329 réponses à ce sujet

[Ravauviel]

I must be the only one who thankfully doesn't see either Xander or Malcolm in Alistair, disliked both of them. Also, it's not that Alistair didn't want to be king, his vehemence simply disguised his insecurity - understandable because of his background and history. I don't remember him throwing a tantrum when my female human noble made him king, he accepted it because my PC tries to reify his self-concept and believed in his ability to lead despite his flimsy protestations to the contrary. 

Modifié par Ravauviel, 14 décembre 2009 - 02:18 .

[mousestalker]

Recidiva wrote...

Cybercat999 wrote...

I dont know if any of you romanced unhardened Alistair. I tried once. When I asked him after "tent scene" (he initiated it and I even let him persuade my PC for a bit) where he sees us going after that, he basically said "duty and honor come first and will probably screw us up". If that is not the "I am warning you in front about dumping you" excuse, then I never heard one.
And then, when his duty lies clearly in becoming and staying the king for the best of his people, he suddenly decides to drop all that and goes to get himself killed over me.
Now I dont know if its just me but the only thing I see in that kind of action is actually Alistair getting the easy way out of his problems.

Right.  In a game where you're given lots of creative opportunities to sidestep character weaknesses, this one is a fish slap to the face.

"Yes, I let you drive the bus the whole way, but now I'm grabbing the wheel and driving us straight over a cliff."

My character was desperately looking around for Shianni's bottle at that point.

[Recidiva]

Ravauviel wrote...

I must be the only one who thankfully doesn't see either Xander or Malcolm in Alistair, disliked both of them. Also, it's not that Alistair didn't want to be king, his vehemence simply disguised his insecurity - understandable because of his background and history. I don't remember him throwing a tantrum when my female human noble made him king, he accepted it because my PC tries to reify his self-concept and believed in his ability to lead despite his flimsy protestations to the contrary. 

The full tantrum doesn't happen unless you spare Loghain AND make him King.

All of which are entirely in keeping with his hero's (Duncan's) methods.  So even if you listen to him carefully about his hero worship of Duncan and his defense of Duncan...hell, Duncan killed Ser Jory.  Not a blink from Alistair.  Nada.  So killing people in cold blood and making them drink darkspawn blood - good.  Becoming King, sparing his life and making sure Ferelden has a good leader well...that's just unforgivable.

You'd think, (well, I thought anyway) with that mindset and that experience, Alistair would realize that sometimes leaders do things that the followers don't like.  Sparing Loghain and making Alistair King are entirely Duncanesque things.  Alistair however is busy complaining about how Anora reminds him of Loghain and how I honored Loghain and oh for cryin'...no win here.  I get it.

So I'm giving Ferelden it's "Golden Age" couple, not taking the romance for myself, making sure Loghain takes the final dive, and I get tantrum.

Even at the end of the game, his final "meet the public" speech is disgustingly sarcastic.  "Adoring public" said with acid.

Oh, go to hell, Alistair.  Ass.

[SarEnyaDor]

Ravauviel wrote...

I must be the only one who thankfully doesn't see either Xander or Malcolm in Alistair, disliked both of them. Also, it's not that Alistair didn't want to be king, his vehemence simply disguised his insecurity - understandable because of his background and history. I don't remember him throwing a tantrum when my female human noble made him king, he accepted it because my PC tries to reify his self-concept and believed in his ability to lead despite his flimsy protestations to the contrary. 

Well, he behaves really differently depending on who you are and how you play. On my human noble (unhardened) he seemed really okay with it and pleased about marrying me and becoming king, on my city elf he was POed at me.  Also, depending on how Anora acted, he will react differently, too.

There is alot of variation in Alistair, everytime I think I've heard it all, I get new dialogue. today I heard him tell my dog that the dog's part in ending the blight was probably the most important because he was sworn to protect the most important person in the world... And I was so determined NOT to romance him this time around, too.

[Cybercat999]

Recidiva wrote...

Cybercat999 wrote...

I dont know if any of you romanced unhardened Alistair. I tried once. When I asked him after "tent scene" (he initiated it and I even let him persuade my PC for a bit) where he sees us going after that, he basically said "duty and honor come first and will probably screw us up". If that is not the "I am warning you in front about dumping you" excuse, then I never heard one.
And then, when his duty lies clearly in becoming and staying the king for the best of his people, he suddenly decides to drop all that and goes to get himself killed over me.
Now I dont know if its just me but the only thing I see in that kind of action is actually Alistair getting the easy way out of his problems.

