329 réponses à ce sujet

[Mary Kirby]

Vormaerin wrote...

This is a false solution.  Its pure metagaming and entirely stupid in character.   First of all, the whole point is to have as many gray wardens on hand to kill the demon as possible.   It would be catastrophically stupid to have my character killed by the archdemon and Alistair twiddling his thumbs at the Gate.   Surviving the fight with the archdemon is not a guaranteed event in a roleplaying sense.   There's no reload until we win strategy available in character.

Secondly, if he throws that kind of fit at the final battle, why wouldn't he throw that same fit at the gate?  Or just follow along and turn up at the archdemon fight with all the other named NPCs?

The whole idea that we manage to knock the archdemon unconscious and have a nice little debate before deciding who does the final blow is a bit a of stretch anyway, but it serves a cinematic purpose.   It is kind of annoying that only the man can step up and make the sacrifice, even if it is the cliche.   Men do tend to like the easy way out, which dying heroically often is.   It definitely is for Loghain and Alistair in this case.

Btw, most of us are aware you have limited art resources and can't put in every single option.  The fact that we want more options is not an attack on the designers, but an expression of the fact that the situations and characters matter to us (ie the designers did a good job).

You think it's metagaming to leave Alistair behind so he doesn't die, but you don't think it's metagaming to assume that you will have some option to decide, in the heat of battle, while you and who knows how many allies are attacking a dragon, who will strike the final blow?  If you bring him to the archdemon, who's to say that one stray sword swing doesn't cost you Alistair, anyway?

[sagefic]

Cybercat999 wrote...

As long as they make Cullen romanceable I really dont care.

Ha! Another Cullen fan. I knew there were more out there. Seriously, of all the NPCs in the game I wanted to recruit, it was Cullen. Can't I pull that conscription thing? Can't I?

[DeathWyrmNexus]

Cybercat999 wrote...

Recidiva wrote...

In the Korcari Wilds, Alistair is an excellent leader, making clear he's there to protect you, sense darkspawn, but not make it easy for you.

And then he falls to pieces.

It would have been much more helpful had they not had that scene at all.  He's got just the right leadership tone and toughness.  Which makes it jarring when suddenly he can't summon that tone or toughness ever again.

This. I noticed that too.
I cant believe that Duncans death can so totally screw up a guy that he develops completely different personality. Alistair at Ostragar and Alistair in the rest of the game are not the same people.

The one person who believed in Alistair as Alistair died... Yea, I can see that changing somebody. How many of you actually payed attention to what Alistair had to say?

Alistair isn't supposed to be Mal, parts of Mal are supposed to be there.

... Ya know what, I'm going to stop right there. Everytime I read these threads, I feel like paying attention is a dying art.

[TheRealIncarnal]

Wait.. is this a debate about whether or not the death of someone very close to someone else can cause sudden and massive personality changes?



I suppose it's fortunate for those of you who don't know the answer, but I can attest that the answer is undoubtedly yes.



Stop and think about it for a second, because the characters here, are actually rather deep in this game. Alistair is a bastard, rejected by his father and hidden away with Arl Eamon. Then his adoptive father (Arl Eamon) rejects him and hides him away at the Chantry. Talk about the mother of father related rejection issues!



So, there's this young man who feels that every man who he looks up to is going to reject him because of who he inherently is, when suddenly Duncan comes on the scene and thinks so much of Alistair that he steals him away from his hiding in the Chantry to join his elite and special group. From there it's very clear in Alistair's stories about his time with the Grey Wardens that Duncan is very much a father figure to him, and Duncan also clearly cares so much for Alistair that he is unwilling to risk his loss in battle. While this clearly annoys Alistair, who wants to impress Duncan in battle, you can see that he understands why Duncan does this.



Then suddenly, Duncan dies in the battle that Alistair felt that he should have been in. The only person who believed in him, and the man who was much more supportive of him than either his father or Eamon, is gone one day.



That's how you get the Post-Ostagar Alistair from the previous Alistair.

[Sandal_Ownz]

I thought cullen was the kid you sent off to the magi circle >.<

[Kohaku]

Sandal_Ownz wrote...

I thought cullen was the kid you sent off to the magi circle >.<

That's Connor.

[DariusKalera]

TheRealIncarnal wrote...

Wait.. is this a debate about whether or not the death of someone very close to someone else can cause sudden and massive personality changes?

I suppose it's fortunate for those of you who don't know the answer, but I can attest that the answer is undoubtedly yes.

