329 réponses à ce sujet

[robertthebard]

Recidiva wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Will you marry me, I promise, I'll let you kill the Archdemon if it ever comes up...

You had me at "I'll let you kill the Archdemon"!

Yay, cookies all the time, er, woo hoo.

[Recidiva]

tigrina wrote...

Don't be so hard on yourself, I think you explained yourself well! Besides, it has been a good discussion and an informative thread, this one. I'm not so sure you insulted the writers to be honest, definitely not after your explanation, but that is not my call to make.

I just want to be clear so my suggestions or impressions are not interpreted as complaints, but as inspirational take-off points.

There's a line between saying "This made me think and affected me and I've thought about it" and being the girl who cried "ALISTAIR BROKE UP WITH MEEEEE!" and if I think that line is getting blurred, I'll redraw it.

So a brief intermission where the difference between the two can be made is called for.  I might argue later, but there needs to be a set change.

[sagefic]

kuurankuiskaus wrote...

This thread inspired me to doodle!
result: http://kuurankuiskau...ilers-146776224

Sorry, I couldn't help myself. And it's midnight here. I have excuses!

You Are Awesome. You join the PC and Mal Reynolds in awesomeness.

[kuurankuiskaus]

I think I'll have to doodle more often

[tigrina]

Mary Kirby wrote...
Honestly, I think this just reinforces what David said.  You get a lot of opportunity to control Alistair.  You dictate his actions in combat, and in conversation, you are always in control.  That's not a realistic expectation to create, and maybe making him a little bit less interactive would have helped. 

I can see why you both say this, but it is not what I would want to see to be honest. I love it as it is, really. As a proper fangirl, I wish more, surely. But that isn't the point, or at least it wasn't my point.

The events at the Landsmeet feels like a string of events though. As a player you have quite some influence on the outcome, but it still hurts me. It feels like you get a lot of hard choices to chew on in very little game time (taking into account the overall game time, which is quite huge) without the possibility to talk about it.

Or maybe that is exactly what you mean, I don't know. I do know I would rather not have the part up to Landsmeet changed though.

[cpip]

Recidiva wrote...

Thank you.  I draw the line at actually appearing to insult the creator of a game I respect.  Artistic ambitions being different than economic realities is a much more serious thing and demands baked goods.  Or a stew.  Discussing characters in abstract isn't something I wish to do other than to give my appreciative interpretation.  And as it is truly not my world, I'll just bow out of this one and bake.  Chocolate chip are good.  Macadamia and lime are excellent.  Snickerdoodles.  Oatmeal raisin.  Ginger snap tuille.

Sheesh.  I am sad I totally missed most of this conversation while at work, because there was a lot of really interesting stuff thrown around here.

Hopefully I can still snag an oatmeal raisin cookie.  Or try the macadamia and lime.  (I'm allergic to chocolate.)

[Nighteye2]

Mary Kirby wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

Obviously, if Alistair loves the PC so much that he's willing to sacrifice himself, it should go that the PC is allowed the option to sacrifice herself first out of her love.  What is it that automatically demands Alistair gets a headstart?

The PC has the option to do that.  Leave Alistair behind.  Nobody ever said you would get the option to succeed at everything simply because you want to.

But where's the fun in sacrificing yourself for Alistair if you can't do it right in front of his eyes, to make him watch and remember ever after?

[robertthebard]

Nighteye2 wrote...

Mary Kirby wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

Obviously, if Alistair loves the PC so much that he's willing to sacrifice himself, it should go that the PC is allowed the option to sacrifice herself first out of her love.  What is it that automatically demands Alistair gets a headstart?

The PC has the option to do that.  Leave Alistair behind.  Nobody ever said you would get the option to succeed at everything simply because you want to.

But where's the fun in sacrificing yourself for Alistair if you can't do it right in front of his eyes, to make him watch and remember ever after?

That would truly be the ultimate dig on Alistair, although now he has just that much more guilt to carry, since you would be the second Grey Warden that died that he couldn't do anything about.  Even my City Elf female might feel a little sorry for Ferelden then...Hey, I said might.

