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[sp0ck 06]

Taleroth wrote...

sp0ck 06 wrote...

Think about it this way:  with the relays gone, the species of the galaxy have a real chance at defeating the logic of the Catalyst.  It's a chance to develop truly new technologies, intead of piggybacking on Reaper/Prothean tech.  If the relays remained, even with the Reapers gone one would assume the Catalyst probably is right.  Its watched millions of cycles of organic beings build their civilizations around the technology of the Relays, develop AI, and presumbably instigate their own destruction.  Destroying the relays opens the door to new possibilities the Catalyst could not have forseen.  Its the only way to affect a real change on the order of the galaxy.

The Catalyst is already defied. The difference between this cycle and the others is that this cycle joined together. All of the others fought themselves even as they fought the Reapers. Javik makes this point pretty clearly.

Unity beats the Reapers. And it's only by the relays that they are even able to attempt unity. Unity is the change. But it is only with the relays that they have unity. To destroy that is to remove what made them deserve to win.

The relays, as someone said earlier, are tools.  The relays did not create unity.  And its hard to imagine any unity remaining if the relays are intact because there's nothing to be unified about.  Unity was created because there was a challenge and threat that was worth setting aside racial differences over.  In a post relay galaxy, the threat is gone but the challenge of unity remains to the war's survivors.

And the Catalyst isn't really defied as it stands.  It is defeated but not proven wrong.  

Modifié par sp0ck 06, 25 juin 2012 - 09:03 .

[AtreiyaN7]

I felt the urge to be snarky today after seeing this thread title pop up in my feed, but I'm saving my irritation for an author whose edits I'm doing atm. Whether or not you accept it (and I don't really care if you do), based on what happened in the game, it seems as if the destruction of the relays was the result of the apparently vast amount of energy that was channeled through them to achieve the changes in the respective endings (Destruction/Control/Synthesis). So basically...too damned bad, deal with it. It's not "bull" just because you don't like the reality of the situation. Feel free to write some fan-fic to make yourself feel better.

Okay, maybe I had a little sarcasm to spare there but back to doing those edits...

[Grimwick]

sp0ck 06 wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

terdferguson123 wrote...

OP, you didn't pay attention much in the game did you?

The Relays were created by the Reapers as a way for organics to move along the paths that the Reapers desired. This means, that the relays are indeed part of the cycle, whether or not the Reapers are destroyed or not. The point is, the destruction of the relays represents organics moving along their own path without any Reaper influence.

If there is one thing that I am learning about this whole "We hate the ending no matter what!!!1!!1" fiasco, it's that the people who are so hellbent on hating it, usually didn't pay attention to the storyline very well.

What on earth are you saying because it doesn't make much sense.

The cycle continues even after the reapers are dead? No it doesn't.

With the reapers gone the Mass Relays are nothing but tools. Tools around which the entire galactic civilisation has adapted to using. In all likelihood they will later try to develop new relays in exactly the same way.

No, in all likelihood the continued existence of the relays will continue to stagnate true progression.  The asari had been a spacefaring civilization for like a thousand years and never bothered to develop efficent FTL drives beyond what was needed for intersolar travel.

Incorrect. Research into effecient transport does not stagnate simply because one effecient method of travel exists. The MEverse is not in stagnation at the time of the reaper's arrival so I see no evidence to further your claim.

Besides, if you destroyed the relays who is to say that they simply wouldn't try and develop new relays themselves? Destroying them doesn't solve anything in that respect. It simply buys you more time.

Think about it this way:  with the relays gone, the species of the galaxy have a real chance at defeating the logic of the Catalyst.  It's a chance to develop truly new technologies, intead of piggybacking on Reaper/Prothean tech.  If the relays remained, even with the Reapers gone one would assume the Catalyst probably is right.  Its watched millions of cycles of organic beings build their civilizations around the technology of the Relays, develop AI, and presumbably instigate their own destruction.  Destroying the relays opens the door to new possibilities the Catalyst could not have forseen.  Its the only way to affect a real change on the order of the galaxy.

If the relays were the sole cause of the creation of these AIs then the whole logic of the SC is destroyed from the start. destroying the relays will not stop the production of such AIs at all, I have no idea how you can possibly claim that.

