329 réponses à ce sujet

[Recidiva]

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

Well it kind of seems like common sense really. Why do you need to have those conversations? Even if Alistair accepts and loves Elves or Dwarves, many humans and nobles do no feel the same way. Especially about elves. All you have to do is look at your enviroment and see. Why would you suddenly expect to be accepts and made into queen otherwise? The last grey warden who ended the blight was an elf but they are still treated as trash by the community. It's not right but it should hardly be a surprise.

Not sure why you are arguing about the gate thing either. He won't argue at the gate because there is quite literally, an arch demon at your doorstep, and as he said and you only confirmed here, there's no point to argue because you are a stubborn woman. Obviously he feels contrary because he wouldn't let you sacrifice yourself should you take him along, so it really seems moot to want or expect a major arguement before the final battle.

It's not common sense to me.  I spent the whole game changing bad social choices with my sword.  Why am I expected to kowtow to stupid now?   And Alistair knew all of this long before many PCs did.  He knew he was an heir and it might come to that long before many female PC's get the slightest idea, then it's too late.  Until you go to Arl Eamon's, he doesn't disclose he's the heir, and a LOT can happen to a Grey Warden before that takes place.

You have the option to mention to Riordan that youl'll take the final blow and Alistair doesn't blink then.  There's no reason to think he won't accept your leadership, as he's done so for the whole game if you played it his way.

I always want more argument.  Silly.  Geeez.

[Chragen]

I really liked how the romances turned out. Though I wish the gifts/approval system was not there. I really miss the length of the romance that you had in Baldur's Gate 2.

But other than that the romance and general conversations in Dragon Age are really amazing and I think people are just trying to find flaws. Since if you think about it few games have done it as well as Dragon Age so you don't exactly have lot to compare to begin with.

[Recidiva]

Colenda wrote...

I see. Thank you. In the case of the first one, it could be a little - OOC for Alistair? For an unhardened Alistair, anyway.  I mean, he doesn't tell you about the whole Maric's son thing until he's practically at the gates to Castle Redcliffe. And it's possible he's put off thinking about what happens with the PC until his changed station forces him to think.A conversation would be nice, but perhaps one driven by the PC.

Option 2. Agreed. That would be great.
3. I've never played the Alistair romance through to the end - so there's not a single chance to argue?

No.  No chance to argue.  And I tried for three games, raising cunning, race choice and going through the entire rooftop tree of conversation options one by one.  No chance.  I actually came to this site to confirm there was absolutely no way whatsoever to change his mind.  Or I'd be trying ot push level 50 with a cunning of 100 to unlock the damned option.

I didn't realize at all the gate option, because Riordan specifially says to take Alistair, I never questioned it as game canon.  And also because it's intensely "unromantic" and counterintuitive to me entirely.

The WORST part is getting the "Warden Commander" achievement that says I commanded Alistair to kill himself when I actually was doing my damnedest through several playthroughs to PREVENT it. 

[Thiefy]

Er...I don't see how much social change happens with your blade. While you can rescue people and make morally outstanding choices, the drawves are still gimped regardless of the ruler (though the casteless does get some benefit from Bhelen but what does that say about other classes?), the elves are still second class citizens, and even if the mages are free from the circle that won't erase people's fear of them or stop them from being ostracized by the chantry. While you may have set things in motion, it is far from winning a war, so to speak.



You seriously can't blame all this on Alistair. At some point in time your PC is also at fault, even if you don't want to admit it. At any point in time after Alistair tells about his heritage, you can end the relatiosnhip with him, if protecting your feelings was something important to you. And why should Alistair end things with you then? He is hoping and praying he doesn't have to be king, one of the reasons for that being he can stay with you. If you don't push him to be king, he won't need to break it off. But he can't tell what's going on in your head, so how does he know if you will force him to be king or not? There's a lot of "What ifs" going on there and the one thing we know about Alistair is that he isn't much of a risk taker - he would rather go with the flow and keep the peace unless he is pushed really, really hard.



With Riordan - you know Alistair is just keeping his mouth silent. I'm sure he is planning it all in his head "yeah right, not if I have anything to do with it". And you can call him on it if you decide to leave him at the gate. One of the options are "You will do something foolish." To which he replies "Maybe, but we will never know now." Most female fans were shocked and surprised that he refused to let them die - would you still be so shocked if you had an arguement over it the night before? No. Alistair is smart. He knows if he causes a scene early, you'll leave him behind and then he won't get his chance to save you.

