209 réponses à ce sujet

[sp0ck 06]

The relays being destroyed serves two purposes.

Practical: For the Crucible to affect a galaxy wide area, it expended the energy contained within the relays to push its signal throughout the network, thereby destroying the relays.

Symbolic: The relays were really the most powerful weapon used by the Reapers, just as much a tool as the Reaper ships. Sure, having the relays operational would be useful in the short term, and speed the rebuilding process. But as long as the galaxy functioned around the relay network, the rules of the Reapers are still in effect. Progress will be stagnant, as was the case for the asari already. To truly "cleanse" the Reapers from the galaxy, the relays have to go. Leaving them intact would be like using the One Ring to defeat Sauron and "help" middle earth rebuild.

[Taleroth]

sp0ck 06 wrote...

Symbolic: The relays were really the most powerful weapon used by the Reapers, just as much a tool as the Reaper ships. Sure, having the relays operational would be useful in the short term, and speed the rebuilding process. But as long as the galaxy functioned around the relay network, the rules of the Reapers are still in effect. Progress will be stagnant, as was the case for the asari already. To truly "cleanse" the Reapers from the galaxy, the relays have to go. Leaving them intact would be like using the One Ring to defeat Sauron and "help" middle earth rebuild.

The relays were also the most powerful weapon used by the people of the galaxy. The relays are the only reason they defeated the Reapers in the first place. In the end, they proved more valuable to humanity, the asari, the krogans, turians, quarians, and the rest than they were to the Reapers. They provided the people of the galaxy with a powerful means to unity.

By maintaining the idea that the relays belong to the Reapers after even the Reapers are destroyed, you're saying, in essence, that the people of the galaxy didn't deserve to win. The Reapers defeated themselves.

Make no mistake, the people didn't win because they proved themselves better. They didn't win because they proved they didn't need relays. The people won because they proved they could be unified in spite of the Reapers. Destroying the relays is destroying that unity that allowed them to overcome. Ridding themselves of the very thing that proved they were worthy of life.

Modifié par Taleroth, 25 juin 2012 - 04:00 .

[aj2070]

The Angry One wrote...

Uhm... I think synthesis is right!

Noooooo....



I've said before and I'll say it again.  Destroying the relays and citadel is the equalivent of the allies destroying german rocket and aircraft research at the end of World War II just because it was created by the germans.  Look, the enemy was defeated, why toss the tech?

Modifié par aj2070, 25 juin 2012 - 04:02 .

[Kungfu Nando]

Again all these debates and hate could have been avoided with one codex entry or 2-3 lines of dialogue... such a simple mistake and equally easy to fix bioware.

"Hi i'm Emily Wong and this is citadel new net! In the news tonight salarians announce new flt record speeds as they test out a faster more eezo efficiency t drives in hopes of expanding citadel races ability to explore systems without mass relays. They est. a 134% increased speed and a increase for the time need before a core is discharge is require, thanks to assistant for the alliance navy and particular the advances made on the famed SSV Normandy."

Excuse the bad writing made hand and fingers are broken, but you can see that something small like this could have help ease confusion and fear that we have doomed the galaxy.

[Taleroth]

Kungfu Nando wrote...

Excuse the bad writing made hand and fingers are broken, but you can see that something small like this could have help ease confusion and fear that we have doomed the galaxy.

Yes, but it would have been replaced by a bad handwave. A last second unforeshadowed plot development makes imminent tragedy turn out rainbows and candy. That's not particularly satisfying.

[Relwyn]

terdferguson123 wrote...
Except that techonology is often created by those without morality as a priority.

Please provide evidence and reasons as to why you think this is the case. Because I find this to be utterly false and downright not thought-through. In fact technology is created to ease the way of life. Do you realize that you just called humans who have invented inumerable things amoral?

Modifié par Relwyn, 25 juin 2012 - 04:32 .

