329 réponses à ce sujet

[Recidiva]

cynicalsaint1 wrote...

I think something that's being missed is the situation in the Kokari Wilds is vastly different from the rest of the game. In the Wilds Alistair is acting under Duncan's orders. Duncan told him what you were going into the Wilds to do, and what you were supposed to do there, which Alistair has no trouble with, yeah - he's leading a group of new recruits, but he's been told what to do with them.

His trouble isn't 'leading' so much as descion making.  He's afraid to make the big tough calls your character has to, because he doens't want to make the wrong choice. This is where he balks. Alistair is cool with being a Sergeant, its being a General that scares him.

It's not that different.  When given a choice, stay here or press on despite a lot of seasoned solidiers being wiped out, he goes forward.

All the major choices are made at Flemeth's hut also.  Go talk to these guys.  Carrying out those orders is pretty much what'cha gotta do.  Those are still Duncan's orders, you just have to carry them out.  Go get treaties, carry out treaties.

He has an actual problem with carrying out said orders if the PC makes them.  He has a problem with being a Sergeant AND a General.  But he's funny and has a voice that melts steel.

Modifié par Recidiva, 14 décembre 2009 - 04:58 .

[David Gaider]

tigrina wrote...
While this is true* enough, I hope you can also see the tons of fangirls who are just massively disappointed with the Landsmeet or after.

There is a lack of talk with party members about the Landsmeet in my opinion.

Besides that, the whole ending makes me totally frustrated.

I think the frustration of those fangirls is indicative of their emotional involvement. This is a sign of something done right, not wrong -- though I'm not saying that it should establish a pattern or anything.

[ozsras]

And he's only Xander in the way that he's really in love with Duncan (Buffy) and you're Anya.

Oh my God. I. Can't. Stop. Laughing. Because it's so true!

I think my problem with Alistair on the whole is...I have always seen him as a buddy/brother whether I was playing as a male or a female. So when I had to get the romance acheivement with him it felt...icky. Like hitting on my brother or sleeping with my brother - just no.

And I swear playing as a female PC meeting Alistair for the first time... it's like this:
FemPC: Hi! I'm Elissa the Gray Warden recruit-
Alstair: OMG HI - WE ARE IN LOVE- MARRY ME!
Srsly.

As far as Alistair and the toughening up part goes. Honestly, he started out as "Well, I don't know what to do! You choose!" Even at Ostagar he's just there not the leader. And while yes as far as the storyline goes the PC is the leader, as is Ducan at that time, I still got the feeling he wasn't about the strong leader type. He even gets pissy when Ducan is lecturing him on not sassing the mage. Sure, I probably would have been a smart arse too but he had to know Ducan wouldn't let him off without saying anything.

So I agree that from the start Alistair has always been (and it's carried over even to the landsmeet) the "likes the idea of being a knight but doesn't want any of the consequence" type of guy. Doesn't make him a horrible character but does make him a pain in the ass sometimes.

That's why (and I think I'm the only one) who just loves Anora to peices. When I met her for the first time - it was like a breath of fresh air. Someone who knew what she wanted, would do anything to get what  she wanted and by god wasn't as amoral as Morrigan. (well I didn't think she was as amoral as Morri, milage will vary and all that) I was right from the start determined to get her back on the throne.

I have a pet peeve and it's when someone says "make these choices for me! but if you don't do what I like I'll **** about it!". Honestly, I don't really care what my crew thinks of me I'll choose what I think is best and take the consequences that are bound to come from my decisions. (heck, I didn't even know you could keep Lohgain and have Alistair as king until today!) Yeah Alistair might have stayed with me until the landsmeet (and I think that's because I can't help but play a goodie-goodie) but he certainly didn't like my decsions there.

Anyway, I do love Alistair as a character but...as a romance? Nah, I'll stay with Leliana, Zev and my poor lonely Sten. XD

[Recidiva]

Adria Teksuni wrote...

While I lament the omission of at least one fairy tale ending, I can certainly understand it.

"But Mr. Tolkein, what if the eagles carried Frodo away?"
"That would negate the sacrifice he had to make and would make at seem as if the whole trip wasn't worth it."
"Awww..."