[Recidiva]

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

Er...I don't see how much social change happens with your blade. While you can rescue people and make morally outstanding choices, the drawves are still gimped regardless of the ruler (though the casteless does get some benefit from Bhelen but what does that say about other classes?), the elves are still second class citizens, and even if the mages are free from the circle that won't erase people's fear of them or stop them from being ostracized by the chantry. While you may have set things in motion, it is far from winning a war, so to speak.

You seriously can't blame all this on Alistair. At some point in time your PC is also at fault, even if you don't want to admit it. At any point in time after Alistair tells about his heritage, you can end the relatiosnhip with him, if protecting your feelings was something important to you. And why should Alistair end things with you then? He is hoping and praying he doesn't have to be king, one of the reasons for that being he can stay with you. If you don't push him to be king, he won't need to break it off. But he can't tell what's going on in your head, so how does he know if you will force him to be king or not? There's a lot of "What ifs" going on there and the one thing we know about Alistair is that he isn't much of a risk taker - he would rather go with the flow and keep the peace unless he is pushed really, really hard.

With Riordan - you know Alistair is just keeping his mouth silent. I'm sure he is planning it all in his head "yeah right, not if I have anything to do with it". And you can call him on it if you decide to leave him at the gate. One of the options are "You will do something foolish." To which he replies "Maybe, but we will never know now." Most female fans were shocked and surprised that he refused to let them die - would you still be so shocked if you had an arguement over it the night before? No. Alistair is smart. He knows if he causes a scene early, you'll leave him behind and then he won't get his chance to save you.

No, that gives me infinitely more psychic and "ew" powers than I possess.  But had he expressed any of those as obvious universal truths and I'm too stupid to see it, that would have solved my problem because romance is gone.

To be rejected on race and class is enough.  To then have him decide he's taking the final blow despite my orders because I'm a girl...worse.

No thanks.  Thumbs down.

All that adds up to is "The World According to Alistair" and I thought it was my game.  Guess not.

To not get a racist, classist, sexist vibe is...impossible.  And I think there should have been more racist, classist, sexist vibes along the way to give me a hint.

[SarEnyaDor]

He does have a racist vibe - his line that he wants to sleep with you ESPECIALLY because you are not human is a big red warning flag.....

[Dunhart]

Recidiva wrote...

No.  No chance to argue.  And I tried for three games, raising cunning, race choice and going through the entire rooftop tree of conversation options one by one.  No chance.  I actually came to this site to confirm there was absolutely no way whatsoever to change his mind.  Or I'd be trying ot push level 50 with a cunning of 100 to unlock the damned option.

I didn't realize at all the gate option, because Riordan specifially says to take Alistair, I never questioned it as game canon.  And also because it's intensely "unromantic" and counterintuitive to me entirely.

The WORST part is getting the "Warden Commander" achievement that says I commanded Alistair to kill himself when I actually was doing my damnedest through several playthroughs to PREVENT it. 

It comes down to what you think is the greater sacrifice. Dying for your loved one or staying behind to mourn them for the rest of your life. Alistair has the disadvantage of being brought up to believe the former, apparently.

He really does have the tendency to show some backbone at the worst possible moments, doesn't he.


Also, it's not like you HAVE to make him the damn king, he doesn't even want it. That's all "The world according to YOU" part. If you get ditched for playing with his fragile little mind and propagating his duty on him, don't act surprised when he ditches you in favour of it.

Modifié par Dunhart, 14 décembre 2009 - 08:07 .

[Recidiva]

Colenda wrote...

To be rejected on race and class is enough. To then have him decide he's taking the final blow despite my orders because I'm a girl...worse.

Um - he decides he's taking the final blow because he loves you, surely?

And his love is stronger than mine and his will stronger than mine...because?  

[Recidiva]

Colenda wrote...

Perhaps Bioware should have implemented the option to have an Alistair vs. PC brawl on the top of the tower.

PC: No I'M dying!  *left hook*
Alistair: No I'M going to die! *head butt*

That's all I'm asking.  I desperately want a "clock Alistair and drag him behind a ballista* patch.

But I just leave him at the gate.

[SarEnyaDor]

he runs faster with that sword???

[Recidiva]

SarEnyaDor wrote...

he runs faster with that sword???

Not...Good...Enough...

[Recidiva]

Dunhart wrote...

It comes down to what you think is the greater sacrifice. Dying for your loved one or staying behind to mourn them for the rest of your life. Alistair has the disadvantage of being brought up to believe the former, apparently.
He really does have the tendency to show some backbone at the worst possible moments, doesn't he.

I had backbone the whole time!  I have more practice at the whole "backbone" thing!  Plus I purposely kept his strength and cunning low...just in case it came to that.  High constitution so he could survive behind that ballista for a while....