Furthermore, the Reapers end the cycles before these AIs have been created. there is no evidence that the SC has witnessed such events at all. That is a completely unsubstantiated claim.

Sure, it sucks short term for the immediate survivors of the war.  But I thought that was kind of the whole point of ME3:  victory was not going to come easy, and it was not going to be some happy ever after ending where everyone is peaceful.  All three games repeatedly showed how corrupt, inept, petty, and destructive the various species could be.  We were also shown how, when faced with a real threat, the races and individuals within them could unite and display true altruism.  

Not only does it suck short term but it could well kill millions who are left stranded without supplies, vital equipment or  safe and easy transport.

The destruction of the relays is independent of the other suffering of the galaxy and the 'victory is not going to come easy' was not the point of ME3 at all. It is a completely contrived plot device to create some ridiculous symbolism in the game.

If the relays stayed, soon it'd be back to krogan aggression, salarian bioweapons, human imperialism, etc.  But now the galaxy is faced with a true threat and challenge.  Shepard showed what they could accomplish when they stood together, and through his/her own sacrifice set the stage for a true leap foward in peace and progression.  Shepard basically challenged the galaxy to change.  Defeating the Reapers really was only the beginning of the real test.

Completely absurd and you have no evidence to suggest that:

1) With the relays everyone will return to these traits.
2) Without the relays they won't return to these traits.
3) The destruction of the relays will not cause a war or conflict within itself.
4) That such devastated and still very suspicious states will willingly work together after the war.
5) That anyone is in such a condition to produce new technology.

Also, it is ridiculous to destroy the relays simply to provide a challenge. That is unbelieveably short-sighted and stupid.

[Taleroth]

sp0ck 06 wrote...

The relays, as someone said earlier, are tools.  The relays did not create unity.  And its hard to imagine any unity remaining if the relays are intact because there's nothing to be unified about.  Unity was created because there was a challenge and threat that was worth setting aside racial differences over.  In a post relay galaxy, the threat is gone but the challenge of unity remains to the war's survivors.

And the Catalyst isn't really defied as it stands.  It is defeated but not proven wrong.  

The Catalyst is entirely defied victory is defiance. It can't be "proven wrong" because it's reasoning was stupid. And trying to say that he's proven wrong because the relays cause it all along is similarly stupid. But it can be proven unworthy of making these decisions for the galaxy, as was the case by a unified galaxy overcoming it.

Unity was created because the galaxy came together and talked out their differences and found something worth unifying for. But it was enabled by the relays. Victory was enabled by the relays. Without which, they would have all died and the Reapers continued on. There is no circumstance under which the Reapers would have been defeated without the relays. To destroy the relays as well is to trivialize your own victory.

Trying to dispute on tools and creation is just shifting goals. The relays don't create rogue AI that destroy all organics, either. It's irrelevant. They are a part of it.

[Funkdrspot]

Personally I like the symbolism behind destroying the relays as breaking the chains. I don't understand the angst over it and the whole "galactic dark ages" excuse is stupid as can be.

The previous cycles made a device that taps into the nearly limitless energy AND galactic spacing of the relays to let off the EM blasts. It makes sense. People just like the status quo and are afraid of change, especially as it pertains to a fantasy world they adore.

[Grimwick]

Funkdrspot wrote...

Personally I like the symbolism behind destroying the relays as breaking the chains. I don't understand the angst over it and the whole "galactic dark ages" excuse is stupid as can be.

I'm sorry but destroying the base around which an entire civilisation has developed will not do it any favours in the slightest.

It's as if today somebody destroyed both the internet and all travel by aeroplane/ship/car and everybody had to use rowing boats and horses to get around.

It will cripple the galaxy.

The previous cycles made a device that taps into the nearly limitless energy AND galactic spacing of the relays to let off the EM blasts. It makes sense. People just like the status quo and are afraid of change, especially as it pertains to a fantasy world they adore.

I'd like to see a link to this evidence please.

Also I'd like you to point out how that is relevant to the discussion at all.

[terdferguson123]

Grimwick wrote...

terdferguson123 wrote...