Modifié par Recidiva, 14 décembre 2009 - 05:06 .

[sagefic]

David Gaider wrote...

As for whether or not a romance could be a "strong" character, that depends on your definition. If your expectation is that a strong male romance should be a leader, then you're barking up the wrong tree -- unless you'd really like one of your party members to take charge of the party and otherwise competing with your Alpha-ness. That might work fine in a novel, but not so much in a game. Think about it.

Wow - you replied to this thread! I'm sort of feeling...shy now. Geh. (Takes issue with acclaimed VG writer's story and said writer responds....embarrassing...)



Well, I guess I was - am - thinking exactly that. I see the limits: PC must drive story, but PC needs to feel part of the story - NPC must believably fall for  PC, but NPC must have own personality, etc. If you give the NPC moments of strong personality (stand up to PC re: Loghain, stand up to the eveil Revan, whatever), they seem more solidly a person with feelings and ideas of their own - but then you can't romance them with every possible PC. Make it possible to convince them to follow you no matter what (like the Kaiden-bending in ME), then they feel like they're just the PCs toy.

I guess I still am wondering if it is even remotely possible to make a strong leader-char as a companion for the PC.  Perhaps the closest you can get is some sort of Carth Onasi/Bastila thing where the NPC complains/bickers with your leadership most of the game but inexplicably follows you for the majority of the action anyhow.  Or perhaps an Ashely Williams thing where you have a strong character who follows due to rank. (Maybe that's it - I just kept thinking of Alistair as outranking the PC, so it just felt so weird to have him following without (much) question.)

I guess such companions *would* put you in the situation of routinely butting heads with one or more of your NPCs - perhaps even occasionally following their lead or vying for the respect of other companions...but I dunno - that sound interesting to me. 

I find the writing of video games fascinating, in that you essentially write a story-on-rails that needs to NOT feel like a story-on-rails and that's just a feat. It seems that one of the key parts to that is the companions and given that in so many games the companions just fall in like like rats behind the pied piper, I keep wondering if this is really the only way it can go or if there is some other approach to be had here.

But to quote Alistair - "No please don't hit me!" - I do love the story of DA:O. This is just a musing I've often had as I've played my way through Bioware games.

On another note:

DariusKalera wrote...

mousestalker wrote...

Maybe Alistair is more like Wash? A Wash looking for his Zoe.

On an unrelated note, what this game really needs is Jayne. Zevran is the closest character that comes to him, but ......

He is definetly more like Wash.  All the way down to playing with dinosaur toys, or their Fereldan equivalent.

I want to see that scene! Alistair, playing with darkspawn and dragon action figures...

"Curse you for your sudden, but inevitable betrayal!"

(Hmmm...I guess that sudden and inevitable betrayal came from me.)

Modifié par sagequeen, 14 décembre 2009 - 05:16 .

[Kohaku]

Recidiva wrote...

cynicalsaint1 wrote...

I think something that's being missed is the situation in the Kokari Wilds is vastly different from the rest of the game. In the Wilds Alistair is acting under Duncan's orders. Duncan told him what you were going into the Wilds to do, and what you were supposed to do there, which Alistair has no trouble with, yeah - he's leading a group of new recruits, but he's been told what to do with them.

His trouble isn't 'leading' so much as descion making.  He's afraid to make the big tough calls your character has to, because he doens't want to make the wrong choice. This is where he balks. Alistair is cool with being a Sergeant, its being a General that scares him.

It's not that different.  When given a choice, stay here or press on despite a lot of seasoned solidiers being wiped out, he goes forward.

All the major choices are made at Flemeth's hut also.  Go talk to these guys.  Carrying out those orders is pretty much what'cha gotta do.  Those are still Duncan's orders, you just have to carry them out.  Go get treaties, carry out treaties.

He has an actual problem with carrying out said orders if the PC makes them.  He has a problem with being a Sergeant AND a General.  But he's funny and has a voice that melts steel.

I can understand that. I just wish he were just a bit more solid.