Stop and think about it for a second, because the characters here, are actually rather deep in this game. Alistair is a bastard, rejected by his father and hidden away with Arl Eamon. Then his adoptive father (Arl Eamon) rejects him and hides him away at the Chantry. Talk about the mother of father related rejection issues!

So, there's this young man who feels that every man who he looks up to is going to reject him because of who he inherently is, when suddenly Duncan comes on the scene and thinks so much of Alistair that he steals him away from his hiding in the Chantry to join his elite and special group. From there it's very clear in Alistair's stories about his time with the Grey Wardens that Duncan is very much a father figure to him, and Duncan also clearly cares so much for Alistair that he is unwilling to risk his loss in battle. While this clearly annoys Alistair, who wants to impress Duncan in battle, you can see that he understands why Duncan does this.

Then suddenly, Duncan dies in the battle that Alistair felt that he should have been in. The only person who believed in him, and the man who was much more supportive of him than either his father or Eamon, is gone one day.

That's how you get the Post-Ostagar Alistair from the previous Alistair.

Well, it could also be that Duncan knew who Alistair was.  His caring for Alistair might not have been any more than him, Duncan, seeing Alistair as a tool that he could put on the throne and use if Cailan died during the fighting.

[Thiefy]

Sandal_Ownz wrote...

I thought cullen was the kid you sent off to the magi circle >.<

cullen is the guy that was trapped in the force field at the top of the tower

[Estelindis]

Mary Kirby wrote...
You think it's metagaming to leave Alistair behind so he doesn't die, but you don't think it's metagaming to assume that you will have some option to decide, in the heat of battle, while you and who knows how many allies are attacking a dragon, who will strike the final blow?  If you bring him to the archdemon, who's to say that one stray sword swing doesn't cost you Alistair, anyway?

Personally, I thought that was metagaming too.    Which is why I was rather miffed when, after my character got the big, awesome, messy-dragon-death animation, Alistair had time for a little conversation to explain that he was going to take the final blow that I thought she just took.  (Ideally, I would have liked for them to discuss the whole matter the night before and reach a decision then.  But then again, I would have liked them to have the whole "we may not have a romantic future if I'm going to be king" discussion before they slept together too.  Bah, my character and her sense of actually considering the consequences of her actions before taking them...  Not very dramatic, eh?)

[CarlSpackler]

  Just now read through a little of this thread, mostly the dev posts.  I looked at it out of curiousity as I was a Firefly fan myself and found that the thread moved to an altogether different subject.  

  I would like to say that I get what David is saying regarding the less is more argument.  I mentioned something to this effect myself in one of my posts praising the devs on the NPCs of this game.  I mentioned that Bioware had seemed to produce a type of uncanny valley effect with regard to the writing.  Still I would hardley want Bioware to pull back from what they acomplished here.  The NPCs in this game were so amazingly fun and real due in large part to the sheer amount of dialogue options.  There will always be folks who want more, myself included, and until the day comes with true AI running amok in games that desire won't likely be sated (even then people find something to complain about.)

  The devs speak of perhaps restricting some of the NPC interaction in an attempt to leave more to the imagination under the assumption that this will be a net gain for enjoyment of the game.  I know from my perspective it would not be so.  Quite the contrary, I think Bioware raised the bar with regard to NPC dialogue.  I get that some players are disapointed and griping, and yet the emotional attatchment can only be a good thing.  And while they may rail against the options not covered, I would be willing to bet they find themselves looking for another game that delivered such a detailed cast of characters.  So I guess take this as an impassioned plea to keep going down the road you paved with DAO.  I fully realize time, resources, etc all play into the content to keep or discard, but keep the level of character interaction as high as time/resource/etc allows.  Thanks.

Modifié par CarlSpackler, 15 décembre 2009 - 07:12 .

[sagefic]

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

Sandal_Ownz wrote...

I thought cullen was the kid you sent off to the magi circle >.<

cullen is the guy that was trapped in the force field at the top of the tower

if you play as a fem mage he's got the hots for you. again - wanted to party him.

[Recidiva]

DeathWyrmNexus wrote...

The one person who believed in Alistair as Alistair died... Yea, I can see that changing somebody. How many of you actually payed attention to what Alistair had to say?

Alistair isn't supposed to be Mal, parts of Mal are supposed to be there.

... Ya know what, I'm going to stop right there. Everytime I read these threads, I feel like paying attention is a dying art.

And for most Origins, the character is in the same boat.  It's not a lack of paying attention.  It's really a form of hey, I get it, My family just got murdered.  I just got raped.  I just lost my heritage and was left for dead in the deep roads.  I just broke out of prison where awful things were going to happen and i can't see my family or home again. I had to leave my clan because I've been tainted.  I was taken as a child and raised by people who hated me and were watching me every moment for signs that meant they'd have to kill me.