[Drunkencelt]

Either way, Firefly was one of the best TV shows ever!!!!



Thanks for Fing that up Fox

[Taleroth]

robertthebard wrote...

Nighteye2 wrote...

Mary Kirby wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

Obviously, if Alistair loves the PC so much that he's willing to sacrifice himself, it should go that the PC is allowed the option to sacrifice herself first out of her love.  What is it that automatically demands Alistair gets a headstart?

The PC has the option to do that.  Leave Alistair behind.  Nobody ever said you would get the option to succeed at everything simply because you want to.

But where's the fun in sacrificing yourself for Alistair if you can't do it right in front of his eyes, to make him watch and remember ever after?

That would truly be the ultimate dig on Alistair, although now he has just that much more guilt to carry, since you would be the second Grey Warden that died that he couldn't do anything about.  Even my City Elf female might feel a little sorry for Ferelden then...Hey, I said might.

Can't feel sorry when you're dead.  Just saying.

[robertthebard]

Taleroth wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Nighteye2 wrote...

Mary Kirby wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

Obviously, if Alistair loves the PC so much that he's willing to sacrifice himself, it should go that the PC is allowed the option to sacrifice herself first out of her love.  What is it that automatically demands Alistair gets a headstart?

The PC has the option to do that.  Leave Alistair behind.  Nobody ever said you would get the option to succeed at everything simply because you want to.

But where's the fun in sacrificing yourself for Alistair if you can't do it right in front of his eyes, to make him watch and remember ever after?

That would truly be the ultimate dig on Alistair, although now he has just that much more guilt to carry, since you would be the second Grey Warden that died that he couldn't do anything about.  Even my City Elf female might feel a little sorry for Ferelden then...Hey, I said might.

Can't feel sorry when you're dead.  Just saying.

She did the ritual, after Alistair ran off the the Deep Marches to get drunk, or whereever he went after I spared Loghain.  Little weepy cry baby.

[Kinaori]

Egad, this thread is scaring me! >_<



Suffice it to say, it's clear the bar has been set very high, which is an awesome, awesome thing. I *beg* you not to head backward in the character interaction department ("expectations" be damned). It's a clear differentiator with this game, and a bloody wonderful one.



One can hope that any technical limitations that prevented more of it might be eased in the future... somehow But the envelope has been pushed with this game, no?



Also, *raises hand* Alistair fangirl here. I soooo don't normally admit such things, but there you have it.

[Sandal_Ownz]

Either way, i'd be interested to know what story line Bioware are going with in relation to the sequel cause they'll have to base it off what occured. Personally i think the best one would be Alistair marrying Inora and your Grey warden sacrificing himself, although my favourite is that you go off travelling with Leilana.

[Cybercat999]

Sandal_Ownz wrote...

Either way, i'd be interested to know what story line Bioware are going with in relation to the sequel cause they'll have to base it off what occured. Personally i think the best one would be Alistair marrying Inora and your Grey warden sacrificing himself, although my favourite is that you go off travelling with Leilana.

What kind of sequel is that when the main hero is dead and second hero is occupied with being a king and not available romance wise?
Not to say I absolutely have no intentions of sacrificing myself ever or going anywhere with Leli, she is boring me.

[Sandal_Ownz]

Cybercat999 wrote...

Sandal_Ownz wrote...

Either way, i'd be interested to know what story line Bioware are going with in relation to the sequel cause they'll have to base it off what occured. Personally i think the best one would be Alistair marrying Inora and your Grey warden sacrificing himself, although my favourite is that you go off travelling with Leilana.

What kind of sequel is that when the main hero is dead and second hero is occupied with being a king and not available romance wise?
Not to say I absolutely have no intentions of sacrificing myself ever or going anywhere with Leli, she is boring me.

Well, in the sequel you wouldn't be playing yourself otherwises you'd start at level 20+, i'm guessing you'd start at level 0 with a new hero, possibily a fresh Grey Warden recruit or you may not be a warden at all.