[Recidiva]

ozsras wrote...

Anyway, I do love Alistair as a character but...as a romance? Nah, I'll stay with Leliana, Zev and my poor lonely Sten. XD

But...voice.

Actually I'd prefer Sten.  

For me the best romance option has always been HK-47 anyway.

[mousestalker]

Recidiva wrote...

Adria Teksuni wrote...

While I lament the omission of at least one fairy tale ending, I can certainly understand it.

"But Mr. Tolkein, what if the eagles carried Frodo away?"
"That would negate the sacrifice he had to make and would make at seem as if the whole trip wasn't worth it."
"Awww...:"

You so had to go there...

Sam: Why don't we ask the giant eagles to fly us to Mordor. Mr Frodo can drop the Ring into the volcano and we can be home for tea?

Gandalf: <facepalm>

[David Gaider]

LdyShayna wrote...
However, it would be interesting to know how the character developed.  Alas!  I fear it may be one of those "Tales Never Told".

The original concept for Alistair was a "grizzled Grey Warden veteran", as per James Ohlen (who was the original DA Lead Designer). That is, in fact, how Alistair was first written. Thing is, that didn't work very well for a character that needed to join the player but not lead -- and the experience level implied by "veteran" didn't mesh very well with the fact that Alistair needed to join the player early on in the story when everyone was low level. So I ended up re-writing Alistair into someone that worked better as a low-level support character, someone more likeable.

The concept art that you see for Alistair was based only on James Ohlen's description. Mal Reynolds was never mentioned back then, so really has nothing to do with it.

[Recidiva]

mousestalker wrote...

You so had to go there...

Sam: Why don't we ask the giant eagles to fly us to Mordor. Mr Frodo can drop the Ring into the volcano and we can be home for tea?

Gandalf: <facepalm>

I appreciate flaws.  I have several myself. 

 

[ozsras]

For me the best romance option has always been HK-47 anyway.

AMEN.

Hmm, can I have Sten and HK *and* Leli? 'Cause that would be...like the best thing ever.

[LdyShayna]

David Gaider wrote...

LdyShayna wrote...
However, it would be interesting to know how the character developed.  Alas!  I fear it may be one of those "Tales Never Told".

The original concept for Alistair was a "grizzled Grey Warden veteran", as per James Ohlen (who was the original DA Lead Designer). That is, in fact, how Alistair was first written. Thing is, that didn't work very well for a character that needed to join the player but not lead -- and the experience level implied by "veteran" didn't mesh very well with the fact that Alistair needed to join the player early on in the story when everyone was low level. So I ended up re-writing Alistair into someone that worked better as a low-level support character, someone more likeable.

The concept art that you see for Alistair was based only on James Ohlen's description. Mal Reynolds was never mentioned back then, so really has nothing to do with it.

I didn't really expect an answer to that.  Thank you for the info.

[sagefic]

David Gaider wrote...

LdyShayna wrote...
However, it would be interesting to know how the character developed.  Alas!  I fear it may be one of those "Tales Never Told".

The original concept for Alistair was a "grizzled Grey Warden veteran", as per James Ohlen (who was the original DA Lead Designer). That is, in fact, how Alistair was first written. Thing is, that didn't work very well for a character that needed to join the player but not lead -- and the experience level implied by "veteran" didn't mesh very well with the fact that Alistair needed to join the player early on in the story when everyone was low level. So I ended up re-writing Alistair into someone that worked better as a low-level support character, someone more likeable.

The concept art that you see for Alistair was based only on James Ohlen's description. Mal Reynolds was never mentioned back then, so really has nothing to do with it.

That's interesting. I feel the need to add that I really want to see some more Grey Wardens in the future. Alistair's discussion of their drinking game made me want to join up with the host of them sometime.

[tigrina]

David Gaider wrote...

tigrina wrote...
While this is true* enough, I hope you can also see the tons of fangirls who are just massively disappointed with the Landsmeet or after.

There is a lack of talk with party members about the Landsmeet in my opinion.

Besides that, the whole ending makes me totally frustrated.

