329 réponses à ce sujet

[Thiefy]

David Gaider wrote...

In fact, I'm starting to think that maybe the expectation is the problem. Building up the idea that you can talk to a party member at any time, about almost anything, seems to suddenly give rise to "well why couldn't I talk to them about this? Or this? Or this other thing?" It might be worth considering having romances smaller and leaving more to the imagination -- or building a story entirely around the idea of a single romance. Though I don't think the latter is going to happen anytime soon -- still, listening to people compare said romance to the idea that it *should* have been like that and thus finding it lacking is a bit disconcerting.

I don't think that's it at all. This is my first bioware game so I can't compare it to the others, but compared to all the other games and RPGs I've played, Dragon Age is by far the best. I think the fact that people are asking for more and foaming at the mouth for it should only prove that. If they weren't so totally invested in it, or if they just didn't care about the story or the characters, that would be one thing, but people feel so strongly about Alistair/Morrigan/Loghain/whoever that they want more options. That's not to say that was is there isn't sufficient or isn't well done - it just means whatever you did was right.

I mean if my ending was just me and Ali sitting on the throne, married, with 2.5 children in our white castle with a red roof, and no threat of a demon baby, there really wouldn't need to be a dragon age 2, would there?

Please don't take all this as something negative - I don't think any fan really feels that is the case.

[Taleroth]

Is that really about romance? Alistair is set up to be a character who completely surrenders all agency and decisions to the player. His protests to decisions prior to Landsmeet deserve, at best, to only be thought of as "token."

That's true regardless of whether or not you romance him. But suddenly he decides that there's a few things he needs to grab the reigns for, whether we're talking about sacrifice for his romance, denial of marriage for non-human, or refusing to party with Loghain. There's not really a buildup from "passive navel gazer" to "I've got a stance, out of my mofrackin way."

If there is, I completely missed it.

Though I guess Loghain's a middle ground.  He's got enough agency to complain about it, but not enough agency to get out his shiv knife.  He has to borrow yours.

Modifié par Taleroth, 14 décembre 2009 - 06:07 .

[Recidiva]

David Gaider wrote...

I've seen this brought up a few times before. I don't know if the problem here is one of expectation -- I suppose it's flattering that someone doing the Alistair romance expects that the game should turn into the equivalent of a novel centered on it, but the truth of the matter is that Alistair is already a huge character and by far the biggest in the game. The variations in his development even without the romance were already large. At some point it really does have to be recognized that it's a game and such content is limited -- without making the game entirely about this one single romance I don't think we can provide the kind of involvement that some of the fans seem to expect.

In fact, I'm starting to think that maybe the expectation is the problem. Building up the idea that you can talk to a party member at any time, about almost anything, seems to suddenly give rise to "well why couldn't I talk to them about this? Or this? Or this other thing?" It might be worth considering having romances smaller and leaving more to the imagination -- or building a story entirely around the idea of a single romance. Though I don't think the latter is going to happen anytime soon -- still, listening to people compare said romance to the idea that it *should* have been like that and thus finding it lacking is a bit disconcerting.

The depth that he displays in the beginning (again by dint of excellent writing and delivery) becomes narrower and narrower as the game progresses and yes, that's when the game shifts from character-driven choices to plot-driven choices.

As a player trying to motivate themselves by roleplay to work through a game, it has a bit of a "bottom falling out" vertigo.  Because there was a balance of character drive and plot drive up until that point.  Excellent ones, in point of fact. 

I think the writing and delivery far exceeded any expectations I had of a game, so of course I'm going to put my own opinion and stamp on what I "think" I should have been able to do, but that's because the game had been going along giving me exactly the options I wanted up until Landsmeet.

It really isn't a failure of character, it's a perfect balance of character to plot, and then all plot, and the character becomes...irrelevant to the setup.

The game is about Origins and motivations and choices, it's just disconcerting to run out of them suddenly.  That may be expedient to the story, and I get that.  It results in a major downshift in the player's motivations if romance is it.  If you've chosen romance as an option, as a motivation, then Landsmeet is really where "Your Journey Ends"
Those make excellent stories on their own and they're great to roleplay.  I've surely had a blast constructing characters to navigate through it all.