[SarEnyaDor]

That glowing kiss was pretty sweet though

[Recidiva]

SarEnyaDor wrote...

That glowing kiss was pretty sweet though

...and a perfect opportunity to knock him out.

[Thiefy]

I don't know what to tell you then. There's that one line Flemmeth says "Open one's arms wide enough or shut ones eyes tight - either way one is a fool," is the only thing I can think of. There were plenty of vibes as you put it, whether or not you choose to acknowledge them is another thing. Are you upset that Alistair just didn't come out and say to your face? He has made a few mentions of it but for him to come out and flatly say "You are a peasant elf and therefor unfit to be with me" before turning him to a king is OOC for him. Especially considering he has no psychic powers that will tell him you will put him up to be king. Otherwise he is perfectly happy to be with you. Then there is also the fact that you didn't even mention he is still willing to be with you and be the King if you harden him.



He didn't disobey your orders because you are girl, he did it because he was in love with you. Try going the whole game without romancing him and see if he still jumps the dragon for you if his affinity is at 0.

All that adds up to is "The World According to Alistair" and I thought it was my game. Guess not.

And there-in lies root of the problem. This isn't your game. Nor is it Alistair's. You are really just a pawn and an observer in a story being told. While you are a catalyst for many things that must be done, it really doesn't matter if you, me or some other random body does it so long as the job gets done. All the choices and cusomizations are just illusions to complete freedom. "My story" is only valid up to a certain point and after that you are just beating your head to a brick wall, because the reality is there *has* to be limitation somewhere.

[Asylumer]

Colenda wrote...

To be rejected on race and class is enough. To then have him decide he's taking the final blow despite my orders because I'm a girl...worse.

Um - he decides he's taking the final blow because he loves you, surely?

Perhaps Bioware should have implemented the option to have an Alistair vs. PC brawl on the top of the tower.

PC: No I'M dying!  *left hook*
Alistair: No I'M going to die! *head butt*

My plan was to sucker punch him then go running in for the kill. Yet sadly no option presented itself.

[Kohaku]

Colenda wrote...

To be rejected on race and class is enough. To then have him decide he's taking the final blow despite my orders because I'm a girl...worse.

Um - he decides he's taking the final blow because he loves you, surely?

Perhaps Bioware should have implemented the option to have an Alistair vs. PC brawl on the top of the tower.

PC: No I'M dying!  *left hook*
Alistair: No I'M going to die! *head butt*

That's funny. I'd pay to see that. He could be the final battle. Forget the Dark Spawn, Alistair is the true threat.

Modifié par Kerridan Kaiba, 14 décembre 2009 - 08:20 .

[sagefic]

robertthebard wrote...

I think Alistair loves the idea of loving the PC, but as somebody mentioned earlier about making decisions, he can't stop waffling there either, especially with non Noble PC's.  

ja. this is true.

oddly enough, with my human noble, i felt like there was LESS romance w/ Alistair than with my mage. i actually noticed that if you're a mage and choose the "I am indeed a mage" option when you first meet him, he gives you this kind of goofy little grin thing. later, i found i was on the romance-influence scale. with the noble, you have to actually do or say something deliberate (some more obvious than others) to cause him to switch to the romance influence scale from the friendly one. but it seems that with the mage, you're there from the start.  so that made me think that - like his magic action figure fetish, Alistair has a thing for mages.

too bad i could see as soon as he revealed his birthright that a mage as queen was going to go over with the kingdom like Oghren tied to a balloon. still, i thought the mage/Alistair thing had the most chemistry (seriously, if you've been shut in a tower with the likes of Jowan...) UNTIL the scene with cullen in the tower.

whew! i seriously thought that Cullen showed all the passion and romance and sincerity that Alistair did not, all in his what, 2 minute cutscene. i just thought, "dang! hold the phone - or whatever we use in Ferelden... Can I trade this templar for the one I got? cause..." I wanted to petition Gregor then and there to bring cullen with me. "I need him to fight the darkspawn, sir."

but i digress...

[Mary Kirby]

Recidiva wrote...

Colenda wrote...

To be rejected on race and class is enough. To then have him decide he's taking the final blow despite my orders because I'm a girl...worse.

Um - he decides he's taking the final blow because he loves you, surely?

And his love is stronger than mine and his will stronger than mine...because?  

Honestly, I think this just reinforces what David said.  You get a lot of opportunity to control Alistair.  You dictate his actions in combat, and in conversation, you are always in control.  That's not a realistic expectation to create, and maybe making him a little bit less interactive would have helped.  What does "comparative strength of will and/or love" have to do with anything?  Does your love or your willpower make you faster than him? I've been married to my husband for almost ten years, and I can't get him to stop leaving his dirty socks on the living room floor.   I don't anticipate that I can suddenly talk him out of running in front of me, if that's what he decides to do, or that I will gain a magical burst of speed upon demand because I love him the most.

