329 réponses à ce sujet

[Mary Kirby]

David Gaider wrote...

So... am I reading this right? Alistair sacrificing himself to save the woman he loves is... sexist? 

You pig!

[Thiefy]

Mary Kirby wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

So... am I reading this right? Alistair sacrificing himself to save the woman he loves is... sexist? 

You pig!

Oh man, I'm pretty sure you could hear my laughing on the otherside of the wall.

[mousestalker]

David Gaider wrote...

So... am I reading this right? Alistair sacrificing himself to save the woman he loves is... sexist? 

No, it's actually sweet. Not having a handy bottle to knock him out with was sexist.

[SarEnyaDor]

LMAO!!



I like Alistair, it was so within his character, how anyone could not see that coming a mile away is beyond me ... he even tries to sacrifice himself if you're just his buddy guy, but you can guilt him into being a good king instead, but seriously i don't know any man or woman who would willingly let the person they love die if it was at ALL in their power to stop it.

[Dunhart]

David Gaider wrote...

So... am I reading this right? Alistair sacrificing himself to save the woman he loves is... sexist? 

Sexist? No. Selfish? Maybe.

It's a very old-fashioned and male thing to assume that dying is somehow worse than being left behind to mourn.

[Recidiva]

David Gaider wrote...

So... am I reading this right? Alistair sacrificing himself to save the woman he loves is... sexist? 

No, that's not reading it right.  Not exactly.  I'm not sure there's words for the complexity, but I'll try.

As a WOMAN...no guy has explained to me how this works.  What makes it fair or right.  It just IS.  Every male asked this question dismisses it as a silly question.  No man lets his woman die.

Even my husband.

There's no logic to this, just heart.  The fact that my husband secretly loves Alistair for taking the final blow means to me that it's something deeply TRUE that I can access simply because I want to be the one doing it, and can't access because I can't be the one doing it. 

That does NOT mean I have to like it, but there you have it.  I think in that one case, it's absolutely dead true to a man in love.  And that's...well, that's disturbing.  The weird part is it's also dead true to a woman in love and I can't do it.

I do really get it...and appreciate it...as a person.

I'll still try to knock my husband out if he tries to do it, see if I don't.

The essence is not about sexism.  It's about "what about me, why don't I get a say?"

And the silly talking part of it can say "Is it 'cause I'm a girl?"  The rest goes much deeper and is actually one of the themes in the story that has hit me the hardest. 

The fact is, every male I've asked about it, dismisses the idea that I should be the one allowed to take the final blow, and there's no reason for it.  That's just how it is.

I GET it.  I do.  And I'm not calling sexism as much as I am "Why?  Why not me?"

It's one of the most tragic moments for a reason.  Personally if he'd done that I would have stepped right off the other side of the tower...immediately.

[Taleroth]

Mary Kirby wrote...

Recidiva wrote...

Colenda wrote...

To be rejected on race and class is enough. To then have him decide he's taking the final blow despite my orders because I'm a girl...worse.

Um - he decides he's taking the final blow because he loves you, surely?

And his love is stronger than mine and his will stronger than mine...because?  

Honestly, I think this just reinforces what David said.  You get a lot of opportunity to control Alistair.  You dictate his actions in combat, and in conversation, you are always in control.  That's not a realistic expectation to create, and maybe making him a little bit less interactive would have helped.  What does "comparative strength of will and/or love" have to do with anything?  Does your love or your willpower make you faster than him? I've been married to my husband for almost ten years, and I can't get him to stop leaving his dirty socks on the living room floor.   I don't anticipate that I can suddenly talk him out of running in front of me, if that's what he decides to do, or that I will gain a magical burst of speed upon demand because I love him the most.

Are you trying to say that it's impossible for you to put your dirty socks on the floor before your husband manages to put his down?

Obviously, if Alistair loves the PC so much that he's willing to sacrifice himself, it should go that the PC is allowed the option to sacrifice herself first out of her love.  What is it that automatically demands Alistair gets a headstart?

Modifié par Taleroth, 14 décembre 2009 - 08:39 .

[SarEnyaDor]

Those boys of Maric.....

[Mary Kirby]

Taleroth wrote...

Obviously, if Alistair loves the PC so much that he's willing to sacrifice himself, it should go that the PC is allowed the option to sacrifice herself first out of her love.  What is it that automatically demands Alistair gets a headstart?