Right.  In a game where you're given lots of creative opportunities to sidestep character weaknesses, this one is a fish slap to the face.

"Yes, I let you drive the bus the whole way, but now I'm grabbing the wheel and driving us straight over a cliff."

Hahaha exactly. I am glad its not just me seeing it that way <3

[Cybercat999]

Ok, I finally managed to "break up" with Alistair (cant say how it can be since we never really had anything going on but nvm) and get approval. I picked the "I am sorry it came to that" and "Thank you for understanding" options and voila Alistair approves +2

[Recidiva]

Cybercat999 wrote...

Ok, I finally managed to "break up" with Alistair (cant say how it can be since we never really had anything going on but nvm) and get approval. I picked the "I am sorry it came to that" and "Thank you for understanding" options and voila Alistair approves +2

My last playthrough I did everything to avoid romance with Alistair, and still had to reset about seven times when I suddenly discovered we were inexplicably "a thing."

It's ridiculous how many innocuous ways there are of starting a romance with him. 

On hindsight, it's nearly impossible to be kind to him and NOT start a romance.  Apparently you have to kick him in the codpiece repeatedly and somehow manage to hold onto your approval rating.

All I wanted was a hardened King I could persuade, and I kept getting roses.  No!  No rose!  Dammit.  To get him to the confirmation point where he says he's going to look out for himself his rating has to be in the 80s.  Getting there is fraught with romantic peril.  "No, I just said you were special, I didn't say "Let's do it.""  There needs to be a "disable romance permanently" option.  Alistair's impossible if you're a female PC, without being outright rude to him.

[DariusKalera]

mousestalker wrote...

Maybe Alistair is more like Wash? A Wash looking for his Zoe.

On an unrelated note, what this game really needs is Jayne. Zevran is the closest character that comes to him, but ......

He is definetly more like Wash.  All the way down to playing with dinosaur toys, or their Fereldan equivalent.

Ser Cauthrien would be cool as a Jayne.

[Kohaku]

Recidiva wrote...

Cybercat999 wrote...

Ok, I finally managed to "break up" with Alistair (cant say how it can be since we never really had anything going on but nvm) and get approval. I picked the "I am sorry it came to that" and "Thank you for understanding" options and voila Alistair approves +2

My last playthrough I did everything to avoid romance with Alistair, and still had to reset about seven times when I suddenly discovered we were inexplicably "a thing."

It's ridiculous how many innocuous ways there are of starting a romance with him. 

On hindsight, it's nearly impossible to be kind to him and NOT start a romance.  Apparently you have to kick him in the codpiece repeatedly and somehow manage to hold onto your approval rating.

All I wanted was a hardened King I could persuade, and I kept getting roses.  No!  No rose!  Dammit.  To get him to the confirmation point where he says he's going to look out for himself his rating has to be in the 80s.  Getting there is fraught with romantic peril.  "No, I just said you were special, I didn't say "Let's do it.""  There needs to be a "disable romance permanently" option.  Alistair's impossible if you're a female PC, without being outright rude to him.

I haven't tried just being friends with him. You are right however. Just being nice to him means you to are going to be together forever, figuratively. I'm thinking of dropping my whole Alistair Story. It started to get fractured into four different stories and just messy. He's a flakey man.

Modifié par Kerridan Kaiba, 14 décembre 2009 - 03:34 .

[SarEnyaDor]

Don't talk to him at all, just complete quests like he likes and spam him with gifts to get his approval up and don't iniate any conversations.

[Lucy Glitter]

Alistair's original concept was very similar to Mal Reynolds. Case closed.

[Recidiva]

SarEnyaDor wrote...

Don't talk to him at all, just complete quests like he likes and spam him with gifts to get his approval up and don't iniate any conversations.

You  have to talk to him for his personal quest and to get to the confirmation of the personal quest hardening, and also when you give him the amulet and the shield.

There's four chances to initiate romance right there.

I really did my best to avoid him, and I was surprised at how many times he shows up anyway.  I left him in camp and there he is telling me about his parentage on the way to Redcliffe.  I left him at camp and there he is interjecting himself into the conversation about the crown at Arl Eamon's.

He's really the only NPC that interjects himself into the plot so many times.  The only other character that does that is Zev in his own personal quest.

But there are Alistair plot mines everywhere.

Not talking to him also eliminates a huge opportunity to gain lots of approval that I need to get him to 80 by Landsmeet if I haven't taken him out to get approval from quests.

I  really did have to reset many times because of picking what I thought was a neutral choice, considering so many of the other options involve insulting him or calling him an idiot. 