OP, you didn't pay attention much in the game did you?

The Relays were created by the Reapers as a way for organics to move along the paths that the Reapers desired. This means, that the relays are indeed part of the cycle, whether or not the Reapers are destroyed or not. The point is, the destruction of the relays represents organics moving along their own path without any Reaper influence.

If there is one thing that I am learning about this whole "We hate the ending no matter what!!!1!!1" fiasco, it's that the people who are so hellbent on hating it, usually didn't pay attention to the storyline very well.

What on earth are you saying because it doesn't make much sense.

The cycle continues even after the reapers are dead? No it doesn't.

With the reapers gone the Mass Relays are nothing but tools. Tools around which the entire galactic civilisation has adapted to using. In all likelihood they will later try to develop new relays in exactly the same way.

You aren't thinking about it deeply enough. The continued existence of the relays with or without the Reapers STILL causes unnatural progression of organics. They were not built by organics, and they are altering the way organics should progress because of it. You cannot just give a race tools that are far beyond their comprehension and hope that they won't cause harm with them in some way. Think about it, just because the Reapers are gone,does not mean that the Relays are somehow losing their original intent of forcing organics on a path of unnatural progression. Am I saying that organics should not rebuild relays? No, that would be great, because rebuilding them would force them to truly understand them and would also help to negate some of the inherit danger that is not yet understood about the Reapers creations.

[Jonathan Sud]

Would you really want to advance along the Reapers technology? The paths that "they desire"? I sure as hell wouldn't want to evolve in any way similar.

[sp0ck 06]

If the relays stayed, soon it'd be back to krogan aggression, salarian bioweapons, human imperialism, etc.  But now the galaxy is faced with a true threat and challenge.  Shepard showed what they could accomplish when they stood together, and through his/her own sacrifice set the stage for a true leap foward in peace and progression.  Shepard basically challenged the galaxy to change.  Defeating the Reapers really was only the beginning of the real test.

Completely absurd and you have no evidence to suggest that:

1) With the relays everyone will return to these traits.
2) Without the relays they won't return to these traits.
3) The destruction of the relays will not cause a war or conflict within itself.
4) That such devastated and still very suspicious states will willingly work together after the war.
5) That anyone is in such a condition to produce new technology.

Also, it is ridiculous to destroy the relays simply to provide a challenge. That is unbelieveably short-sighted and stupid.

You're taking everything I said in a super literal way.  I am talking about the symbolic significance of what the relays represent.  The destruction of the relays obviously does not magically transform the denizens of the MEverse into different individuals.  But it does give a chance (not a certainty) for a true reformation of the galactic order.

The galaxy is in a shattered state following the events of ME3.  Had the relays remained and there been a "total victory" wherein the Reapers were destroyed with no serious cost, the galaxy would likely have soon gone back to how it was: infighting, racist, disjointed.  As it stands, the "we fight or we die" motto of ME3 could be continued post-game to "unite or die."  New technologies must be developed.  The enormous array of species in the Sol system must work together if they wish to survive.  

The purpose of destroying the relays wasn't to "provide a challenge."  The practical purpose was obviously to ensure the Crucible was able to affect a galaxy-wide area.  But in the destruction of the relays, a challenge exists...one that, hopefully the races will embrace following Shepard's example.

Modifié par sp0ck 06, 25 juin 2012 - 09:47 .

[D24O]

I think part of the reaosn people are so frustrated is that it was forced onto us by the avatar of our enemy. No matter what, we have to destroy them to solve his problem, it's not done on our own terms. I think what would've been better is for the catalyst to provide some sort of reason for us to not use them, maybe emphasizing that they're possibly blinding us to better alternatives, and then have everybody say their goodbyes, go back home, and then shut down the network themselves and show the different races working to make an alternative. But having us shut down the relays on our own terms, instead of at the insistance of our enemy would make it much more appealing, and I think would be a better vehicle for their metaphor of a galactic rebirth.

Modifié par D24O, 25 juin 2012 - 09:54 .

[CronoDragoon]

Funkdrspot wrote...

Personally I like the symbolism behind destroying the relays as breaking the chains. I don't understand the angst over it and the whole "galactic dark ages" excuse is stupid as can be.