If you're going to present romance as a motivation option, same as presenting wanting to have power and wanting to have revenge...the game delivers on the power and the revenge.  It seriously star-crosses the romances.  And as a...really...really...die-hard romantic, that's sad.  Several boxes of tissues sad.  I'm not asking for a happy ending, as that would be counterproductive of romance.  

I'm not saying that Romeo and Juliet should have both just ditched everything and taken up somewhere in Padua and become shopkeepers.  But if somewhere halfway through the play they pass each other in hallways constantly with nothing to say, it gets...weird.  Fine with the "one of us has to die" part.  Not so happy with the awkward weird, can't talk to each other about it part. 

Modifié par Recidiva, 14 décembre 2009 - 06:10 .

[Thiefy]

The game is about Origins and motivations and choices, it's just disconcerting to run out of them suddenly.

I think the Origins thing may be a little of a misconception. While it's true there are different backgrounds to choose from and they all add a certain amount of depth to the game, I believe Origins refers to the series itself, as in this is the beginning of a special series, meaning this is only the start of a long story, that there's probably going to more going on, *later on*, and therefore maybe all of the cards and special events shouldn't be laid out just yet.



I don't know, maybe it's just me. But it's only the first title in what we believe will be an epic series, and it's only been like, a month and a half or so since it's release.



I've gotten frustrated too at some points, but that was really only when I went back and did replays. In the moment, I went with what was there and didn't think twice about it. Much like real life. I'm sure I'm not the only one whose thought about something in the past and went "Why didn't I do this or that? That would have been the smart option!" You can assume your character had one or several of those moments.



But in all seriousness, maybe they just didn't think about those options, or maybe it wasn't important enough to the plot to put reasources into. Everyone acts to a situation differently, and with infinite choices, finite reasources, it's not possible to get them all, or even most of them. The most important (read: plot related) options were picked and the rest were dropped. You have the option to tell Alistair he is a jerk for dumping you and that will have to suffice until a slap option becomes availible somewhere down the road.

[Kohaku]

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

The game is about Origins and motivations and choices, it's just disconcerting to run out of them suddenly.

You have the option to tell Alistair he is a jerk for dumping you and that will have to suffice until a slap option becomes availible somewhere down the road.

A slap for Morrigan is available. You can hope the modder does it for him too.

[Thiefy]

Kerridan Kaiba wrote...

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

The game is about Origins and motivations and choices, it's just disconcerting to run out of them suddenly.

You have the option to tell Alistair he is a jerk for dumping you and that will have to suffice until a slap option becomes availible somewhere down the road.

A slap for Morrigan is available. You can hope the modder does it for him too.

haha yeah, there were a couple of times i wanted to as a noble female. it seems like all the other girls liked the "so I fooled you part" but I was actually pissed. Srsly? That was a joke?

Yes I was tricked, damnit. That b*stard. >_> And somehow, I feel as though I shall never live that down.

Then the part where you give him the pendant and he goes on about dancing and minstrels. I'm trying to be nice here Alistair!  Fine, be that way. I'll go flirt with Zev and make you jealous.

[Recidiva]

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

I think the Origins thing may be a little of a misconception. While it's true there are different backgrounds to choose from and they all add a certain amount of depth to the game, I believe Origins refers to the series itself, as in this is the beginning of a special series, meaning this is only the start of a long story, that there's probably going to more going on, *later on*, and therefore maybe all of the cards and special events shouldn't be laid out just yet.

I don't know, maybe it's just me. But it's only the first title in what we believe will be an epic series, and it's only been like, a month and a half or so since it's release.

I've gotten frustrated too at some points, but that was really only when I went back and did replays. In the moment, I went with what was there and didn't think twice about it. Much like real life. I'm sure I'm not the only one whose thought about something in the past and went "Why didn't I do this or that? That would have been the smart option!" You can assume your character had one or several of those moments.

But in all seriousness, maybe they just didn't think about those options, or maybe it wasn't important enough to the plot to put reasources into. Everyone acts to a situation differently, and with infinite choices, finite reasources, it's not possible to get them all, or even most of them. The most important (read: plot related) options were picked and the rest were dropped. You have the option to tell Alistair he is a jerk for dumping you and that will have to suffice until a slap option becomes availible somewhere down the road.

