and admire such type. Imo the problem starts first time the female is not ready to understand/pamper/soothe/devote all her time to him for whatever reason.

For me a tiny bit TOO imperfect.

I have a son with Asperger's syndrome.  Alistair is certainly higher functioning, but I have a depth of love for the socially awkward.

[Xaltar81]

I loved the dialogue progression for Alistair. He is perhaps the most realistic character I have ever seen portrayed in an interactive medium. My wife and I have explored both the male and female interactions with Alistair and I fail to see where so much complaint could have legitimately risen from here. Alistair is meant to be a supporting character, not the PC, and as such NEEDED to be written in such a way as to not detract from the players thunder. Most games fail abysmaly at writing characters like this, making the NPC flawed in some fundamentaly stupid way that makes no sense. This results in unrealistic characters that are uninteresting and serve little purpose other than being the "tank"/"rogue" etc of the party. I have seen numerous posts by people on these baords talking about Alistair as though he were a flesh and blood person, that is not a thing easily atchieved. The reason there are so many complaints about the lack of this or that dialogue at various points in the game is not because of poor writing but rather because the character was written brilliantly, brilliantly enough that the player felt that they could not fill in the blanks for themselves in those moments and wanted the game (writer) to fill them in. This can only happen when a player connects with an NPC that they themselves can not completely identify with. This tells me that the writer did their job well. It leaves you wanting more purely because it is written well enough to fool you into thinking there could be more to have.

Mad props to David Gaider for actually being brave enough to come in here and reply to all the wolves hungering for more

Modifié par Xaltar81, 17 décembre 2009 - 02:13 .

[EddieRivers]

Been reading this thread for a while (there are a lot of interesting posts here), and I find my self in need of sharing my thoughts.

Regarding the fact that Alistair is actually "in love" with the Wardens and not the PC; am I the only one who finds this immensly refreshing? Alistair, and all the love interests in DA:O in fact, have lifes and opinions outside the romance. This is a personal pet-peeve of mine, you see; I hate it when a character in a book, movie, game, whatever, is defined entirely by the person they're in love with. Very often, people who want to write something romantic give the character in love absolutely nothing else s/he finds important but the love interest. They have no life, no ambitions, no nothing, outside of this infatuation. I suppose a lot of people find this romantic, in a sense that they are giving up everything for the person they love; personally, I find it disturbing. Love is a strong feeling, yes, but there are other things that are important too; dreams and hopes and ideals and so on. I, for one, would never give up those no matter how much I loved someone.

So, when you cannot make the characters you've romanced do something "just because they love you" that doesn't necissarily mean they *don't* love you. It means they are more than their love for the PC. Alistair is in love with the idea of the Wardens, yes, becuse that's what he has chosen to identify himself with. The thing is, the characters, even after they fall in love with the PC, don't spend every moment occupied with them. And I, for one, am glad that there is no "power of love" moment with either Alistair or Morrigan in the game -- you can't force Alistair to give up his identity for you, you can't force Morrigan to give up her plans/goals/ambitions, just like Leliana leaves you if you decide to stettle down, and Zevran if you don't. Just like no man could force me to, for example, give up my education to get married. It's just not going to happen. I wouldn't be able to live with myself.

I also think that for a character like Alistair to put duty infront of love, whether it's an imagined one to the Wardens or a real one to the throne, feels very true. Wynne says that love is ultimately selfish, which Alistair certainly believes in. And he's been raised to be unselfish, always being told that "there is no place for you to start anything", to an extent that he is self decapitating. I know this syndrom myself; if something doesn't work, it wasn't meant to be; you didn't deserve it. You accept defeat before you've even begun to fight, becuse you don't see it as a defeat, you see it as the way the world works. I do think his love for the PC is real enough though, and more real than the love for the Wardens, which I would classify more as an idealised self image or his base morality. Like Leliana's faith, maybe. If you bring her when you defile the ashes, she turns on you, approval rating no matter. (However, this might be an unfair comparison, since there are way better reasons to spare Loghain than to defile the ashes.) Is Leliana more in love with the Maker than the PC? Oh YES. Morrigan is probaly mostly in love with herself, although it's hard to tell since we know so little about her motivations. Zevran... Zevran is probably the one who most closely follows the classical romance, where you become everything, but that is mostly because he didn't have anything to believe in before you came along. You become his Duncan, sort of?