Alistair wouldn't be a party member but you could meet him and he'd be like Arl Eamon was in origins

The previous hero you played could be referred to in a legend or something

Although i'm guessing they'd want to have the son/daughter of morrigan and the hero, you could play him or her possibiliy or he/she could be the villain.

Modifié par Sandal_Ownz, 15 décembre 2009 - 02:09 .

[Cybercat999]

As long as they make Cullen romanceable I really dont care.

[Sandal_Ownz]

He'd be a good party member, take the part of wynne.

[LdyShayna]

Sandal_Ownz wrote...

Either way, i'd be interested to know what story line Bioware are going with in relation to the sequel cause they'll have to base it off what occured. Personally i think the best one would be Alistair marrying Inora and your Grey warden sacrificing himself, although my favourite is that you go off travelling with Leilana.

I'm guessing they're not going to pick any in particular, and if it's mentioned in sequels at all, it will be that the little backwater nation Ferelden claimed to have put down a Blight, but it was probably just some darkspawn raids while they were embroiled in civil war.  Silly Fereldans.

After all, most of the rest of the nations in the land were not inconvenienced at all.

The only thing I suspect they MAY run with is Morrigan's god-baby.

[Sandal_Ownz]

LdyShayna wrote...

Sandal_Ownz wrote...

Either way, i'd be interested to know what story line Bioware are going with in relation to the sequel cause they'll have to base it off what occured. Personally i think the best one would be Alistair marrying Inora and your Grey warden sacrificing himself, although my favourite is that you go off travelling with Leilana.

I'm guessing they're not going to pick any in particular, and if it's mentioned in sequels at all, it will be that the little backwater nation Ferelden claimed to have put down a Blight, but it was probably just some darkspawn raids while they were embroiled in civil war.  Silly Fereldans.

After all, most of the rest of the nations in the land were not inconvenienced at all.

The only thing I suspect they MAY run with is Morrigan's god-baby.

I hope they don't dismiss it, will make me feel as if what i achieved in the last game wasn't as epic as it felt like. You'd think though that the rest of the world got wind of the blight though what with Sten and leilana traveling and morrigan who you ended up with as a friend.

Modifié par Sandal_Ownz, 15 décembre 2009 - 02:29 .

[Daenie]

kuurankuiskaus wrote...

This thread inspired me to doodle!
result: http://kuurankuiskau...ilers-146776224

Sorry, I couldn't help myself. And it's midnight here. I have excuses!

Simply fantastic!

[bobsmyuncle]

Sandal_Ownz wrote...

LdyShayna wrote...

Sandal_Ownz wrote...

Either way, i'd be interested to know what story line Bioware are going with in relation to the sequel cause they'll have to base it off what occured. Personally i think the best one would be Alistair marrying Inora and your Grey warden sacrificing himself, although my favourite is that you go off travelling with Leilana.

I'm guessing they're not going to pick any in particular, and if it's mentioned in sequels at all, it will be that the little backwater nation Ferelden claimed to have put down a Blight, but it was probably just some darkspawn raids while they were embroiled in civil war.  Silly Fereldans.

After all, most of the rest of the nations in the land were not inconvenienced at all.

The only thing I suspect they MAY run with is Morrigan's god-baby.

I hope they don't dismiss it, will make me feel as if what i achieved in the last game wasn't as epic as it felt like. You'd think though that the rest of the world got wind of the blight though what with Sten and leilana traveling and morrigan who you ended up with as a friend.

It was pretty epic, but that doesn't mean anyone in Orlais is going to believe some backwoods nation put down a Blight all by itself. Or if they do, that they won't snark about it ("So what, our chevaliers would have killed the Archdemon in half the time!"). Or if they move the next game far enough away, to Tevinter or Antiva, you might hear rumors of a defeated Blight, but it didn't affect your country so who cares?

I don't think the accomplishment of your PC will be dismissed so much as obfuscated.

Anyway, I'm pretty darn sure the godbaby ending will be grabbed and run away with, because I've never known a writer who could resist a big shiny plot device if it could work. There's too many places it could go, and it would definitely lead to revealing lore about both the darkspawn and the old gods.

