209 réponses à ce sujet

[Erixxxx]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

1. Believed. No direct evidence.
2. None of the other species where considered worthy of being harvested.

The Reapers have been around for a long time. This cycle is unusual in many ways, this might be one more way.

[Erixxxx]

Reptilian Rob wrote...

Not if I pretend ME3 doesn't exist it doesn't...

That's how bad this **** is, I wish it away. 

And yet you're still here arguing ME3 as if it really is there. You think it's one of the most horribly executed storylines of all time, yet you've spent 4 months dwelling on it. If it really is so bad, walk away and enjoy something else.

[Ticonderoga117]

Erixxxx wrote...

Mr.House wrote...
Ok, then why is Kahlee Sanders and Kai Leng in ME3 if anything not in-game is not canon?

Those are actual Mass Effect stories, not discarded scripts. Give me something a bit more substantial.

Haestrom, Kal'Reegar, Gianna. It's a literary technique called foreshadowing. How often this turned up in un-related missions screamed "I will be a very important issue in the future." At least, until axed to force "Fear the AI's! Fear technology! Adam and Eve! 10,000 years of the dark ages!" came to be the new idea.

[Erixxxx]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

If "still there" means mindless, mostly artificial life forms that sorta look like Protheans... then sure. Me? No. They are all dead or, if they remember anything from before, wishing they were dead. The latter I highly doubt.

That's the difference. We're talking about timeless immortal machines. They're not gonna apply human logic and morality standpoints to their actions. It's all about cold calculus.

[Ticonderoga117]

Erixxxx wrote...
The Reapers have been around for a long time. This cycle is unusual in many ways, this might be one more way.

How so? Harbinger made it perfectly clear. "These races I talk about that are not human aren't worth harvesting for these reasons." They seem picky on who they "harvest and ascend."

[Erixxxx]

[quote]Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Those are actual Mass Effect stories, not discarded scripts. Give me something a bit more substantial.[/quote]

Haestrom, Kal'Reegar, Gianna. It's a literary technique called foreshadowing. How often this turned up in un-related missions screamed "I will be a very important issue in the future." At least, until axed to force "Fear the AI's! Fear technology! Adam and Eve! 10,000 years of the dark ages!" came to be the new idea.

[/quote]

Call that bad writing in the third game if you wish. But the script was still discarded. Currently there is absolutely no corrolation between ME2 mentions and the Reapers in the lore.

[Erixxxx]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Erixxxx wrote...
The Reapers have been around for a long time. This cycle is unusual in many ways, this might be one more way.

How so? Harbinger made it perfectly clear. "These races I talk about that are not human aren't worth harvesting for these reasons." They seem picky on who they "harvest and ascend."

And yet we see plenty of Destroyers around in the 3rd game. Which means that at some point there has been plenty of races suited for the task of becoming them.

[Ticonderoga117]

Erixxxx wrote...
That's the difference. We're talking about timeless immortal machines. They're not gonna apply human logic and morality standpoints to their actions. It's all about cold calculus.

Nor do they apply common sense. Hell, genetically the Collectors ARE a different species from the Protheans. Only small parts of thier DNA resemble Prothean DNA.

Erixxxx wrote...
And yet we see plenty of Destroyers around in
the 3rd game. Which means that at some point there has been plenty of
races suited for the task of becoming them.

Could've been the by-product of having a viable species, but not enough of them.
Humans ~= 11 billion people = Capital Reaper
Another viable race ~= 4 billion = Destroyer.

Simply, we don't know how they were created, but we do know the Reapers don't ascend/harvest everyone.

Modifié par Ticonderoga117, 25 juin 2012 - 03:29 .

[Erixxxx]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Nor do they apply common sense. Hell, genetically the Collectors ARE a different species from the Protheans. Only small parts of thier DNA resemble Prothean DNA.

But the Prothean DNA is still there.

And common sense is also an organic concept. Not applicable to giant robot monsters.

[Erixxxx]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Could've been the by-product of having a viable species, but not enough of them.
Humans ~= 11 billion people = Capital Reaper
Another viable race ~= 4 billion = Destroyer.

Simply, we don't know how they were created, but we do know the Reapers don't ascend/harvest everyone.

No, we don't. Presumably there's some unknown genetic coefficient that needs to be present in order for the mind transfer to be successful. While they don't ascend everyone, they take all that they can.

[Ticonderoga117]

Erixxxx wrote...
But the Prothean DNA is still there.

And common sense is also an organic concept. Not applicable to giant robot monsters.

Our DNA still contains Chimp DNA (I think, since it is 95% the same). Are we chimps? No, we are a different, yet related, species.

Also, common sense would be even more applicable to giant robot monsters. Because they're robots. They don't let organic problems clutter up logic... supposedly.