Could be, and the game's not written for me.  But kicking in my two cents about what I would like written for me can't hurt.  It can be annoying and presumptuous, but it can't really hurt.

I didn't want a slap option really.  I love Alistair as the player behind it all.  I can construct characters that don't, but I love him just slightly less than Dog, and that's a lot.   If he's not the brightest bulb in the box, that doesn't affect my character's sheer adoration.  Wanting to protect him also becomes a factor.  Wanting to save him from himself can become a maternal thing if not a romantic thing.

[tigrina]

I didn't expect a reaction on my posting. It is highly appreciated! :happy:

David Gaider wrote...
I've seen this brought up a few times before. I don't know if the problem here is one of expectation -- I suppose it's flattering that someone doing the Alistair romance expects that the game should turn into the equivalent of a novel centered on it, but the truth of the matter is that Alistair is already a huge character and by far the biggest in the game. The variations in his development even without the romance were already large. At some point it really does have to be recognized that it's a game and such content is limited -- without making the game entirely about this one single romance I don't think we can provide the kind of involvement that some of the fans seem to expect.

It is *because* Alistair is such a big part to the story that it only feels "natural" to be able to talk with him about his future, romance or not. With the other party members, you more or less know what they will do after the last fight (if you took the time to talk with them a lot). Your decisions however greatly influences Alistair's and the same can't be said about your other party members. You can't tell Sten to do the arch demon killing or sit on a throne. The only thing that comes to mind is Morrigan's ritual, but you can deny her that if you're so inclined.

I'm trying to explain why I feel how I feel here, not trying to change your thoughts about it, or just plain complaining.

David Gaider wrote...
In fact, I'm starting to think that maybe the expectation is the problem. Building up the idea that you can talk to a party member at any time, about almost anything, seems to suddenly give rise to "well why couldn't I talk to them about this? Or this? Or this other thing?" It might be worth considering having romances smaller and leaving more to the imagination -- or building a story entirely around the idea of a single romance. Though I don't think the latter is going to happen anytime soon -- still, listening to people compare said romance to the idea that it *should* have been like that and thus finding it lacking is a bit disconcerting.

The story is for big parts about the PC and Alistair, isn't that what you stated above? Even with poster girl Morrigan at the side, she just does her thing, whatever you might want out of her or not. She is very single minded about it too, which makes it a lot easier for me to accept her 'ending'. It is just fitting for who she is. Your other party members don't have ties to the human Ferelden court at all, so they are not as crucial at the Landsmeet. And let me just say it out loud, the Landsmeet is the climax of the game here, right? So if the climax of the game collides with your romantic interest, you expect something with that, isn't that just logical?

To be totally fair, it is the only thing I'm really frustrated about. Most parts of the game, I can do in a way I enjoy, something I didn't really expect with all the 'dark' bits flying over the forums the last 5 years.

Modifié par tigrina, 14 décembre 2009 - 06:58 .

[MoSa09]

David Gaider wrote...
I've seen this brought up a few times before. I don't know if the problem here is one of expectation -- I suppose it's flattering that someone doing the Alistair romance expects that the game should turn into the equivalent of a novel centered on it, but the truth of the matter is that Alistair is already a huge character and by far the biggest in the game. The variations in his development even without the romance were already large. At some point it really does have to be recognized that it's a game and such content is limited -- without making the game entirely about this one single romance I don't think we can provide the kind of involvement that some of the fans seem to expect.

Well, i can only add that if all the responses you get for the romances in DAO proves you something, than it proves that you did many things very right. I agree that it raises expectations among players and a game can simply not satisfy all. But then, i guess you can't make any game without having people complain they also want this and that.
My important point here is: i guess the demands and worries expressed here all over the boards a are clear sign that you did it right, otherwise people would not complain about digital romances. The character interaction, relation and romances as presented in DAO were brought to a new level in DAO, and added a great deal why people like it that much as they do and waiting anciously for continuation.
Imo, there are always worries and complaints, regardless of what you do, and one strength of DAO was exactly the very well done characters and it's romances. To sum up, imo, you should take these inquiries as a compliment to your great work (i can't remember a videogame where people cared about digital love affairs in such a strong way, and over such a long time) instead of thinking about reducing them. Character interaction and relationships have reached a new height in DAO, something i personally have never seen before, and you should be proud of what you achieved and not retreat from there, but rather stick to this level. Just my opinion...