The previous cycles made a device that taps into the nearly limitless energy AND galactic spacing of the relays to let off the EM blasts. It makes sense. People just like the status quo and are afraid of change, especially as it pertains to a fantasy world they adore.

You don't get the angst over the fact that billions of people will starve in now-isolated systems? I am hearing a bunch of villain logic that in any other game would be rejected by the hero. This entire break-a-few-eggs(or billions) thing is disturbing.

[sp0ck 06]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Funkdrspot wrote...

Personally I like the symbolism behind destroying the relays as breaking the chains. I don't understand the angst over it and the whole "galactic dark ages" excuse is stupid as can be.

The previous cycles made a device that taps into the nearly limitless energy AND galactic spacing of the relays to let off the EM blasts. It makes sense. People just like the status quo and are afraid of change, especially as it pertains to a fantasy world they adore.

You don't get the angst over the fact that billions of people will starve in now-isolated systems? I am hearing a bunch of villain logic that in any other game would be rejected by the hero. This entire break-a-few-eggs(or billions) thing is disturbing.

I don't understand this "billions will starve" mindset?  Why will people starve?  They only get their food from ships?  Wouldn't most colonies be self-sufficent?  Where is all this starving going to occur?  What in-game or from the codex makes people think this?

[CronoDragoon]

D24O wrote...

The Relays were created by the Reapers as a way for organics to move along the paths that the Reapers 
I think part of the reaosn people are so frustrated is that it was forced onto us by the avatar of our enemy. No matter what, we have to destroy them to solve his problem, it's not done on our own terms. I think what would've been better is for the catalyst to provide some sort of reason for us to not use them, maybe emphasizing that they're possibly blinding us to better alternatives, and then have everybody say their goodbyes, go back home, and then shut down the network themselves and show the different races working to make an alternative. But having us shut down the relays on our own terms, instead of at the insistance of our enemy would make it much more appealing, and I think would be a better vehicle for their metaphor of a galactic rebirth.

The evolution of organics according to the Mass Relay system was only bad because the Reapers could shut them down and isolate systems, picking them off one by one. It doesn't matter if organics evolved according to what the Reapers wanted because the Reapers are dead and there is no longer any threat to relying on the relays.

[CronoDragoon]

sp0ck 06 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Funkdrspot wrote...

Personally I like the symbolism behind destroying the relays as breaking the chains. I don't understand the angst over it and the whole "galactic dark ages" excuse is stupid as can be.

The previous cycles made a device that taps into the nearly limitless energy AND galactic spacing of the relays to let off the EM blasts. It makes sense. People just like the status quo and are afraid of change, especially as it pertains to a fantasy world they adore.

You don't get the angst over the fact that billions of people will starve in now-isolated systems? I am hearing a bunch of villain logic that in any other game would be rejected by the hero. This entire break-a-few-eggs(or billions) thing is disturbing.

I don't understand this "billions will starve" mindset?  Why will people starve?  They only get their food from ships?  Wouldn't most colonies be self-sufficent?  Where is all this starving going to occur?  What in-game or from the codex makes people think this?

The only self-sufficient type of world is a colonial world. Homeworlds are over-populated and rely on the relays for supplies. And yes, the codex states this.

[Grimwick]

terdferguson123 wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

terdferguson123 wrote...

OP, you didn't pay attention much in the game did you?

The Relays were created by the Reapers as a way for organics to move along the paths that the Reapers desired. This means, that the relays are indeed part of the cycle, whether or not the Reapers are destroyed or not. The point is, the destruction of the relays represents organics moving along their own path without any Reaper influence.

If there is one thing that I am learning about this whole "We hate the ending no matter what!!!1!!1" fiasco, it's that the people who are so hellbent on hating it, usually didn't pay attention to the storyline very well.

What on earth are you saying because it doesn't make much sense.

The cycle continues even after the reapers are dead? No it doesn't.

With the reapers gone the Mass Relays are nothing but tools. Tools around which the entire galactic civilisation has adapted to using. In all likelihood they will later try to develop new relays in exactly the same way.