[Ticonderoga117]

Erixxxx wrote...
No, we don't. Presumably there's some unknown genetic coefficient that needs to be present in order for the mind transfer to be successful. While they don't ascend everyone, they take all that they can.

Mind transfer? I liken the "mind transfer" to what happens to AI's if you swap blueboxes. Sure, you'll get the same starting state, but you won't get the same traits.

Also, they do take all that they can... for ground troops. Reapers? Nuh-uh.

[JShepppp]

The relays were never ours and were the ultimate symbol of Reaper control over evolution. I like that they were destroyed. Otherwise, the Reapers' influence will always be there and we'd never truly be free of the control and constraints they put on our evolution.

We cannot "earn" the relays unless we actually build them. They were borrowed, as was our time until the Reapers came. We ended the cycles, and the relays, the symbol of Reaper control, are okay for me if they're destroyed.

[Ticonderoga117]

JShepppp wrote...

The relays were never ours and were the ultimate symbol of Reaper control over evolution. I like that they were destroyed. Otherwise, the Reapers' influence will always be there and we'd never truly be free of the control and constraints they put on our evolution.

We cannot "earn" the relays unless we actually build them. They were borrowed, as was our time until the Reapers came. We ended the cycles, and the relays, the symbol of Reaper control, are okay for me if they're destroyed.

So... destroying every home system is a good idea eh?

[JShepppp]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

JShepppp wrote...

The relays were never ours and were the ultimate symbol of Reaper control over evolution. I like that they were destroyed. Otherwise, the Reapers' influence will always be there and we'd never truly be free of the control and constraints they put on our evolution.

We cannot "earn" the relays unless we actually build them. They were borrowed, as was our time until the Reapers came. We ended the cycles, and the relays, the symbol of Reaper control, are okay for me if they're destroyed.

So... destroying every home system is a good idea eh?

The home systems aren't destroyed, they're overloaded; the devs said as much.

[Ticonderoga117]

JShepppp wrote...
The home systems aren't destroyed, they're overloaded; the devs said as much.

The game says destoryed. Arrival says destroy = no more solar system. Until shown in the game (probably in the EC), and subverted well, every system a Relay is in is toast. Why? Because they decided it was a major point of Arrival, and dangit, they need to learn to write better if they want to do things like this.

[JShepppp]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

JShepppp wrote...
The home systems aren't destroyed, they're overloaded; the devs said as much.

The game says destoryed. Arrival says destroy = no more solar system. Until shown in the game (probably in the EC), and subverted well, every system a Relay is in is toast. Why? Because they decided it was a major point of Arrival, and dangit, they need to learn to write better if they want to do things like this.

They said it wasn't.

The cutscene also shows a different kind of explosion (red) versus the eezo-fueled one in Arrival.

The clip where it shows relays exploding around the galaxy is nonsensical to take at face value because that means the relay explosions travel thousands of light years in seconds.

[OblivionDawn]

If Bioware really wanted to do the whole "free from the Reapers influence thing," they should have made the Crucible wipe out every single sentient being, organic and synthetic, in the galaxy. Then, for the first time in millions of years, organic life would be able to start anew without Reaper tech to guide and control them.

Modifié par OblivionDawn, 25 juin 2012 - 03:46 .

[Ticonderoga117]

JShepppp wrote...
They said it wasn't.

They can say it in-game. I don't take game plot points from twitter.

The cutscene also shows a different kind of explosion (red) versus the eezo-fueled one in Arrival.

One was caused by a large rock, the other caused by a beam of space magic. Of course they look different. However, not once was Arrival subverted at all.

The clip where it shows relays exploding around the galaxy is nonsensical to take at face value because that means the relay explosions travel thousands of light years in seconds.

Never did take it a face value. It is of course a stylized rendition showing the space magic being spread everywhere at a sped up rate to show "This is Galaxy wide." Arrival still sits firmly on my mind saying "Everyone is more or less dead now."

Modifié par Ticonderoga117, 25 juin 2012 - 03:50 .

[SyntheticPhylum]

The biggest problem with destroying the relays, which BioWare has chosen to completely ignore, no matter how many people have pointed it out, is that destroying ONE relay wiped out the planet(s) in its system. Just one relay. Now, multiply that by the sheer number of relays in the galaxy, and we're talking a Galactic-Scale Extinction Event. The whole galaxy has now been destroyed. Good job, Shepard! Not only have you wiped out all life in the entire galaxy, you've also probably caused EVERY SINGLE SUN in the Milky Way to go supernova... at approximately the same time. I think that destruction on that scale might just spill over into other galaxies in the universe, as well, to say nothing about tearing massive holes in the space-time-continuum and destroying the entire universe...

Good job! That sure broke the cycle!