Modifié par MoSa09, 14 décembre 2009 - 06:51 .

[SarEnyaDor]

If you tell him it might be too soon to know how you feel he grabs you, kisses you and says "well is it too soon for this" to which I always reply I need more testing and it skips the fool you line and goes straight to the maker's breath he's so luck line.

Much better interaction. And don't romance him as an elf, his "especially because your not human" creeps me out.

Modifié par SarEnyaDor, 14 décembre 2009 - 06:43 .

[Thiefy]

SarEnyaDor wrote...

If you tell him it might be too soon to know how you feel he grabs you, kisses you and says "well is it too soon for this" to which I always reply I need more testing and it skips the fool you line and goes straight to the maker's breath he's so luck line.

Much better interaction. And don't romance him as an elf, his "especially because your not human" creeps me out.

I know, I've done a few replays. Doesn't change the fact that I was tricked by a video game character first time around. >_> And it wasn't even a devious or nefarious one at that.

[sagefic]

Recidiva wrote...

If you're going to present romance as a motivation option, same as presenting wanting to have power and wanting to have revenge...the game delivers on the power and the revenge.  It seriously star-crosses the romances.  And as a...really...really...die-hard romantic, that's sad.  Several boxes of tissues sad.  I'm not asking for a happy ending, as that would be counterproductive of romance.  

I'm not saying that Romeo and Juliet should have both just ditched everything and taken up somewhere in Padua and become shopkeepers.  But if somewhere halfway through the play they pass each other in hallways constantly with nothing to say, it gets...weird.  Fine with the "one of us has to die" part.  Not so happy with the awkward weird, can't talk to each other about it part. 

i made the mistake of finding out about the ending before i got there (will NOT do that on ME2 - no forums for me until i'm done with the game, i swear) and i was so annoyed at the options.

truth be told, when i got there, it really was less weird/frustrating than i thought it would be. Major spoilers follow:  morrigan's offer sounded so reasonable (which kind of freaked me out), though i didn't take it. i got al on the throne with anora, he even forgave me a little, i didn't die, and loghain was a hero and redeemed. heck, even my brother lived (human noble origin) which was completely unexpected. i think that made me happiest. i did a little dance.

am I right in summarizing 2 major themes emerging in this discussion?

1a. Can an NPC ever be as strong as the PC in characterization, decision making, and leading? 

Seems the answer Mr. Gaider is giving is perhaps, but then they're kind of at odds with the PC given how the PC chooses to act. They're a rival, not a companion.

1b. Can a romancable NPC ever be as strong as the PC in characterization, decision making, and leading?

Seems the answer is not really - it just goes against the nature of VG writing.

Is that accurate? Correct me if I'm wrong.

and then the other discussion seems to be 

2. Is less more for NPC romances because you can imagine it or is more more?

In this, I could go either way. I gave up on the romance options for this game because they did not appeal to me personally, but I still appreciated all the time and care put into making them.

Modifié par sagequeen, 14 décembre 2009 - 07:01 .

[sagefic]

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

SarEnyaDor wrote...

If you tell him it might be too soon to know how you feel he grabs you, kisses you and says "well is it too soon for this" to which I always reply I need more testing and it skips the fool you line and goes straight to the maker's breath he's so luck line.

Much better interaction. And don't romance him as an elf, his "especially because your not human" creeps me out.

I know, I've done a few replays. Doesn't change the fact that I was tricked by a video game character first time around. >_> And it wasn't even a devious or nefarious one at that.

really? i guess i took that as "am i fooling myself?" and then your answer prompts a self-depreciating "oh, so i guess i didn't fool myself - somehow i managed to fool you into falling for me, too." 

Modifié par sagequeen, 14 décembre 2009 - 07:00 .

[Thiefy]

sagequeen wrote...

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

SarEnyaDor wrote...