I think the frustration of those fangirls is indicative of their emotional involvement. This is a sign of something done right, not wrong -- though I'm not saying that it should establish a pattern or anything.

Ah yes, crush my inner softy some more, you mean Maker-writer! *sniff*

On a more serious note:

Adria Teksuni wrote...

While I lament the omission of at least one fairy tale ending, I can certainly understand it.

Ha. While my inner softy totally falls for a fairy tale ending, it is not that what I was hinting at necessarily. It is the lack of being able to talk about stuff which annoys me the most. Let me have my fight with Alistair before or at least just the two of us at the Landsmeet. It is fine if he totally disagrees with me, or wants to dump me or whatever, but give me the option to talk about it (note: not *change*, just talk!). Let me at least see *why* he does what he does, that is fine by me. The string of events without the ability to talk with him or any other of your little party for that matter, that is what is frustrating me the most.

And to add my * from earlier: I totally love the character Alistair. I can see how it is not that easy to write a likeable partymember who can bend to the whims of any player without loosing personality or consistency, I think you did a wonderful job of it, and Mr. Valentine certainly did a sparkling job on the voice acting. Something I didn't expect at all based on the trailers to be honest.

Modifié par tigrina, 14 décembre 2009 - 05:23 .

[Jayce]

Y'know, Alastair with his reluctance to lead, reminds me of an old military axiom that runs something like...

"Put ten men in uniform: one will step up and try to lead, eight will willingly or grudgingly follow, but never lead and one will care only for himself and do his damnedest to not be there."

Admittedly, it's usually used in the context of the pros and cons of creaming off you best soldiers for commando/special forces training and so diluting the calibre of your JNCOs, but I was reminded of it with both Alastair and Sten.

Al's alway struck me as one of the guys who would willingly follow but is totally out of his depth when he has to make descisions. He says as much himself.

The whole thing with Loghain struck me as Alastair not only resenting you offering Loghain something he considers an honour when he wants to see him punished, but also that he had finally found happiness as a relatively anonymous grey warden, after years of being forced into roles and places that made him unhappy.

...And now you want to make him king and force a level of duty and resposibilty on him he doesn't think he could cope with, as well as take away from him his new found happiness. Unsuprisingly his immaturity comes through again and he does what all immature kids do when faced with having to do something they don't want to do; he throws a massive tantrum.

I don't see it as out of character so much as him reverting to type under the stress. Is it stupid and immature? Yeah but when stressed, that's what Alastair is.

Modifié par Jayce F, 14 décembre 2009 - 05:37 .

[Thiefy]

David Gaider wrote...

LdyShayna wrote...
However, it would be interesting to know how the character developed.  Alas!  I fear it may be one of those "Tales Never Told".

The original concept for Alistair was a "grizzled Grey Warden veteran", as per James Ohlen (who was the original DA Lead Designer). That is, in fact, how Alistair was first written. Thing is, that didn't work very well for a character that needed to join the player but not lead -- and the experience level implied by "veteran" didn't mesh very well with the fact that Alistair needed to join the player early on in the story when everyone was low level. So I ended up re-writing Alistair into someone that worked better as a low-level support character, someone more likeable.

The concept art that you see for Alistair was based only on James Ohlen's description. Mal Reynolds was never mentioned back then, so really has nothing to do with it.

Wow that's interesting. You know when Duncan first mentioned him I had this weird feeling: "Alistair? That sounds like an old man's name. I bet he is like Duncan or similar. Older guy with a beard, a few grays showing, stick-in-the-mud."

I finally met him and when he was surprised to see I was female I was like "Yeah, you aren't what I expected either."

[ReubenLiew]

If they replaced Alistair with Altair, that'll be comedy gold.

[David Gaider]

tigrina wrote...
Ha. While my inner softy totally falls for a fairy tale ending, it is not that what I was hinting at necessarily. It is the lack of being able to talk about stuff which annoys me the most. Let me have my fight with Alistair before or at least just the two of us at the Landsmeet. It is fine if he totally disagrees with me, or wants to dump me or whatever, but give me the option to talk about it (note: not *change*, just talk!). Let me at least see *why* he does what he does, that is fine by me. The string of events without the ability to talk with him or any other of your little party for that matter, that is what is frustrating me the most.