You aren't thinking about it deeply enough. The continued existence of the relays with or without the Reapers STILL causes unnatural progression of organics. They were not built by organics, and they are altering the way organics should progress because of it. You cannot just give a race tools that are far beyond their comprehension and hope that they won't cause harm with them in some way.

They were built by the first cycle to create the reapers. It is very likely they were built by organics.

All evidence points to the fact that they haven't caused any direct harm whatsoever.

Think about it, just because the Reapers are gone,does not mean that the Relays are somehow losing their original intent of forcing organics on a path of unnatural progression. Am I saying that organics should not rebuild relays? No, that would be great, because rebuilding them would force them to truly understand them and would also help to negate some of the inherit danger that is not yet understood about the Reapers creations.

The original intent is now meaningless. I have no idea how that is a justification for destroying something so useful as a Mass relay.

Why destroy them? It is easier to reverse engineer something than to build from scratch. it would be far easier to just study existing relays.

As I said previously the only known danger is if you slam an asteroid into one at a few hundred thousand km/h. I have no idea what these mysterious and lethal 'dangers' are that you speak of.

[D24O]

CronoDragoon wrote...
The evolution of organics according to the Mass Relay system was only bad because the Reapers could shut them down and isolate systems, picking them off one by one. It doesn't matter if organics evolved according to what the Reapers wanted because the Reapers are dead and there is no longer any threat to relying on the relays.

I agree with you, the first part is there because I took something out, just missed that. But the point of that idea is to be a compromise. BW gets to keep their metaphor of rebirth, while we can go along with it of our own volition, and not with the enemy's leader pointing a gun to our head. I think that an ending like that, of everyone shutting them down on their own to work on their own way to cross the galaxy would've been a much better display of a hopeful future than the vague stargazer scene. 

[Grimwick]

sp0ck 06 wrote...

If the relays stayed, soon it'd be back to krogan aggression, salarian bioweapons, human imperialism, etc.  But now the galaxy is faced with a true threat and challenge.  Shepard showed what they could accomplish when they stood together, and through his/her own sacrifice set the stage for a true leap foward in peace and progression.  Shepard basically challenged the galaxy to change.  Defeating the Reapers really was only the beginning of the real test.

Completely absurd and you have no evidence to suggest that:

1) With the relays everyone will return to these traits.
2) Without the relays they won't return to these traits.
3) The destruction of the relays will not cause a war or conflict within itself.
4) That such devastated and still very suspicious states will willingly work together after the war.
5) That anyone is in such a condition to produce new technology.

Also, it is ridiculous to destroy the relays simply to provide a challenge. That is unbelieveably short-sighted and stupid.

You're taking everything I said in a super literal way.  I am talking about the symbolic significance of what the relays represent.  The destruction of the relays obviously does not magically transform the denizens of the MEverse into different individuals.  But it does give a chance (not a certainty) for a true reformation of the galactic order.

Of course I am, so far it makes no literal sense. The symbolic significance? Symbolism is not a justification to destroy technology. If the ****s (I am referring to the taboo right wing german party we all know of) created a super anti-cancer drug would you destroy it? Does it's symbolism destroy the fact that it can save millions of lives?

Technology holds no symbolism other than it's purpose. Do not mistakenly mar it by it's creators.

The galaxy is in a shattered state following the events of ME3.  Had the relays remained and there been a "total victory" wherein the Reapers were destroyed with no serious cost, the galaxy would likely have soon gone back to how it was: infighting, racist, disjointed.  As it stands, the "we fight or we die" motto of ME3 could be continued post-game to "unite or die."  New technologies must be developed.  The enormous array of species in the Sol system must work together if they wish to survive.  

No serious cost? Take a look around the MEverse next time you play. It's decimated.

The galaxy is just as likely to return to infighting now anyway. In such dire situations self-preservation instincts kick in. Politics become polarised and people will only look out for themselves. If anything it will cause war, just look at Weimar Germany.

The purpose of destroying the relays wasn't to "provide a challenge."  The practical purpose was obviously to ensure the Crucible was able to affect a galaxy-wide area.  But in the destruction of the relays, a challenge exists...one that, hopefully the races will embrace following Shepard's example.