[taggen86]

It is important to point out that blowing up the relays doesnt necessarily imply the end of the galactic community and starvation (something that many seem to assume).The ending leaves this question open and it is quite possible that bioware will adress the question of space travel without reaper relays more in the EC.
I see two possible solutions:
(1) the protheans managed to build a relay in the first mass effect game. If the different species use that technology together with their long distance communication (which was not dependent on the relays if i remember right) then the galactic community could quickly develop their own relays almost everywhere in the galaxy.
(2) the galactic community could develop more efficient FTL drives.A solution that is almost too simple. However even if they cannot do this common FTL would enable some of the species that are stuck at earth to establish new colonies in other systems and thus prevent starvation. In the long run they could even go home

Modifié par taggen86, 25 juin 2012 - 05:25 .

[terdferguson123]

Relwyn wrote...

terdferguson123 wrote...
Except that techonology is often created by those without morality as a priority.

Please provide evidence and reasons as to why you think this is the case. Because I find this to be utterly false and downright not thought-through. In fact technology is created to ease the way of life. Do you realize that you just called humans who have invented inumerable things amoral?

How about a nuclear weapon? I have a hard time finding any kind of moral reason for it's development or how it eases the way of life. I didn't say that the creators were immoral.. I said that at times morality isn't their top priority in creation, and thus their technologies are often used in ways that they didn't design them for. The point of all this is that technology is something that must be fully understood before it's applied, and being the creator of that device certainly helps in that regard. Of course this is not always the case, in fact it usually isn't as many technologies find other uses throughout time. The moment when technology is handed to us from a vastly technologically superior being, we are skipping the understanding process and going right to applying which can lead to some terrible discoveries.

The bottom line is that despite the uses of the relays, they are incredibly dangerous and most definatley are not fully understood. How would it not be better for organics to build their own? To fully understand their capabilities and to try and work out some of the dangers?

This is just one "plot-hole" that I don't see, in fact I find myself agreeing a great deal with their destruction. If only becuase the rebuilding will improve them, help organics to understand them, and decrease the inherent risks.

Modifié par terdferguson123, 25 juin 2012 - 07:57 .

[CronoDragoon]

I think it should have been your choice to decide to destroy the relays or not. That way, people who like so-and-so symbolism can have things their way and vice versa.

[Godlysnack]

The Angry One wrote...

I realise I was subconciously referencing Babylon 5. Again.
You know that moment when Sheridan and Delenn are looking out at the stars, realising that the galaxy belongs to the younger races now? Yeah. Why didn't Mass Effect have that moment!

Casey and mac were just finishing up Deus Ex when writing the endings.. Maybe someone should of swapped out their game for Babylon 5.. We would then have something closer to what you said

[malakim2099]

aj2070 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Uhm... I think synthesis is right!

Noooooo....

Great, who Indoctrinated the Angry One?

Harbinger? HARBINGER YOU QUIT INDOCTRINATING THE USERS AND GO TO YOUR ROOM! 

[MegaSovereign]

The mass relays makes the galaxy reliant on Reaper tech, and advancements in galactic travel are becoming more and more stagnant with them around. That's part of the Reaper trap.

While having the Mass Relays still around would be great for the short term, I think advancing FTL travel is the best way for the galactic community to move forward. I don't agree with Bioware that outright destroying them is necessary. I would have preferred the galaxy to focus on making improvements to the current mass relays, or try extrapolating that tech and use it to improve FTL travel.

Modifié par MegaSovereign, 25 juin 2012 - 08:05 .

[xeNNN]

The Angry One wrote...

You know what would've been inspiring and uplifting?

Looking over the Citadel and the relay network and realising that for the first time, they're ours. We earned them. The Reapers are gone. Now the galaxy's species are left to make their own legacy with the tools that brought them together in the first place.

But no let's just blow them up good YEEHAW.

ah "the angry one" how ive missed you're direct and quite logically raging statements.

[MegaSovereign]

The Angry One wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
"But you killed the rest."

"We helped them ascend."

Ascension everybody!

The StarChild never said it helped every single organic ascend. Only that it helped their races ascend, which it did.
It is not lying, it simply has a different way of looking at the galaxy.

It takes the form of a child it murdered and you think it's not lying. Come on.

Also, the Quarians.
Also, the Zha.
Also, the Protheans.

Also, note the use of the word "helped" instead of "forced".

Ascend the non-believer!!!

[terdferguson123]

MegaSovereign wrote...

The mass relays makes the galaxy reliant on tech, and advancements in galactic travel are becoming more and more stagnant with them around. That's part of the Reaper trap.