I actually think that what Alistair needs is Mommy - the kind of uncoditional love and care that doesnt have to be reciprocated. Because I can just see him failing miserably the first time *you* need him."

This however is probably true (which ties in wonderfully to my PC, but that's not the question.) He wants *family*, and tries to make you both his mother, sister and lover. When the *duty* part of his personality hits that, things fall to pieces.
However, I'd like to know when, in your opinion, that the PC needs him for the first time. For my PC, that was probably when they got back to Denerim for the first time to find the Alienage closed. Which, sadly enough, didn't merit a reaction from ANYONE. All I got was a "The Alienage is closed. Please be on your way." I blame this on it being a game and not real life. I'm sure the characters reacted to that, it just wasn't put into the game. Just as I thought Alistair's line "Oh... I forgot about that," in response to the human PC was mostly an attempt to squeeze all origins into one dialoge tree. I got the same odd thing in the city elf origin; when you finally do get into the Alienage, Alistair is shocked to find out the PC was bethrothed. Right... we traveled together for what, 1½ years at the least, are lovers, and you don't know that? I can come up with a thousand reason for my PC not to have told him, but the truth is that she would have. The truth is that to have that conversation in the game itself would have required money and time, and well... it isn't a dating sim. I can fill in the missing conversations myself.

Edit: Oh right. I get it now. You were refering to a future situation, right?

I obviously had a lot to say about this. I hope some of it made sense.

[ReubenLiew]

So Alistair really just wants wincest?



Thats,,, beyond eww?

[Kohaku]

ReubenLiew wrote...

So Alistair really just wants wincest?

Thats,,, beyond eww?

It's seeming that way.

Nothing against you girls in the least.

[robertthebard]

bobsmyuncle wrote...

Inakhia wrote...
....Hehehe. I can so fanwank this all day. :innocent:

*fanwank tag team high five*

robertthebard : I really don't care enough about what random people think of a video game character to keep up my end of the argument.  I could defend Alistair's decision to leave the Wardens over Loghain's recruitment, but since you've pre-emptively written me off as a) unthinking, and only taking up his defense because I'm female, I won't bother. Thanks for the advance notice, I suppose.

I have neither written anyone off as unthinking, or for simply being a girl.  I have said that a fangirl could overlook the flaws I mentioned in Alistair's character as cute, or something.  While for myself, I could not write them off.  I cannot justify leaving everything that he claims to love behind because I spared Loghain.  I can, however, certainly rationalize it.  I have, however, stated the reason why I feel that he, as a romance interest, will not let the PC take the killing blow, and it has more to do with Ostagar than loving the PC.  Never have I said that he's not a good character, as I believe that he is, but I do believe that he is childish, and just because we can point and say, "Well no wonder he's childish" doesn't mean that I should change my view.

Why does Sten's love for art have to be "overlooked?" Is it girly to like art? Does it make Sten less awesome or manly to like art, cookies, kittens and flowers? Your post strongly implies that the answer to these questions is "yes," in which case I really have no further comments for you.

As I consider myself a manly man, and my friends do to, will you be surprised to know that I play with kittens, or that I do have an appreciation of art?  Would you be surprised to know that my user name actually comes from my real life?  Yes, I was a performer at Renaissance Faires.  While I love a good heavy metal riff, I play a lot of classical and folk music.  As to why Sten's hobbies can be overlooked, did I mention 10 feet tall and armed with a big ass sword?  Leliana calls him on his hobbies, and one conversation ends with "I hate humans".  Sten is also the only party member that will challenge you for lead of the party, if he feels you're wasting too much time.  In other words, his hobbies don't ultimately reflect his personality, which is not the case for Alistair.  He wants the dolls because he can control them, and no matter what he does with them, they won't die.

In parting, I'm just going to say that if you think grown men playing with action figures is childish, GTFO. I would SO be right there with a dragon toy playing Archdemon vs. Alistair's Grey Warden figurine army.

I collect Hot Wheels cars.  I don't play with 'em, as they are still in their packaging, but I do collect them.  I also collect knives and swords, some of which I "arm" myself with when I go to the Faires.  However, in an emergency situation, my friends don't think I'll go curl up in the corner with my Hot Wheels.  This is, however, what I would see Alistair doing.  Ever wonder why he's always crouched down in camp?