The created challenge is meaningless and provides no benefit if the races are unable to attempt to rebuild the relays with such poor resources. Remember, it's post war and society will be crippled for a very long time without the relays.

Modifié par Grimwick, 25 juin 2012 - 09:57 .

[sp0ck 06]

Grimwick wrote...

Think about it, just because the Reapers are gone,does not mean that the Relays are somehow losing their original intent of forcing organics on a path of unnatural progression. Am I saying that organics should not rebuild relays? No, that would be great, because rebuilding them would force them to truly understand them and would also help to negate some of the inherit danger that is not yet understood about the Reapers creations.

The original intent is now meaningless. I have no idea how that is a justification for destroying something so useful as a Mass relay.

Why destroy them? It is easier to reverse engineer something than to build from scratch. it would be far easier to just study existing relays.

As I said previously the only known danger is if you slam an asteroid into one at a few hundred thousand km/h. I have no idea what these mysterious and lethal 'dangers' are that you speak of.

Do you realize how much like TIM you sound?  

It's not like the relays are going to turn into reapers, its that organics do not understand them, they are simply taken for granted.  Its what the relays represent that needs to be gone forever.  The mindset of control.  Keeping the relays would be like the humans in the Matrix, after defeating the machines completely, deciding to keep living in the Matrix because it's easier.  Its artifical and wrong.  The relays are not a result of organic evolution, they are the product of synthetic control.  

[CronoDragoon]

D24O wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...
The evolution of organics according to the Mass Relay system was only bad because the Reapers could shut them down and isolate systems, picking them off one by one. It doesn't matter if organics evolved according to what the Reapers wanted because the Reapers are dead and there is no longer any threat to relying on the relays.

I agree with you, the first part is there because I took something out, just missed that. But the point of that idea is to be a compromise. BW gets to keep their metaphor of rebirth, while we can go along with it of our own volition, and not with the enemy's leader pointing a gun to our head. I think that an ending like that, of everyone shutting them down on their own to work on their own way to cross the galaxy would've been a much better display of a hopeful future than the vague stargazer scene. 

Completely agree. I think I said this earlier and I'll reiterate: it should have been a choice, not forced.

[Grimwick]

sp0ck 06 wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

Think about it, just because the Reapers are gone,does not mean that the Relays are somehow losing their original intent of forcing organics on a path of unnatural progression. Am I saying that organics should not rebuild relays? No, that would be great, because rebuilding them would force them to truly understand them and would also help to negate some of the inherit danger that is not yet understood about the Reapers creations.

The original intent is now meaningless. I have no idea how that is a justification for destroying something so useful as a Mass relay.

Why destroy them? It is easier to reverse engineer something than to build from scratch. it would be far easier to just study existing relays.

As I said previously the only known danger is if you slam an asteroid into one at a few hundred thousand km/h. I have no idea what these mysterious and lethal 'dangers' are that you speak of.

Do you realize how much like TIM you sound?  

It's not like the relays are going to turn into reapers, its that organics do not understand them, they are simply taken for granted.  Its what the relays represent that needs to be gone forever.  The mindset of control.  Keeping the relays would be like the humans in the Matrix, after defeating the machines completely, deciding to keep living in the Matrix because it's easier.  Its artifical and wrong.  The relays are not a result of organic evolution, they are the product of synthetic control.  

TIM wanted to control an army of hyperadvanced superweapons in order to further human domination.

I want to point out that the relays are simply tools used in transporting goods and services - they are accessible to all and do not offer power for one society over another.

I do not sound like TIM.

So? The relays don't represent the reapers necessarily. they only represent the lifeblood of the galaxy. The main means of transport, communication, of making the galaxy available and accessible to all. They do not represent death, genocide or destruction in any way other than being associated with their creators.

It is NOT AT ALL like keeping the Matrix. The Matrix is a subservience program to essentially brainwash massive amounts of people. Since when do the Mass relays brainwash and subjugate people?

It is artificial? That is not an argument in the slightest. It's that kind of backwards thinking which would keep humanity in the dark ages.

How on earth do you know about the origins of the relays? It is not definitively explained that the reapers built them. only that their organic creator's cycle was the time at which they were made.