According to Alistair rules, I'm already married to or totally in love with 3/4 of the men I've ever spoken to.

Modifié par Recidiva, 14 décembre 2009 - 03:46 .

[Xeyska]

Recidiva wrote...

My last playthrough I did everything to avoid romance with Alistair, and still had to reset about seven times when I suddenly discovered we were inexplicably "a thing."

It's ridiculous how many innocuous ways there are of starting a romance with him. 

On hindsight, it's nearly impossible to be kind to him and NOT start a romance.  Apparently you have to kick him in the codpiece repeatedly and somehow manage to hold onto your approval rating.

All I wanted was a hardened King I could persuade, and I kept getting roses.  No!  No rose!  Dammit.  To get him to the confirmation point where he says he's going to look out for himself his rating has to be in the 80s.  Getting there is fraught with romantic peril.  "No, I just said you were special, I didn't say "Let's do it.""  There needs to be a "disable romance permanently" option.  Alistair's impossible if you're a female PC, without being outright rude to him.

Really? I never had a problem with this, I picked the most neutral options as possible. Though it is true, all you have to do is say "You're special," and bam! The romance has started. lol

Its funny how Leliana and Zevran are more loyal than him. Hell, everybody is if you got their approval high enough, but pick one option in the Landsmeet and Alistair goes bonkers. What about the Blight, Alistair?

Modifié par Xeyska, 14 décembre 2009 - 03:53 .

[SarEnyaDor]

Another reason Alistair is Zandar and not Mal at all - Zandar turns on Buffy twice for STUPID reasons.

[David Gaider]

I see some people have trouble differentiating between "drew inspiration from" and "is based upon". Saying that Alistair was inspired by Xander or Mal is not the same as suggesting that I wanted Alistair to *be* exactly like Xander or Mal. I took the selective elements of their characters that said something to me personally, things that I wanted to incorporate into a new character.
Are those not the same elements that YOU see in those characters? Shocking.

As for whether or not a romance could be a "strong" character, that depends on your definition. If your expectation is that a strong male romance should be a leader, then you're barking up the wrong tree -- unless you'd really like one of your party members to take charge of the party and otherwise competing with your Alpha-ness. That might work fine in a novel, but not so much in a game. Think about it.

If a "strong" character means a romance where the object of your affections is simply more assertive and masculine -- so long as he isn't attempting to be top dog in the party structure, I don't see a reason why not. Just because Alistair and Zevran were never intended to be that type of character doesn't mean it can't happen. Not unless you think those two were meant to be representative of all romances, that is.

And if someone suggests that Alistair in particular wasn't a good romantic option, I think the legion of Alistair fangirls would disagree.

[Recidiva]

David Gaider wrote...

I see some people have trouble differentiating between "drew inspiration from" and "is based upon". Saying that Alistair was inspired by Xander or Mal is not the same as suggesting that I wanted Alistair to *be* exactly like Xander or Mal. I took the selective elements of their characters that said something to me personally, things that I wanted to incorporate into a new character.
Are those not the same elements that YOU see in those characters? Shocking.

As for whether or not a romance could be a "strong" character, that depends on your definition. If your expectation is that a strong male romance should be a leader, then you're barking up the wrong tree -- unless you'd really like one of your party members to take charge of the party and otherwise competing with your Alpha-ness. That might work fine in a novel, but not so much in a game. Think about it.

If a "strong" character means a romance where the object of your affections is simply more assertive and masculine -- so long as he isn't attempting to be top dog in the party structure, I don't see a reason why not. Just because Alistair and Zevran were never intended to be that type of character doesn't mean it can't happen. Not unless you think those two were meant to be representative of all romances, that is.

And if someone suggests that Alistair in particular wasn't a good romantic option, I think the legion of Alistair fangirls would disagree.

He made me cry.  A lot!

*kicks dirt on the Ref's shoes*

He's an awesome character, and if I stop talking about him, I have to talk about something else, and I'm not ready to do that just yet.

[SarEnyaDor]

Too true, I love Alistair, I just see more Zandar than Mal in him is all.

[Varenus Luckmann]

Recidiva wrote...
[...]

In the Korcari Wilds, Alistair is an excellent leader, making clear he's there to protect you, sense darkspawn, but not make it easy for you.

And then he falls to pieces.

It would have been much more helpful had they not had that scene at all.  He's got just the right leadership tone and toughness.  Which makes it jarring when suddenly he can't summon that tone or toughness ever again.

I agree that it's not depicted that well in the interrim period, but by the end, that toughness comes back.