[Recidiva]

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

I don't know what to tell you then. There's that one line Flemmeth says "Open one's arms wide enough or shut ones eyes tight - either way one is a fool," is the only thing I can think of. There were plenty of vibes as you put it, whether or not you choose to acknowledge them is another thing. Are you upset that Alistair just didn't come out and say to your face? He has made a few mentions of it but for him to come out and flatly say "You are a peasant elf and therefor unfit to be with me" before turning him to a king is OOC for him. Especially considering he has no psychic powers that will tell him you will put him up to be king. Otherwise he is perfectly happy to be with you. Then there is also the fact that you didn't even mention he is still willing to be with you and be the King if you harden him.

He didn't disobey your orders because you are girl, he did it because he was in love with you. Try going the whole game without romancing him and see if he still jumps the dragon for you if his affinity is at 0.

And there-in lies root of the problem. This isn't your game. Nor is it Alistair's. You are really just a pawn and an observer in a story being told. While you are a catalyst for many things that must be done, it really doesn't matter if you, me or some other random body does it so long as the job gets done. All the choices and cusomizations are just illusions to complete freedom. "My story" is only valid up to a certain point and after that you are just beating your head to a brick wall, because the reality is there *has* to be limitation somewhere.

I've played through the game about seven times, only three resulted in Alistair doomage because then I came here and developed alternate strategies once I knew "my way" was impossible.  The strength of the game is that I did assume "my way" was in there somewhere.  Not their fault they're that good and I thought it was possible.

All criticisms do not really have to do with me getting worked up personally.  It has to do with me trying to figure out consistencies in game mechanics and characters that I'm assuming are there if I just try hard enough.  Alas, clapping as hard as I can will not bring Tinkerbell back to life.

I'm really just a gamer playing a game who imagined different endings for herself and that's fine for what it is. 

The only effect this has had on my real life is my husband also saying he wouldn't let me die, which just means I need to take the opportunity to clock him one should it present itself in an emergency situation.  Good to know.

Nobody can really explain why it's the guy's choice.  And that's of interest.  Strategically.

[tigrina]

Dunhart wrote...
Also, it's not like you HAVE to make him the damn king, he doesn't even want it. That's all "The world according to YOU" part. If you get ditched for playing with his fragile little mind and propagating his duty on him, don't act surprised when he ditches you in favour of it.

This is not exactly true. If you harden him during his personal quest, he actually *wants* to become a king. It is just that you tend to find out these things at the worst possible moments.

And if I want to sacrifice myself out of love for him, and he wants to do the same, give me my player agency back and let me. It is supposed to be my choice and even gameplay wise I'm a very sad panda to leave him at the gates. How do you expect me to do those last fights without my tank?

[David Gaider]

So... am I reading this right? Alistair sacrificing himself to save the woman he loves is... sexist? 

[Recidiva]

Mary Kirby wrote...

Honestly, I think this just reinforces what David said.  You get a lot of opportunity to control Alistair.  You dictate his actions in combat, and in conversation, you are always in control.  That's not a realistic expectation to create, and maybe making him a little bit less interactive would have helped.  What does "comparative strength of will and/or love" have to do with anything?  Does your love or your willpower make you faster than him? I've been married to my husband for almost ten years, and I can't get him to stop leaving his dirty socks on the living room floor.   I don't anticipate that I can suddenly talk him out of running in front of me, if that's what he decides to do, or that I will gain a magical burst of speed upon demand because I love him the most.

I think "comparative strength of will and/or love" is...kinda the building blocks of romance.

I probably wouldn't care about the dirty socks. But I would expect to be consulted about things I did care about.  Like...say...death.

And he's the one with the magical burst of speed.  I'm left there with nothing but conversation options that look like I have a choice, but I sure as hell don't.

[Thiefy]

Oh I understand what you mean Recidiva, but I guess to me I would have picked different choices.



For instance, why did Alistair ask to have sex with me in camp? You mean to say all thi time that you were in love with me and we were at Denerim, Redcliffe, Orzamar (assuming the bed is big enough) or in one of the estates, you couldn't have asked me then? When we had beds? And bathes? And suitable amount of coverage so our teammates wouldn't see or overhear us?



I suppose it just comes down to overall allocating time to certain details though. Which kind of sucks since Morrigan got a bed and we didn't. =/ It's kind of messed up she also has sex in your room, but that goes back to the details thing.