While having the Mass Relays still around would be great for the short term, I think advancing FTL travel is the best way for the galactic community to move forward. I don't agree with Bioware that outright destroying them is necessary. I would have preferred the galaxy to focus on making improvements to the current mass relays, or try extrapolating that tech and use it to improve FTL travel.

I'm glad that someone else understands the potential of "upgrading". However, I am wondering, why don't you believe that building our own from the ground up would be better than upgrading those that already exist? Think of it as reverse engineering. Much can be gained from it.

[CronoDragoon]

terdferguson123 wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

The mass relays makes the galaxy reliant on tech, and advancements in galactic travel are becoming more and more stagnant with them around. That's part of the Reaper trap.

While having the Mass Relays still around would be great for the short term, I think advancing FTL travel is the best way for the galactic community to move forward. I don't agree with Bioware that outright destroying them is necessary. I would have preferred the galaxy to focus on making improvements to the current mass relays, or try extrapolating that tech and use it to improve FTL travel.

I'm glad that someone else understands the potential of "upgrading". However, I am wondering, why don't you believe that building our own from the ground up would be better than upgrading those that already exist? Think of it as reverse engineering. Much can be gained from it.

If you mean building new ones while still using old ones, I'm all for it. The main problem with the whole "destroy the relays" argument is that it seems no one cares that billions of people will die without the relays. The only planets capable of sustaining their population without the relays are colony planets, after all.

[Sajuro]

D24O wrote...

I agree. Technology has no inherent morality, it's how we choose to apply it. The relays are no more evil than the gun TIM uses to shoot Anderson. There's no real build up that the relays are inherently evil, and they don't go deep enough into the "make your own path" idea to really justify destroying the setting.

I don't know, there aren't many non evil uses for the reaper smoothy makers, or indoctrination tech, or dragon teeth, or the N7 Eagle

[CronoDragoon]

Sajuro wrote...

D24O wrote...

I agree. Technology has no inherent morality, it's how we choose to apply it. The relays are no more evil than the gun TIM uses to shoot Anderson. There's no real build up that the relays are inherently evil, and they don't go deep enough into the "make your own path" idea to really justify destroying the setting.

I don't know, there aren't many non evil uses for the reaper smoothy makers, or indoctrination tech, or dragon teeth, or the N7 Eagle

It's probably more accurate to say "transportation technology has no inherent morality."

[terdferguson123]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

D24O wrote...

I agree. Technology has no inherent morality, it's how we choose to apply it. The relays are no more evil than the gun TIM uses to shoot Anderson. There's no real build up that the relays are inherently evil, and they don't go deep enough into the "make your own path" idea to really justify destroying the setting.

I don't know, there aren't many non evil uses for the reaper smoothy makers, or indoctrination tech, or dragon teeth, or the N7 Eagle

It's probably more accurate to say "transportation technology has no inherent morality."

Except for it's you know, ability to destroy star systems. But thats not a deal breaker, right?

[CronoDragoon]

terdferguson123 wrote...

Except for it's you know, ability to destroy star systems. But thats not a deal breaker, right?

Nope. Cars can run over people, but that doesn't make them evil. Blowing up star systems isn't the relays' main function; it's a consequence of ramming a giant asteroid into them. It's different from, say, nerve gas which is created in order to attack and kill people. Transportation technology has the neutral purpose of transporting, which can be used for good or ill.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 25 juin 2012 - 08:39 .

[Grimwick]

terdferguson123 wrote...

OP, you didn't pay attention much in the game did you?

The Relays were created by the Reapers as a way for organics to move along the paths that the Reapers desired. This means, that the relays are indeed part of the cycle, whether or not the Reapers are destroyed or not. The point is, the destruction of the relays represents organics moving along their own path without any Reaper influence.

If there is one thing that I am learning about this whole "We hate the ending no matter what!!!1!!1" fiasco, it's that the people who are so hellbent on hating it, usually didn't pay attention to the storyline very well.

What on earth are you saying because it doesn't make much sense.

The cycle continues even after the reapers are dead? No it doesn't.

With the reapers gone the Mass Relays are nothing but tools. Tools around which the entire galactic civilisation has adapted to using. In all likelihood they will later try to develop new relays in exactly the same way.

[Taleroth]

terdferguson123 wrote...