If you tell him it might be too soon to know how you feel he grabs you, kisses you and says "well is it too soon for this" to which I always reply I need more testing and it skips the fool you line and goes straight to the maker's breath he's so luck line.

Much better interaction. And don't romance him as an elf, his "especially because your not human" creeps me out.

I know, I've done a few replays. Doesn't change the fact that I was tricked by a video game character first time around. >_> And it wasn't even a devious or nefarious one at that.

really? i guess i took that as "am i fooling myself?" and then your answer prompts a self-depreciating "oh, so i guess i didn't fool myself - somehow i managed to fool you into falling for me, too." 

Eh, either I didn't read enough into that or someone else put more thought into it. It was more like one of those fangirl "Omg I canno just believe that happened..." kind of thing and I felt stupid. I didn't stay angry for long, mind you, just enough to have felt like a fool.

He tricked me darnit.  Grant it that was what he was aiming to do, espeically given all the flirting but I fell for it so easily! D: I thought I was smarter than that.

[Dunhart]

I wouldn't mind if an RPG that would explore the possibility of the PC NOT being the party leader, with your control over the NPCs limited on your personal choices and how well you 'manipulate' them through conversation. That would at least make the party members seem to have more backbone when they don't follow your every whim. It would also justify away any specific railroad moments where there's only a few possible ways a situation can unfold.

Romances would also seem more even this way, as your companion wouldn't just be strung along by your commands. Also, lover's quarrels are something that I don't recall ever seeing. If you argue, it's usually the end of the relationship right there.

But I understand that's a very risky direction to take a game. Maybe I'll save it for when I get into gaming design.

Modifié par Dunhart, 14 décembre 2009 - 07:13 .

[sagefic]

Recidiva wrote...

It depends on who you think Alistair is in love with.  It's not the PC.  It's either the Grey Wardens or Duncan.

just read this.  so true

[Recidiva]

sagequeen wrote...

1a. Can an NPC ever be as strong as the PC in characterization, decision making, and leading? 

Seems the answer Mr. Gaider is giving is perhaps, but then they're kind of at odds with the PC given how the PC chooses to act. They're a rival, not a companion.

1b. Can a romancable NPC ever be as strong as the PC in characterization, decision making, and leading?

Seems the answer is not really - it just goes against the nature of VG writing.

Is that accurate? Correct me if I'm wrong.

and then the other discussion seems to be 

2. Is less more for NPC romances because you can imagine it or is more more?

In this, I could go either way. I gave up on the romance options for this game because they did not appeal to me personally, but I still appreciated all the time and care put into making them.

1.  I think maybe there's a difference between "strong" and "flexible"  You can be strong and flexible.  Many of the characters are strong but inflexible.  Alistair is actually very strong AND flexible, until he's not.  The only main conflict there is he idealizes Duncan, a Grey Warden who prized flexibility over everything else.  Which makes it difficult, if not impossible, to get Alistair what he wants, because he's idealistic when it suits him and pragmatic when it suits him (and by him I mean when it suits the plot), none of which are really predictable.

1b.  I think the problem is with consistency, not strength or decision making or even leading.  I can accept that the character really went through several revisions in writing and story purpose, and that makes the most sense with the finished product.  He's part competent pragmatic leader, part romantic gush and part stubborn idiot.  You just don't know which part in particular is going to show up when.  He needed to be certain things for certain parts of the story and that's the way it went.  Plot took precedence over characterization and in order to accomodate certain plot chokepoints, that's the way the plot cookie crumbles.  Without major revision of the plot to suit one story line, it became impossible.  The PC is expected to make sacrifices and Alistair's the lamb roped down for the slaughter.  You can't give one player a sweetness and light ending and another one only the grit.  Everyone got grit.  Okay.  That's the best explanation that trumps any question about consistency.  Different parts of his personality are chosen as "immutable" at different parts of the game.  Whether or not they were mutable before becomes irrelevant.  They can't write 47 different endings.  They drew the line somewhere around 35.  Cool.  They did a really good job and wanting more of the same is overall a compliment to the game developers, not an insult.

2.  In certain cases, yes, less is more.  But nothing is still nothing.

[Recidiva]

Colenda wrote...