[Inakhia]

 Landsmeet is the avalanche.Our party running around previously is getting all those little stones starting to roll.Whats the Kosh quote? " The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote."
At landsmeet we're just hanging on for our lives and trying to survive the ride, which wont stop until the Archdemons dead.

Also Alistair and his choice to kill the demon rather than sacrifice his PC love? Your also forgetting he probably has a *very* unhealthy dose of survivors guilt since Ostagar.Remember how freaked he was when you first walked out of Flemeths hut, how *very*very* relieved he was you where still alive? He isn't going to be the one left behind again if he can help it. Sure it might be the somewhat less cowardly thing to do, but he's not really firing on all cylinders at this point I'm pretty certain. Also between his Chantry and Templar training, its very easy for him to go with that 'Self Sacrifice" for the greater good ideal.:pinched:And yeah, his father figure issues. Running my latest char through Ostagar really drove home some points again. He idolises Duncan, but I don't think he actually knows him very well or understands how brutally practical he can be.So post Ostagar Alistair is suffering from survivors guilt.*Big Red Button* Primary father figure dead of betrayal, then finds out other father figure Eamon also near death from betrayal. Oh look and the same slimy git is responsible for both! *Big Red Button* Coupled with his background, these make sure then while he normally functions fairly well in a party, with a solid leader, come time for certains decisions, of Course if those decisions end up hitting squarely home on his *BRB* he's going to freak and make stupid decisions.He is flawed, believeable and very human.Doesn't mean I still don't want to smack him around the back of the head until he calls uncle.

Modifié par Inakhia, 15 décembre 2009 - 03:25 .

[Vormaerin]

Mary Kirby wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

Obviously, if Alistair loves the PC so much that he's willing to sacrifice himself, it should go that the PC is allowed the option to sacrifice herself first out of her love.  What is it that automatically demands Alistair gets a headstart?

The PC has the option to do that.  Leave Alistair behind.  Nobody ever said you would get the option to succeed at everything simply because you want to.

This is a false solution.  Its pure metagaming and entirely stupid in character.   First of all, the whole point is to have as many gray wardens on hand to kill the demon as possible.   It would be catastrophically stupid to have my character killed by the archdemon and Alistair twiddling his thumbs at the Gate.   Surviving the fight with the archdemon is not a guaranteed event in a roleplaying sense.   There's no reload until we win strategy available in character.

Secondly, if he throws that kind of fit at the final battle, why wouldn't he throw that same fit at the gate?  Or just follow along and turn up at the archdemon fight with all the other named NPCs?

The whole idea that we manage to knock the archdemon unconscious and have a nice little debate before deciding who does the final blow is a bit a of stretch anyway, but it serves a cinematic purpose.   It is kind of annoying that only the man can step up and make the sacrifice, even if it is the cliche.   Men do tend to like the easy way out, which dying heroically often is.   It definitely is for Loghain and Alistair in this case.

Btw, most of us are aware you have limited art resources and can't put in every single option.  The fact that we want more options is not an attack on the designers, but an expression of the fact that the situations and characters matter to us (ie the designers did a good job).

Modifié par Vormaerin, 15 décembre 2009 - 08:41 .

[Estelindis]

David Gaider wrote...

So... am I reading this right? Alistair sacrificing himself to save the woman he loves is... sexist? 

While I wouldn't go that far...

...if you're playing a female City Elf, you've already had one man (who loves you as much as he can in the circumstances) sacrifice himself to save you.  You might not want that to happen again.  You might hope that, if Alistair respects you, he'll let you make the choice to die to save him.  Of course, he kinda does...  In that he lets you leave him at the Gate.  But, in my own way, I find that as implausible as you find our idea that we should be able to talk him out of dying when facing the archdaemon.  I just think not taking the other Grey Warden to face the archdaemon is a really unWardenly thing to do.  It seems selfish to leave him at the Gate just because you love him.  He has the right to fight as much as you...  Because you respect him!

Modifié par Estelindis, 15 décembre 2009 - 06:03 .