The PC has the option to do that.  Leave Alistair behind.  Nobody ever said you would get the option to succeed at everything simply because you want to.

[Recidiva]

Mary Kirby wrote...

The PC has the option to do that.  Leave Alistair behind.  Nobody ever said you would get the option to succeed at everything simply because you want to.

Here's where I call Kobayashi Maru.  There'll be a mod...some day.  I'm waiting.

In the meantime, I'll leave him at the gates.

And telling me I can't have what I want is just...mean.  You're mean.

[Jhourney]

Figured I would find out what my boyfriend thought of this whole subject. Funny thing is, he responded with the question if there wasn't an option to "Fight together and Die together" in some heroic, romantic sacrifice. The sword sure is big enough for an extra set of hands.

[Taleroth]

Mary Kirby wrote...

 Nobody ever said you would get the option to succeed at everything simply because you want to.

There's a difference between "succeed at everything simply because you want to" and "automatic failure, don't bother."  There's plenty of ways a female PC could make the sacrifice first without leaving Alistair behind.

On one hand, it's extra complication to try to account for any of these factors (any number of stat checks could suffice).  On the other hand, it's already extra complication to account for the relationship status to produce the automatic decision.  Seems arbitrary.

It reeks of service to drama, really.

Modifié par Taleroth, 14 décembre 2009 - 08:56 .

[Recidiva]

Jhosephine wrote...

Figured I would find out what my boyfriend thought of this whole subject. Funny thing is, he responded with the question if there wasn't an option to "Fight together and Die together" in some heroic, romantic sacrifice. The sword sure is big enough for an extra set of hands.

Amen.

[tigrina]

Mary Kirby wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

Obviously, if Alistair loves the PC so much that he's willing to sacrifice himself, it should go that the PC is allowed the option to sacrifice herself first out of her love.  What is it that automatically demands Alistair gets a headstart?

The PC has the option to do that.  Leave Alistair behind.  Nobody ever said you would get the option to succeed at everything simply because you want to.

It requires metagaming knowledge to do this. Not having the option of choice when you've already stated you *will* do the killing blow is just..

Ah well, no point to this. I just disagree.

[Namirsolo]

I certainly hope people aren't trying to say that Alistair refusing to let you die is sexist. If you're not playing as a human noble with high enough coercion to convince the landsmeet to let you rule (which is probably most of the female characters) then he has broken up with you at that point. Part of the reason that he wants to sacrifice for you is that he decides he was an idiot about it. He still loves you, but knows that there's no way you can be together (unless you hardened him, I guess). At this point, the question is "Would Alistair let you die in this situation?" I think the answer to this is clearly no.

I don't think there's anything sexist about this. Most games will not let your character die in the resolution to the plot. It is generally considered to be what you probably want least to happen. It makes sense that game design would make it impossible if you bring him along to the arch demon. I'd expect the same thing  if the sexes of the characters were reversed.

I'd also like to echo the fact that I love the way the romances are set up in this game. I would hate to see future Bioware games have them scaled back. I love rpgs and I've always enjoyed the romance options. I have to say, though, that I think Zevran is a much better character than Alistair and his reasons for following are much more understandable than Alistair's (life debt? Kotor throwback? ) and I love the idea of assasin-turned-lover.

I see Xander in Alistair's humor and I appreciate it. I don't think there is anything plagaristic about it. I don't, however, see any of Spike in Zevran. But maybe that's because I can't get the sixth season shenanigans out of my mind. If the inspiration was how Spike was when he was first on the show, then yeah I can definitely see that. But I don't think either character is an exact copy of their inspirtation, there are just some aspects of them that I can say "Yeah, I see that" too.

[David Gaider]

Jhosephine wrote...
Figured I would find out what my boyfriend thought of this whole subject. Funny thing is, he responded with the question if there wasn't an option to "Fight together and Die together" in some heroic, romantic sacrifice. The sword sure is big enough for an extra set of hands.

Sounds great! Now let's fit that into the budget of the single ending cutscene, so that it can be used along with all the different endings!

[Recidiva]

Colenda wrote...

Okay - I think I understand now. Yes, I can sympathise with that view. Not sure I agree with it entirely, but I do get where you're coming from.