Except for it's you know, ability to destroy star systems. But thats not a deal breaker, right?

Anything that makes use of energy can be made into weapon. This doesn't make cars evil.

[CronoDragoon]

terdferguson123 wrote...

OP, you didn't pay attention much in the game did you?

The Relays were created by the Reapers as a way for organics to move along the paths that the Reapers desired. This means, that the relays are indeed part of the cycle, whether or not the Reapers are destroyed or not. The point is, the destruction of the relays represents organics moving along their own path without any Reaper influence.

If there is one thing that I am learning about this whole "We hate the ending no matter what!!!1!!1" fiasco, it's that the people who are so hellbent on hating it, usually didn't pay attention to the storyline very well.

The relays were a part of the cycle, but the cycle has been broken. It no longer exists. Let's assume the relays aren't destroyed: In any ending the Reapers will never again use the relays to trap organics.

[sp0ck 06]

Grimwick wrote...

terdferguson123 wrote...

OP, you didn't pay attention much in the game did you?

The Relays were created by the Reapers as a way for organics to move along the paths that the Reapers desired. This means, that the relays are indeed part of the cycle, whether or not the Reapers are destroyed or not. The point is, the destruction of the relays represents organics moving along their own path without any Reaper influence.

If there is one thing that I am learning about this whole "We hate the ending no matter what!!!1!!1" fiasco, it's that the people who are so hellbent on hating it, usually didn't pay attention to the storyline very well.

What on earth are you saying because it doesn't make much sense.

The cycle continues even after the reapers are dead? No it doesn't.

With the reapers gone the Mass Relays are nothing but tools. Tools around which the entire galactic civilisation has adapted to using. In all likelihood they will later try to develop new relays in exactly the same way.

No, in all likelihood the continued existence of the relays will continue to stagnate true progression.  The asari had been a spacefaring civilization for like a thousand years and never bothered to develop efficent FTL drives beyond what was needed for intersolar travel.

Think about it this way:  with the relays gone, the species of the galaxy have a real chance at defeating the logic of the Catalyst.  It's a chance to develop truly new technologies, intead of piggybacking on Reaper/Prothean tech.  If the relays remained, even with the Reapers gone one would assume the Catalyst probably is right.  Its watched millions of cycles of organic beings build their civilizations around the technology of the Relays, develop AI, and presumbably instigate their own destruction.  Destroying the relays opens the door to new possibilities the Catalyst could not have forseen.  Its the only way to affect a real change on the order of the galaxy.

Sure, it sucks short term for the immediate survivors of the war.  But I thought that was kind of the whole point of ME3:  victory was not going to come easy, and it was not going to be some happy ever after ending where everyone is peaceful.  All three games repeatedly showed how corrupt, inept, petty, and destructive the various species could be.  We were also shown how, when faced with a real threat, the races and individuals within them could unite and display true altruism.  

If the relays stayed, soon it'd be back to krogan aggression, salarian bioweapons, human imperialism, etc.  But now the galaxy is faced with a true threat and challenge.  Shepard showed what they could accomplish when they stood together, and through his/her own sacrifice set the stage for a true leap foward in peace and progression.  Shepard basically challenged the galaxy to change.  Defeating the Reapers really was only the beginning of the real test.

[Taleroth]

sp0ck 06 wrote...

Think about it this way:  with the relays gone, the species of the galaxy have a real chance at defeating the logic of the Catalyst.  It's a chance to develop truly new technologies, intead of piggybacking on Reaper/Prothean tech.  If the relays remained, even with the Reapers gone one would assume the Catalyst probably is right.  Its watched millions of cycles of organic beings build their civilizations around the technology of the Relays, develop AI, and presumbably instigate their own destruction.  Destroying the relays opens the door to new possibilities the Catalyst could not have forseen.  Its the only way to affect a real change on the order of the galaxy.

The Catalyst is already defied. The difference between this cycle and the others is that this cycle joined together. All of the others fought themselves even as they fought the Reapers. Javik makes this point pretty clearly.

Unity beats the Reapers. And it's only by the relays that they are even able to attempt unity. Unity is the change. To destroy that is to remove what made them deserve to win.

Modifié par Taleroth, 25 juin 2012 - 09:00 .