I've seen this brought up a few times before. I don't know if the problem here is one of expectation -- I suppose it's flattering that someone doing the Alistair romance expects that the game should turn into the equivalent of a novel centered on it, but the truth of the matter is that Alistair is already a huge character and by far the biggest in the game. The variations in his development even without the romance were already large. At some point it really does have to be recognized that it's a game and such content is limited -- without making the game entirely about this one single romance I don't think we can provide the kind of involvement that some of the fans seem to expect.

In fact, I'm starting to think that maybe the expectation is the problem. Building up the idea that you can talk to a party member at any time, about almost anything, seems to suddenly give rise to "well why couldn't I talk to them about this? Or this? Or this other thing?" It might be worth considering having romances smaller and leaving more to the imagination -- or building a story entirely around the idea of a single romance. Though I don't think the latter is going to happen anytime soon -- still, listening to people compare said romance to the idea that it *should* have been like that and thus finding it lacking is a bit disconcerting.

[SarEnyaDor]

David Gaider wrote...

It might be worth considering having romances smaller and leaving more to the imagination -- or building a story entirely around the idea of a single romance. Though I don't think the latter is going to happen anytime soon -- still, listening to people compare said romance to the idea that it *should* have been like that and thus finding it lacking is a bit disconcerting.

No, no! Forget we complained! This is seriously the BEST RPG I've ever played and the romance and character interaction is totally why. It is human nature to be greedy bastards and always want more, but don't take things away from future development because of that!

Where is the pleading emoticon??

[sagefic]

David Gaider wrote...

tigrina wrote...
Ha. While my inner softy totally falls for a fairy tale ending, it is not that what I was hinting at necessarily. It is the lack of being able to talk about stuff which annoys me the most. Let me have my fight with Alistair before or at least just the two of us at the Landsmeet. It is fine if he totally disagrees with me, or wants to dump me or whatever, but give me the option to talk about it (note: not *change*, just talk!). Let me at least see *why* he does what he does, that is fine by me. The string of events without the ability to talk with him or any other of your little party for that matter, that is what is frustrating me the most.

I've seen this brought up a few times before. I don't know if the problem here is one of expectation -- I suppose it's flattering that someone doing the Alistair romance expects that the game should turn into the equivalent of a novel centered on it, but the truth of the matter is that Alistair is already a huge character and by far the biggest in the game. The variations in his development even without the romance were already large. At some point it really does have to be recognized that it's a game and such content is limited -- without making the game entirely about this one single romance I don't think we can provide the kind of involvement that some of the fans seem to expect.

In fact, I'm starting to think that maybe the expectation is the problem. Building up the idea that you can talk to a party member at any time, about almost anything, seems to suddenly give rise to "well why couldn't I talk to them about this? Or this? Or this other thing?" It might be worth considering having romances smaller and leaving more to the imagination -- or building a story entirely around the idea of a single romance. Though I don't think the latter is going to happen anytime soon -- still, listening to people compare said romance to the idea that it *should* have been like that and thus finding it lacking is a bit disconcerting.

I dunno - the fact that so many people feel so strongly about the characters (Alistair especially, geez, there was even a Penny Arcade cartoon on the guy's defection) certainly shows that they are believable characters. Again, I was really pleased to find he would leave - it felt believable. It just also meant no romance for my PC.

 hmmm...maybe less IS more though. NWN2 had scads of people modding and discussing the romances which, IMO, were pretty much non-existent. 

[LdyShayna]

David Gaider wrote...
In fact, I'm starting to think that maybe the expectation is the problem. Building up the idea that you can talk to a party member at any time, about almost anything, seems to suddenly give rise to "well why couldn't I talk to them about this? Or this? Or this other thing?" It might be worth considering having romances smaller and leaving more to the imagination

Gah!  Collateral damage here, David. I've worked really hard at my expectation self management skills.   Don't punish me, too. 