Albeit, I think it's slightly undercut by the opportunity to leave Alistair behind at the gate. (You can do that, right?)

So - the situation: we have Alistair plus PC at the top of the tower: they're in love. Alistair hasn't told the PC about his plans, but he's wondering how fast he can run in his full plate armour, and the PC is wondering how fast she can cast a freezing spell. Alistair's in love and wrapped up in his grand romantic idea of killing the dragon and saving his lover at the cost of his life. How would you resolve it? Let the PC grab Alistair and talk him out of it? Put in a Brunhilde option (though suttee isn't usually considered to be hugely empowering to its principal actors)? Or would you readjust the whole game, so that a male PC also has to stand ineffectuallly by while his woman kills the dragon?

ETA: If I could change anything about the final section, I'd tweak Riordan's lines just a little, to make it very clear that you don't have to bring Alistair/Loghain to the tower if you don't want to.

Okay, take sex out of it.  Two men or two women.  Two lizards.  Why does the NPC get the choice?

It all revolves about how a man doesn't let his woman die.  That does make it an issue about gender and love, and if someone doesn't like the word "sexism" then let's pick something less scary.  Why is the male protecting the female if the female's actually been protecting and guiding the male for the game?

How does a woman let her man die?  Or should I have played the game as someone who expected to have my fighting and choices made for me?  Should I have been Anora for the whole thing, sitting in a castle waiting to be rescued?

Why can a male at +100 friendly arrange for Alistair to sacrifice himself?  If love is the difference, why aren't both partners equally motivated to be the ones to make the sacrifice?

For me the game mechanic is already there.  Persuade.

[Recidiva]

David Gaider wrote...

Sounds great! Now let's fit that into the budget of the single ending cutscene, so that it can be used along with all the different endings!

Awwww...David.

Now I feel bad.  I'm sorry.  I feel the urge to bake you cookies.  Good ones.

Thank you for building my playground.  I hope that's inherent in all the "brilliant" comments I've been making and such, but if not, cookies are in order.

[DariusKalera]

Personally, I do not like the Alistair character. I only used him for about half of my first play through because he became annoying. It was not that he disapproved of some of my methods, other party members did as well and I was fine it with it, it was just "him".



I would much have preferred him being an actual partner in your mission instead of a whining bunny child. To me, his personality does not fit the role into which he is placed.



Though, I think this is mainly because, no matter what you do, he has to be around for the Landsmeet. So he is submissive through out the entire game up until the confrontation with Loghain, at which point, he no longer becomes necessary and you get the option to drop him as a party member.

[sagefic]

David Gaider wrote...

Jhosephine wrote...
Figured I would find out what my boyfriend thought of this whole subject. Funny thing is, he responded with the question if there wasn't an option to "Fight together and Die together" in some heroic, romantic sacrifice. The sword sure is big enough for an extra set of hands.

Sounds great! Now let's fit that into the budget of the single ending cutscene, so that it can be used along with all the different endings!

touche.

[Thiefy]

Jhosephine wrote...

Figured I would find out what my boyfriend thought of this whole subject. Funny thing is, he responded with the question if there wasn't an option to "Fight together and Die together" in some heroic, romantic sacrifice. The sword sure is big enough for an extra set of hands.

Sounds good in theory but doesn't that defeat the purpose of "I dont want my lover to die." And in reality even if my PC and Alistair were both shoving the sword through the dragon, you know at the last minute my pc would push him away. Assuming she had enough STR to push aside a full gorwn man wearing massive armor. Not that he would go that far. Or Alistair push her instead.

Personally I think it would have been better if you could have seen my PC running after him trying to pull him off or at least have one of my other party members holding her back. But that is too many 'what ifs' also. That and Morrigan fans also don't get the same courteousy so it's hardly fair.

[Recidiva]

Colenda wrote...

Tsch. No cookies. He and the other devs are still meant to be writing the neverending plot and dialogue that players have demanded. If he makes a start now, he can have a cookie in 2020.

You're mean too.

No cookies for you!

[sagefic]

well, in Alistair's defense, he does inform you early on that he was raised to be a "gentleman" by the chantry. surely they teach their young charges that saving a woman from certain death by taking out the archdemon is a gentlemanly thing to do. if you take issue with his sense of chivalry, i'd say take issue with the chantry that taught it to him.