I guess I relate a bit to Alistair, though, because I hate to lead. Which makes it so much more annoying when I'm surrounded by people that think I should.

[LdyShayna]

Lucy_Glitter wrote...

Alistair's original concept was very similar to Mal Reynolds. Case closed.

It is interesting to look at his concept art and and the original info on him and ponder the differences.  He was what?  32 or somethign originally?  Must have been an experienced Grey Warden and Duncan's second in command.  That might make him older than Cailan, however, which would make it hard to justify him being the illegitimate son of Maric.  I wonder what made them turn him younger and less experienced?  Game realism ("Why is he level 3??").  They decided later to make him Maric's son?  Soemthign else?

Now, I'm personally very happy with the final result.     However, it would be interesting to know how the character developed.  Alas!  I fear it may be one of those "Tales Never Told".

[Kohaku]

LdyShayna wrote...

Lucy_Glitter wrote...

Alistair's original concept was very similar to Mal Reynolds. Case closed.

It is interesting to look at his concept art and and the original info on him and ponder the differences.  He was what?  32 or somethign originally?  Must have been an experienced Grey Warden and Duncan's second in command.  That might make him older than Cailan, however, which would make it hard to justify him being the illegitimate son of Maric.  I wonder what made them turn him younger and less experienced?  Game realism ("Why is he level 3??").  They decided later to make him Maric's son?  Soemthign else?

Now, I'm personally very happy with the final result.     However, it would be interesting to know how the character developed.  Alas!  I fear it may be one of those "Tales Never Told".

I never knew that. Granted I love Bioware games but I wanted to be surprised with the final product. I neglected to find out information about the characters and plot so that it stuck with me more.

When I look at Alistair's character art, I just love it. He's so handsome and dashing. He does remind me of an older guy. I guess that’s why.

[tigrina]

David Gaider wrote...
And if someone suggests that Alistair in particular wasn't a good romantic option, I think the legion of Alistair fangirls would disagree.

While this is true* enough, I hope you can also see the tons of fangirls who are just massively disappointed with the Landsmeet or after.

There is a lack of talk with party members about the Landsmeet in my opinion.

Besides that, the whole ending makes me totally frustrated.

[cynicalsaint1]

Varenus Luckmann wrote...

Recidiva wrote...
[...]

In the Korcari Wilds, Alistair is an excellent leader, making clear he's there to protect you, sense darkspawn, but not make it easy for you.

And then he falls to pieces.

It would have been much more helpful had they not had that scene at all.  He's got just the right leadership tone and toughness.  Which makes it jarring when suddenly he can't summon that tone or toughness ever again.

I agree that it's not depicted that well in the interrim period, but by the end, that toughness comes back.

I guess I relate a bit to Alistair, though, because I hate to lead. Which makes it so much more annoying when I'm surrounded by people that think I should.

I think something that's being missed is the situation in the Kokari Wilds is vastly different from the rest of the game. In the Wilds Alistair is acting under Duncan's orders. Duncan told him what you were going into the Wilds to do, and what you were supposed to do there, which Alistair has no trouble with, yeah - he's leading a group of new recruits, but he's been told what to do with them.

His trouble isn't 'leading' so much as descion making.  He's afraid to make the big tough calls your character has to, because he doens't want to make the wrong choice. This is where he balks. Alistair is cool with being a Sergeant, its being a General that scares him.

[Adria Teksuni]

While I lament the omission of at least one fairy tale ending, I can certainly understand it.

[SarEnyaDor]

cynicalsaint1 wrote...

His trouble isn't 'leading' so much as descion making.  He's afraid to make the big tough calls your character has to, because he doens't want to make the wrong choice. This is where he balks. Alistair is cool with being a Sergeant, its being a General that scares him.

Yes, I totally see this. He says as much to Shale I think when she's pestering him about not wanting to have thousands of people's lives dependent upon his decisions.

[LdyShayna]

cynicalsaint1 wrote...
I think something that's being missed is the situation in the Kokari Wilds is vastly different from the rest of the game. In the Wilds Alistair is acting under Duncan's orders. Duncan told him what you were going into the Wilds to do, and what you were supposed to do there, which Alistair has no trouble with, yeah - he's leading a group of new recruits, but he's been told what to do with them.

His trouble isn't 'leading' so much as descion making.  He's afraid to make the big tough calls your character has to, because he doens't want to make the wrong choice. This is where he balks. Alistair is cool with being a Sergeant, its being a General that scares him.

Good observations.  I completely agree.