Perhaps you feel like I'm on the case of Alistair fans/fangirls?  This is not the case, and I can totally see why some might find specific aspects of his personality appealing.  However, this does not mean that I should have to either be silent about what I think, or buy in to them.  The fact that people can find all of this in a character, or even look for it to find, screams about how well these characters are written.  I could only hope that had I ever finished the novel I started that people would fall in love, whether they like the character or not, with what I had written.

[Cybercat999]

Recidiva wrote...

Cybercat999 wrote...

I actually think that what Alistair needs is Mommy - the kind of uncoditional love and care that doesnt have to be reciprocated. Because I can just see him failing miserably the first time *you* need him.
And yes, its very real, there are plenty of guys out there in real world that "love" someone as long as they get unconditional motherly love. And there are enough women that cater and admire such type. Imo the problem starts first time the female is not ready to understand/pamper/soothe/devote all her time to him for whatever reason.

For me a tiny bit TOO imperfect.

I have a son with Asperger's syndrome.  Alistair is certainly higher functioning, but I have a depth of love for the socially awkward.

I am sorry about your son. I have children too, and I love them just in that unconditional way, no matter what they do or say they are always my children and I am always there to help, soothe, pamper, understand, be whatever they need me to be.
But..... I do not feel the same kind of love for my husband and I dont think I am the kind of person capable of giving such love to grown up man who is supposed to be my equal and even support in some cases. My man is not my son and though I might be able to act like he is in very rare cases, I dont really want to see him as such.

[Cybercat999]

EddieRivers wrote...

However, I'd like to know when, in your opinion, that the PC needs him for the first time. For my PC, that was probably when they got back to Denerim for the first time to find the Alienage closed. Which, sadly enough, didn't merit a reaction from ANYONE. All I got was a "The Alienage is closed. Please be on your way." I blame this on it being a game and not real life. I'm sure the characters reacted to that, it just wasn't put into the game. Just as I thought Alistair's line "Oh... I forgot about that," in response to the human PC was mostly an attempt to squeeze all origins into one dialoge tree. I got the same odd thing in the city elf origin; when you finally do get into the Alienage, Alistair is shocked to find out the PC was bethrothed. Right... we traveled together for what, 1½ years at the least, are lovers, and you don't know that? I can come up with a thousand reason for my PC not to have told him, but the truth is that she would have. The truth is that to have that conversation in the game itself would have required money and time, and well... it isn't a dating sim. I can fill in the missing conversations myself.

Yes, its him acting totally oblivious about some part of your life. Sure you dont have to have ALL conversational options to make some things pretty clear? I would hope they actually talked at least after that "tent" scene and told each other few things.

So apart the fact that he talks about Duncan all the time and never asks about my family (I am viewing things from human noble aspect since that is the only origin where you can get a "proper" romance with marriage in the end), apart the fact that he forgots all about my personal loss and sorrow...... there is that one moment that irks me out too....

You know how you have convos with other AIs but your companions pop in if there is something bothering them. Like when you say to Arl Eamon that Alistair would be a horrible king, Alistair hops into convo with "hey I am standing right here".

There is a talk with Howe just before the fight where in one option you can get a very nasty response from him. He tells you that your Mother kissed his feet just before he killed her. Honestly, it made my blood boil irl to read that. And though Alistair is standing right beside you there is absolutely no comment on that.
Surely he doesnt have to have his own Mother killed basically in front of his eyes to understand that something like that HURTS really badly? I would expect him to say at least *something* if someone is hurting the girl he loves in front of him.
After all, he can make comments when you discuss his sex capability with Leliana. Then why a silence at such horrible moment? I would imagine that would be the moment when I would actually *need* him to comfort me for once.

Yes, you can all say its bad writing and such, but I do think its pretty bad slip either from story writers or his personality as was meant to be.

Modifié par Cybercat999, 17 décembre 2009 - 04:25 .

[Recidiva]

Cybercat999 wrote...

I am sorry about your son. I have children too, and I love them just in that unconditional way, no matter what they do or say they are always my children and I am always there to help, soothe, pamper, understand, be whatever they need me to be.

But..... I do not feel the same kind of love for my husband and I dont think I am the kind of person capable of giving such love to grown up man who is supposed to be my equal and even support in some cases. My man is not my son and though I might be able to act like he is in very rare cases, I dont really want to see him as such.

My son and husband don't compare, but there's a combo quality here.  The fact that Alistair has elements in turns of my husband and my son doesn't make it harder to love the character.