And even if they completely ignored their own established canon (like they did... this is worse than George Lucas!) and didn't destroy everything, now everybody who survives is going to starve to death, if they don't decide to wipe each other out due to the Sol system being horribly overcrowded, seeing as how there's no FTL travel without the Mass Relays. Sure. BioWare is trying to cover their butts by saying they can be 'rebuilt.' Big problem with that is that no one know how they really work. Not on the scale needed to build them, anyway. It's like some yokel out in the ozarks knows how to check his e-mail or play Flight Simulator, but he sure as frack doesn't know how to build a computer or write code!

[AngryFrozenWater]

MisterJB wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...
Do you understand the principles of the First Contact War? Humans were the entire reason that started, we were about to open up a **** ton of Relays and the Turians tried to stop us, we were a threat to galactic stability. 

The Reapers have no agenda or reason other than a tired "Yo dawg" meme. 

Because the proper action to take when someone drives on the wrong side of the road is to shoot that person, discover where it lives and kill its entire family.
Don'y be naive. Stopping us from opening a Relay is one thing, opening fire first and occupying our territory is a war of conquest.

The Reapers are trying to preserve organic life before we are extinguished by synthetics.

Trying to preserve life? You mean "ascension through destruction", right?

Ascension. Ah. Yes. You mean squashing them to goo alive and push them through tubes to the reaper reproduction machines. A great buzz word that just stands for a horrible way to die and end up as reaper food, or, depending on their usefulness, as cannon fodder or as husks to scare the hell out of those organics in need who the reapers are trying to protect. If there is any resistance then using deceit, in the form of indoctrination, will do just fine. And if it isn't clear that synthetics are a problem the reapers act like intriguers who turn them hostile. Because, you know, it is all for the greater good and it proves that the brat and the reapers can be trusted. It is very heart warming that organics can count on our forced saviors.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 25 juin 2012 - 04:16 .

[Shaigunjoe]

Reptilian Rob wrote...

Erixxxx wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

Do you understand the principles of the First Contact War? Humans were the entire reason that started, we were about to open up a **** ton of Relays and the Turians tried to stop us, we were a threat to galactic stability.

And instead of commencing peaceful relations and politely explaining that what humanity was doing was probably a bad idea, the Turians opened fire and proceeded to occupy a human colony for a month.

The Reapers have no agenda or reason other than a tired "Yo dawg" meme. 

You've either missed an episode, or you don't believe what both ME2 and ME3 has told you about the Reapers and their function.

Again, comparing the Turians to the Reapers. WAT!? Just no. 

Yes, in ME2 I got that they were harvesting for an unknown purpose which was DARK ****ING ENGERY written by Drew. Then in ME3 Walter's magically changed it to "Yo dawg."

I don't think I missed anything other than the plethora of lies. 

I'm pretty sure Drew said on his blog that he never went down the whole line of 'this is what was planned before'.

Besides, dark energy is an awful, awful thing to use as a threat of consumption.  Dark energy is not something that is floating on the horizon eating its way toward the milkway.  The current cosmology model estimates dark energy as being around 75% of the universe's composition, thats right, it like the water of the universe.  We are swimming in it.  Dark energy just isn't threatening.

The circular logic of creating murderous synthetics to prevent you from creating murderous synthetics fits perfectly within the concept of the reapers being lovecraft horror analogues.

[saracen16]

Destroying the relays is symbolic. It marks the end of the order the Reapers created in the galaxy, thus giving all who live in it the chance to evolve on their own without outside intervention.

[GreyLycanTrope]

saracen16 wrote...

Destroying the relays is symbolic. It marks the end of the order the Reapers created in the galaxy, thus giving all who live in it the chance to evolve on their own without outside intervention.

Symbolisim that falls flat on it's face when you realize that the reapers influence still exists in the control and synthesis endings and even in destroy you end up killing all synthetics as a result so their influence is still present relays or no.

[saracen16]

Greylycantrope wrote...

saracen16 wrote...

Destroying the relays is symbolic. It marks the end of the order the Reapers created in the galaxy, thus giving all who live in it the chance to evolve on their own without outside intervention.

Symbolisim that falls flat on it's face when you realize that the reapers influence still exists in the control and synthesis endings and even in destroy you end up killing all synthetics as a result so their influence is still present relays or no.

No, the symbolism is still there. Controlling the Reapers means that they won't be able to exert their influence on organics any longer, assuming that is what Shepard has guided them to. As for synthesis, you've got it completely wrong. Synthesis involves melding the fabric of organic and synthetic beings into one another, not one on top of another like the Reaper forces who are basically Reaper tech that is parasitic with the organic beings. Synthesis is symbiotic, and involves cooperation. The Reapers do not believe in such a thing.