[Jayce]

sagequeen wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

tigrina wrote...
Ha. While my inner softy totally falls for a fairy tale ending, it is not that what I was hinting at necessarily. It is the lack of being able to talk about stuff which annoys me the most. Let me have my fight with Alistair before or at least just the two of us at the Landsmeet. It is fine if he totally disagrees with me, or wants to dump me or whatever, but give me the option to talk about it (note: not *change*, just talk!). Let me at least see *why* he does what he does, that is fine by me. The string of events without the ability to talk with him or any other of your little party for that matter, that is what is frustrating me the most.

I've seen this brought up a few times before. I don't know if the problem here is one of expectation -- I suppose it's flattering that someone doing the Alistair romance expects that the game should turn into the equivalent of a novel centered on it, but the truth of the matter is that Alistair is already a huge character and by far the biggest in the game. The variations in his development even without the romance were already large. At some point it really does have to be recognized that it's a game and such content is limited -- without making the game entirely about this one single romance I don't think we can provide the kind of involvement that some of the fans seem to expect.

In fact, I'm starting to think that maybe the expectation is the problem. Building up the idea that you can talk to a party member at any time, about almost anything, seems to suddenly give rise to "well why couldn't I talk to them about this? Or this? Or this other thing?" It might be worth considering having romances smaller and leaving more to the imagination -- or building a story entirely around the idea of a single romance. Though I don't think the latter is going to happen anytime soon -- still, listening to people compare said romance to the idea that it *should* have been like that and thus finding it lacking is a bit disconcerting.

I dunno - the fact that so many people feel so strongly about the characters (Alistair especially, geez, there was even a Penny Arcade cartoon on the guy's defection) certainly shows that they are believable characters. Again, I was really pleased to find he would leave - it felt believable. It just also meant no romance for my PC.

 hmmm...maybe less IS more though. NWN2 had scads of people modding and discussing the romances which, IMO, were pretty much non-existent. 

There were romances?

I certainly recall all the women swooning over Bishop... but then I've seen lots of men do the same over Tali in Mass Effect.. Maybe there's something in David's suggestion or maybe it's just wanting what/who you can't have. 

[David Gaider]

LdyShayna wrote...
Gah!  Collateral damage here, David. I've worked really hard at my expectation self management skills.   Don't punish me, too. 

Well, the issue with expectations does not like in your hands but in ours. If we build up the notion that you can talk to your romance about anything, then suddenly when you can't talk to him about something it becomes a glaring omission in your mind. I get it, but the problem is not yours but ours for establishing that expectation in the first place. Perhaps, if we are not willing to make the game entirely about a romance, we should not write the party members as if that is the case.

Something to consider, maybe.

sagequeen wrote...
 hmmm...maybe less IS more though. NWN2 had scads of people modding and discussing the romances which, IMO, were pretty much non-existent. 

I remember people saying the same thing about NWN1, talking about "the Sharwyn romance" when it consisted of a couple of lines of flirting and no more. The answer may not be in having a massive romance with even more lines and variations but in not establishing the impression that every conversation you have with your romance is all that exists. Clearly if you leave some blank space, players will fill in those blanks themselves.

Modifié par David Gaider, 14 décembre 2009 - 05:56 .

[SarEnyaDor]

No, please don't consider that! This is such a step forward in gaming, I have never played a game where seriously ALL of my friends really truly like it. My husband likes it - and he's the anti-Mikey!

[sagefic]

David Gaider wrote...

LdyShayna wrote...
Gah!  Collateral damage here, David. I've worked really hard at my expectation self management skills.   Don't punish me, too. 

Well, the issue with expectations does not like in your hands but in ours. If we build up the notion that you can talk to your romance about anything, then suddenly when you can't talk to him about something it becomes a glaring omission in your mind. I get it, but the problem is not yours but ours for establishing that expectation in the first place. Perhaps, if we are not willing to make the game entirely about a romance, we should not write the party members as if that is the case.

Something to consider, maybe.

gah! okay, never mind, never mind! forget I said anything!  take most fully fleshed out romance in a game ever for what it is and insert my own thoughts on side conversations in my head. *conjures a happy image and smiles*