Husband:  Humor.  Principles.  Voice.  Shoulders.  (This you all see up front at Ostagar)  "It'd have to be a pretty dress" is the end of it for me anyway.

Story progresses and son elements enter in....

Son:  Oh hell, you don't really understand any of this do you, but you're...you're adorable.  And you definitely need protecting from the world.

And ultimately it comes down to - "I can't live with this if I drag you this far and I am the death of you."

The quality of "love" has all the potential to shift from exploring a mate to getting hit in the solar plexus with someone barreling forward into something they do not get at all and feeling responsible.  So in the end, I'm not really saving my husband, I'm saving my son.  It's a deadly combo for me specifically for that reason. 

There's no question that's not my husband by the end of the game or any version of mate.  That doesn't mean I've ceased caring.  I felt doubly responsible for every choice because he's just...not...able to consent legally to almost anything.  Despite the humor, principles, voice or shoulders.  I'm aware I dragged a man-child through hell and protected him from most of the worst of it.

It's about like reading a Superman comic to my son and having him think he should jump off the roof because he thinks I want him to be Superman.

Being able to remind me of two of the people I love most in the world...powerful thing.

Actually my daughter reminds me more of Duncan, which is why I don't worry about her in the least.  I didn't have to save her at all.

It's not so much about the worthiness of the character, it's the combo elements of reminding me of people I already love.

Modifié par Recidiva, 17 décembre 2009 - 04:40 .

[Estelindis]

I'd like to know when, in your opinion, that the PC needs him for the first time. For my PC, that was probably when they got back to Denerim for the first time to find the Alienage closed. Which, sadly enough, didn't merit a reaction from ANYONE. All I got was a "The Alienage is closed. Please be on your way." I blame this on it being a game and not real life. I'm sure the characters reacted to that, it just wasn't put into the game. Just as I thought Alistair's line "Oh... I forgot about that," in response to the human PC was mostly an attempt to squeeze all origins into one dialoge tree. I got the same odd thing in the city elf origin; when you finally do get into the Alienage, Alistair is shocked to find out the PC was bethrothed. Right... we traveled together for what, 1½ years at the least, are lovers, and you don't know that? I can come up with a thousand reason for my PC not to have told him, but the truth is that she would have. The truth is that to have that conversation in the game itself would have required money and time, and well... it isn't a dating sim. I can fill in the missing conversations myself.

Well said.  I agree with everything in your post, but this especially.  I felt the party's lack of response to the closure of the alienage quite deeply.  Similarly the lack of an option to balk when the City Elf PC is first offered the Rescue the Queen mission (even something understated like the option to say "I'm... already familiar with the Arl of Denerim's estate")...  But, as you say, it is a game with limited resources.  I'd like everything to be more complex and one's background to come more into play in a number of situations, but I can fill in the blanks myself - and the fact that the game *makes* me want to do that is fairly impressive in its own way.

Modifié par Estelindis, 19 décembre 2009 - 01:45 .

[Emerald Melios]

EddieRivers wrote...
This however is probably true (which ties in wonderfully to my PC, but that's not the question.) He wants *family*, and tries to make you both his mother, sister and lover. When the *duty* part of his personality hits that, things fall to pieces.
However, I'd like to know when, in your opinion, that the PC needs him for the first time. For my PC, that was probably when they got back to Denerim for the first time to find the Alienage closed. Which, sadly enough, didn't merit a reaction from ANYONE. All I got was a "The Alienage is closed. Please be on your way." I blame this on it being a game and not real life. I'm sure the characters reacted to that, it just wasn't put into the game. Just as I thought Alistair's line "Oh... I forgot about that," in response to the human PC was mostly an attempt to squeeze all origins into one dialoge tree. I got the same odd thing in the city elf origin; when you finally do get into the Alienage, Alistair is shocked to find out the PC was bethrothed. Right... we traveled together for what, 1½ years at the least, are lovers, and you don't know that? I can come up with a thousand reason for my PC not to have told him, but the truth is that she would have. The truth is that to have that conversation in the game itself would have required money and time, and well... it isn't a dating sim. I can fill in the missing conversations myself.

I agree, it bothered me that you never got the chance to discuss the events that led to Duncan recruiting you. Especially since you can ask Alistair about how he got recruited right after leaving Flemeth's hut. Not even Leliana's alienage conversation at camp touched on the events that led to the riot and your conscription.