I'm afraid things are tough all over in Ferelden.  So it's not that I don't appreciate character construction, it's just that Alistair is not in any way unique in this regard.  And there's no "in game" option to change that.  It's not the "not getting it" it's the "Okay, I paid attention to Alistair, is anybody paying attention to the PC?"

If there had been an in-game option to have him leave due to PTSD, I would have taken it.  The only time you get to say "Hey, we're in over our heads and I've been a gray warden for about 12 hours" is at Flemeth's Hut, and if you do that, Alistair begs you to not leave.  So you can pay attention and honor what he wants, but sauce for the NPC is sauce for the PC. 

[Thiefy]

sagequeen wrote...

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

Sandal_Ownz wrote...

I thought cullen was the kid you sent off to the magi circle >.<

cullen is the guy that was trapped in the force field at the top of the tower

if you play as a fem mage he's got the hots for you. again - wanted to party him.

oh i know, i have a female mage, just havent finished the origins for it yet. cullen is such a cute guy too, i bet he would be a lost puppy just like alistair lol

[HarlequinDream]

Estelindis wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

So... am I reading this right? Alistair sacrificing himself to save the woman he loves is... sexist? 

While I wouldn't go that far...

...if you're playing a female City Elf, you've already had one man (who loves you as much as he can in the circumstances) sacrifice himself to save you.  You might not want that to happen again.  You might hope that, if Alistair respects you, he'll let you make the choice to die to save him.  Of course, he kinda does...  In that he lets you leave him at the Gate.  But, in my own way, I find that as implausible as you find our idea that we should be able to talk him out of dying when facing the archdaemon.  I just think not taking the other Grey Warden to face the archdaemon is a really unWardenly thing to do.  It seems selfish to leave him at the Gate just because you love him.  He has the right to fight as much as you...  Because you respect him!

One thing I can say is this...

It's not really a "sit down and talk about it" situation. Yes, the Archdemon is down, but who's to say a mass of darkspawn aren't coming to save it? Or that it won't shake off the injuries in a minute?

Not that I'd mind being able to down Alistair and take the final blow, but it's not really a moment for discussion. It's a moment for action.

[DeathWyrmNexus]

HarlequinDream wrote...

Estelindis wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

So... am I reading this right? Alistair sacrificing himself to save the woman he loves is... sexist? 

While I wouldn't go that far...

...if you're playing a female City Elf, you've already had one man (who loves you as much as he can in the circumstances) sacrifice himself to save you.  You might not want that to happen again.  You might hope that, if Alistair respects you, he'll let you make the choice to die to save him.  Of course, he kinda does...  In that he lets you leave him at the Gate.  But, in my own way, I find that as implausible as you find our idea that we should be able to talk him out of dying when facing the archdaemon.  I just think not taking the other Grey Warden to face the archdaemon is a really unWardenly thing to do.  It seems selfish to leave him at the Gate just because you love him.  He has the right to fight as much as you...  Because you respect him!

One thing I can say is this...

It's not really a "sit down and talk about it" situation. Yes, the Archdemon is down, but who's to say a mass of darkspawn aren't coming to save it? Or that it won't shake off the injuries in a minute?

Not that I'd mind being able to down Alistair and take the final blow, but it's not really a moment for discussion. It's a moment for action.

Then you have that pesky genetic drive that men are expendable and protecting your woman is key. It is sexist but it is also what pretty much any man I know would do for their woman. We don't even think about it. So yea, I found it to be a very honest decision for him to make.

[Nighteye2]

Mary Kirby wrote...
You think it's metagaming to leave Alistair behind so he doesn't die, but you don't think it's metagaming to assume that you will have some option to decide, in the heat of battle, while you and who knows how many allies are attacking a dragon, who will strike the final blow?  If you bring him to the archdemon, who's to say that one stray sword swing doesn't cost you Alistair, anyway?

Even so, it is odd if the PC gets to do the death blow-animation, and then Alistair gets the cutscene replay of the death blow...

[DeathWyrmNexus]

Recidiva wrote...

DeathWyrmNexus wrote...

The one person who believed in Alistair as Alistair died... Yea, I can see that changing somebody. How many of you actually payed attention to what Alistair had to say?

Alistair isn't supposed to be Mal, parts of Mal are supposed to be there.

... Ya know what, I'm going to stop right there. Everytime I read these threads, I feel like paying attention is a dying art.