I kind of had the impression from the game that Alistair's choices at the Landsmeet are derived from his father figures. Basically, he loves Duncan and after him, Eamon, and the values they represent to him, much more than he loves the PC.

You can talk to Alistair a little about the future - but most of that involves persuading him to do something. Could you describe in a little more detail what such a conversation would be like? I'z curious.

The few conversations I'd love to have had:

"You know...before I make my pass at you...I might be the heir to the throne, and if that happens and you're not a human noble, we're through."

"I will/will not become king and if you do/do not make me do this, I will/will not blame you."

"I'm taking the final blow." "No, me." "No. Me." "No. Me."  "You're staying at the gates." "Mooom!"

[robertthebard]

I think Alistair loves the idea of loving the PC, but as somebody mentioned earlier about making decisions, he can't stop waffling there either, especially with non Noble PC's. He gives in to the "peer pressure" of the day, in other words, he falls right back into being a follower. Which of course leads me right back to why I can't ever see him, in game, not in the epilogue, as ever being a good choice, and, based on those experiences, I have to wonder, if Anora is locked up, is Eamon pulling his strings after all?

[Thiefy]

Recidiva wrote...

Colenda wrote...

I kind of had the impression from the game that Alistair's choices at the Landsmeet are derived from his father figures. Basically, he loves Duncan and after him, Eamon, and the values they represent to him, much more than he loves the PC.

You can talk to Alistair a little about the future - but most of that involves persuading him to do something. Could you describe in a little more detail what such a conversation would be like? I'z curious.

The few conversations I'd love to have had:

"You know...before I make my pass at you...I might be the heir to the throne, and if that happens and you're not a human noble, we're through."

"I will/will not become king and if you do/do not make me do this, I will/will not blame you."

"I'm taking the final blow." "No, me." "No. Me." "No. Me."  "You're staying at the gates." "Mooom!"

Well it kind of seems like common sense really. Why do you need to have those conversations? Even if Alistair accepts and loves Elves or Dwarves, many humans and nobles do no feel the same way. Especially about elves. All you have to do is look at your enviroment and see. Why would you suddenly expect to be accepts and made into queen otherwise? The last grey warden who ended the blight was an elf but they are still treated as trash by the community. It's not right but it should hardly be a surprise.

Not sure why you are arguing about the gate thing either. He won't argue at the gate because there is quite literally, an arch demon at your doorstep, and as he said and you only confirmed here, there's no point to argue because you are a stubborn woman. Obviously he feels contrary because he wouldn't let you sacrifice yourself should you take him along, so it really seems moot to want or expect a major arguement before the final battle.

[Wrathra]

David Gaider wrote...

In fact, I'm starting to think that maybe the expectation is the problem. Building up the idea that you can talk to a party member at any time, about almost anything, seems to suddenly give rise to "well why couldn't I talk to them about this? Or this? Or this other thing?" It might be worth considering having romances smaller and leaving more to the imagination -- or building a story entirely around the idea of a single romance. Though I don't think the latter is going to happen anytime soon -- still, listening to people compare said romance to the idea that it *should* have been like that and thus finding it lacking is a bit disconcerting.

Gah! No David, please don't change it in the future. This was the best you guys have ever done, and the thought of going back to something with less interaction is depressing, to say the very least. You guys have spoiled me way too much and playing something without this level of interaction is just empty and unsatisfying.

[tigrina]

Recidiva wrote...

Colenda wrote...
I kind of had the impression from the game that Alistair's choices at the Landsmeet are derived from his father figures. Basically, he loves Duncan and after him, Eamon, and the values they represent to him, much more than he loves the PC.

You can talk to Alistair a little about the future - but most of that involves persuading him to do something. Could you describe in a little more detail what such a conversation would be like? I'z curious.

The few conversations I'd love to have had:

"You know...before I make my pass at you...I might be the heir to the throne, and if that happens and you're not a human noble, we're through."

"I will/will not become king and if you do/do not make me do this, I will/will not blame you."

"I'm taking the final blow." "No, me." "No. Me." "No. Me."  "You're staying at the gates." "Mooom!"

Exactly.