And for most Origins, the character is in the same boat.  It's not a lack of paying attention.  It's really a form of hey, I get it, My family just got murdered.  I just got raped.  I just lost my heritage and was left for dead in the deep roads.  I just broke out of prison where awful things were going to happen and i can't see my family or home again. I had to leave my clan because I've been tainted.  I was taken as a child and raised by people who hated me and were watching me every moment for signs that meant they'd have to kill me.

I'm afraid things are tough all over in Ferelden.  So it's not that I don't appreciate character construction, it's just that Alistair is not in any way unique in this regard.  And there's no "in game" option to change that.  It's not the "not getting it" it's the "Okay, I paid attention to Alistair, is anybody paying attention to the PC?"

If there had been an in-game option to have him leave due to PTSD, I would have taken it.  The only time you get to say "Hey, we're in over our heads and I've been a gray warden for about 12 hours" is at Flemeth's Hut, and if you do that, Alistair begs you to not leave.  So you can pay attention and honor what he wants, but sauce for the NPC is sauce for the PC. 

And yet, you obviously didn't pay enough attention since Alistair apologizes to you later in the game... The PC didn't have the same experience as Alistair. Perhaps a dwarven commoner or city elf but most of the other origins aren't even close.

[Recidiva]

DeathWyrmNexus wrote...

Then you have that pesky genetic drive that men are expendable and protecting your woman is key. It is sexist but it is also what pretty much any man I know would do for their woman. We don't even think about it. So yea, I found it to be a very honest decision for him to make.

The only way that it's sexist is assuming that women don't have the will or drive to do the same.  Even, say, a stronger will or impulse to do the same.

I found my decision to be very honest as well.  And rather infuriating to be told that what I want makes no sense and I'm unappreciative because I'm a girl.  I don't get it.  It's not getting any better, it's actually getting worse when people explain it. 

It's like trying to grill at my family reunion.  "Women don't like fire." " Women shouldn't be doing this."  "Guys, I make a better barbecue sauce than any of you..." "Hahaha..she's so cute."  and I can just hear when I get steered away from something I'm really good at "You're acting like we're giving you a choice."

I'm a mother with exactly the right sort of mama bear instincts and set of hormones that would require giving my life for someone I love and my mate.  I'm not getting how my impulse is invalid or how I should have just accepted it.  No.  Nope.  Sorry.  Not working for me.

And the more someone tries to explain it to me, I'm finding myself a lot angrier.

I'm going to go put some sear marks on something.

[tmp7704]

Well, i must say this thread (and about million others along these lines) was rather inspirational. So...

http://social.biowar...m/project/1345/

afraid the delivery is nowhere near kuurankuiskaus' take on it but what can i say, there was only so much to work with. Still, if the equal-opportunity sacrifice is the coveted goal, you can now knock yourself out. Or rather, knock a poor man out.

[Recidiva]

tmp7704 wrote...

Well, i must say this thread (and about million others along these lines) was rather inspirational. So...

http://social.biowar...m/project/1345/

afraid the delivery is nowhere near kuurankuiskaus' take on it but what can i say, there was only so much to work with. Still, if the equal-opportunity sacrifice is the coveted goal, you can now knock yourself out. Or rather, knock a poor man out.

Kobayashi Maru!  Woo hoo!

[Thiefy]

lol that is awesome. shame i cant get my pc version to work until i get a new pc >_o and there's no mods for 360 version. someone will have to yuotube that for me. but would this mod affect the ending though?

[DeathWyrmNexus]

Recidiva wrote...

DeathWyrmNexus wrote...

Then you have that pesky genetic drive that men are expendable and protecting your woman is key. It is sexist but it is also what pretty much any man I know would do for their woman. We don't even think about it. So yea, I found it to be a very honest decision for him to make.

The only way that it's sexist is assuming that women don't have the will or drive to do the same.  Even, say, a stronger will or impulse to do the same.

I found my decision to be very honest as well.  And rather infuriating to be told that what I want makes no sense and I'm unappreciative because I'm a girl.  I don't get it.  It's not getting any better, it's actually getting worse when people explain it. 

It's like trying to grill at my family reunion.  "Women don't like fire." " Women shouldn't be doing this."  "Guys, I make a better barbecue sauce than any of you..." "Hahaha..she's so cute."  and I can just hear when I get steered away from something I'm really good at "You're acting like we're giving you a choice."

I'm a mother with exactly the right sort of mama bear instincts and set of hormones that would require giving my life for someone I love and my mate.  I'm not getting how my impulse is invalid or how I should have just accepted it.  No.  Nope.  Sorry.  Not working for me.

And the more someone tries to explain it to me, I'm finding myself a lot angrier.

I'm going to go put some sear marks on something.

Would you let your kids kill themselves for you? Would you let your mate die for you?

If no, then you lack any right to judge Alistair for not letting your PC die. It isn't about the grill. It isn't about who's will is stronger. The fact that you are making a pissing match is rather disgusting. I am simply describing his state of mind and why he did it. It isn't about your validation. <_<

[Wrathra]

Recidiva wrote...

And for most Origins, the character is in the same boat.  It's not a lack of paying attention.  It's really a form of hey, I get it, My family just got murdered.  I just got raped.  I just lost my heritage and was left for dead in the deep roads.  I just broke out of prison where awful things were going to happen and i can't see my family or home again. I had to leave my clan because I've been tainted.  I was taken as a child and raised by people who hated me and were watching me every moment for signs that meant they'd have to kill me.

I'm afraid things are tough all over in Ferelden.  So it's not that I don't appreciate character construction, it's just that Alistair is not in any way unique in this regard.  And there's no "in game" option to change that.  It's not the "not getting it" it's the "Okay, I paid attention to Alistair, is anybody paying attention to the PC?"

If there had been an in-game option to have him leave due to PTSD, I would have taken it.  The only time you get to say "Hey, we're in over our heads and I've been a gray warden for about 12 hours" is at Flemeth's Hut, and if you do that, Alistair begs you to not leave.  So you can pay attention and honor what he wants, but sauce for the NPC is sauce for the PC. 

I don't think the other origins can compare. They were each rough (and I honestly only played three of them so far - city elf, human noble and mage) but at least in city elf and human noble, the PC had a loving family.  The circumstances that got them on the move were not family oriented, they weren't rejected by their parents and shipped off to a monestary.  They were victims of outside influences

The mage origin comes closer to Alistair's than the other two I mentioned, I haven't done the dwarf/dalish yet.

I guess my point is that Alistair was rejected by his father, then by his adoptive father, told that he was nothing and sent into hiding, before Duncan pulled him out.  I'm not saying that the PC's life wasn't turned upside down by something awful, I'm saying that comparing the two is like comparing apples and oranges.  

Modifié par Wrathra, 15 décembre 2009 - 07:58 .

[HarlequinDream]

DeathWyrmNexus wrote...

HarlequinDream wrote...

Estelindis wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

So... am I reading this right? Alistair sacrificing himself to save the woman he loves is... sexist? 

While I wouldn't go that far...

...if you're playing a female City Elf, you've already had one man (who loves you as much as he can in the circumstances) sacrifice himself to save you.  You might not want that to happen again.  You might hope that, if Alistair respects you, he'll let you make the choice to die to save him.  Of course, he kinda does...  In that he lets you leave him at the Gate.  But, in my own way, I find that as implausible as you find our idea that we should be able to talk him out of dying when facing the archdaemon.  I just think not taking the other Grey Warden to face the archdaemon is a really unWardenly thing to do.  It seems selfish to leave him at the Gate just because you love him.  He has the right to fight as much as you...  Because you respect him!

One thing I can say is this...

It's not really a "sit down and talk about it" situation. Yes, the Archdemon is down, but who's to say a mass of darkspawn aren't coming to save it? Or that it won't shake off the injuries in a minute?

Not that I'd mind being able to down Alistair and take the final blow, but it's not really a moment for discussion. It's a moment for action.

Then you have that pesky genetic drive that men are expendable and protecting your woman is key. It is sexist but it is also what pretty much any man I know would do for their woman. We don't even think about it. So yea, I found it to be a very honest decision for him to make.

Because women would never sacrifice themselves for love!

...Yeah, have to disagree there about the "genetic drive." It comes down to personality. Some guys honestly wouldn't care that much if the girl they were sleeping with was going to die unless they killed themselves. Some guys would. Some girls would make sure they took the killing blow, others wouldn't.

Just like, you know, I think I'd take a killing blow to save my girlfriend, and I'm pretty sure, if she had time before I did it, she'd try to argue that she should do it. And, funny, neither of us seem to have the genetics for that drive, if it only occurs in men.

[Recidiva]

DeathWyrmNexus wrote...

Would you let your kids kill themselves for you? Would you let your mate die for you?

If no, then you lack any right to judge Alistair for not letting your PC die. It isn't about the grill. It isn't about who's will is stronger. The fact that you are making a pissing match is rather disgusting. I am simply describing his state of mind and why he did it. It isn't about your validation. <_<

You're describing your state of mind, I'm describing mine.  That's what forums are for.  You play your game, I play mine, and in the end, it's a game.

And don't worry, I shan't turn to you for validation, neither required nor desired.