Also, simply because they are a synthetic creation does not make it inherently evil, or 'wrong'. That is absurd. If we built an AI computer which developed a cure for AIDS for us, should we suddenly not use it because it was made by a synthetic?

[sp0ck 06]

Of course I am, so far it makes no literal sense. The symbolic significance? Symbolism is not a justification to destroy technology. If the ****s (I am referring to the taboo right wing german party we all know of) created a super anti-cancer drug would you destroy it? Does it's symbolism destroy the fact that it can save millions of lives?

Technology holds no symbolism other than it's purpose. Do not mistakenly mar it by it's creators.

The practical purpose of destroying the relays was a necessary effect of the Crucible firing.  I am talking about the meaning of their destruction, not the means.

No serious cost? Take a look around the MEverse next time you play. It's decimated.

The galaxy is just as likely to return to infighting now anyway. In such dire situations self-preservation instincts kick in. Politics become polarised and people will only look out for themselves. If anything it will cause war, just look at Weimar Germany.

Read what I said.  IF there had been no serious cost.  And Weimar Germany was actually a haven of cultural and scientific progression only crumbling under the impossible debt given to it after World War I.  Before the ****i's took power, it was regarded as a mini-renaissance in Western Europe and actually proves my point pretty well.

[D24O]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Completely agree. I think I said this earlier and I'll reiterate: it should have been a choice, not forced.

I agree, although it seems BW doesn't, I doubt they're going to change the fact that relays must be destroyed, I just wish they let us do it ourselves,with the intend to overcome the galaxy on our own, and not at the behest of our mortal enemy. That really rustles my jimmies. 

[Grimwick]

sp0ck 06 wrote...

Of course I am, so far it makes no literal sense. The symbolic significance? Symbolism is not a justification to destroy technology. If the ****s (I am referring to the taboo right wing german party we all know of) created a super anti-cancer drug would you destroy it? Does it's symbolism destroy the fact that it can save millions of lives?

Technology holds no symbolism other than it's purpose. Do not mistakenly mar it by it's creators.

The practical purpose of destroying the relays was a necessary effect of the Crucible firing.  I am talking about the meaning of their destruction, not the means.

So am I. Re-read what I posted please and undertsnad that I refer to the meaning.

No serious cost? Take a look around the MEverse next time you play. It's decimated.

The galaxy is just as likely to return to infighting now anyway. In such dire situations self-preservation instincts kick in. Politics become polarised and people will only look out for themselves. If anything it will cause war, just look at Weimar Germany.

Read what I said.  IF there had been no serious cost.  And Weimar Germany was actually a haven of cultural and scientific progression only crumbling under the impossible debt given to it after World War I.  Before the ****i's took power, it was regarded as a mini-renaissance in Western Europe and actually proves my point pretty well.

Not really. Weimar Germany was in disgusting trouble. There were 4 attempted revolutions in the first 2 years of it's existence. The Kapp and Munich Putsch's as well as the Spartacist revolt are just a couple examples or early movements against it. The first years were very very bloody indeed.

The so called 'golden years' of Weimar were only in the middle stages and lasted 2-3 years before it collapsed. The political situation is what lead to such troubles as the **** rise to power, helped influence the depression (worsened by hyperinflation) and allowed social conditions within the country to crumble. The 2-3 years out of 14 years of bloodshed is insignificant - not to mention that WW2 was almost a direct result of the political situation of the republic.

[sp0ck 06]

Grimwick wrote...

sp0ck 06 wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

Think about it, just because the Reapers are gone,does not mean that the Relays are somehow losing their original intent of forcing organics on a path of unnatural progression. Am I saying that organics should not rebuild relays? No, that would be great, because rebuilding them would force them to truly understand them and would also help to negate some of the inherit danger that is not yet understood about the Reapers creations.

The original intent is now meaningless. I have no idea how that is a justification for destroying something so useful as a Mass relay.

Why destroy them? It is easier to reverse engineer something than to build from scratch. it would be far easier to just study existing relays.

As I said previously the only known danger is if you slam an asteroid into one at a few hundred thousand km/h. I have no idea what these mysterious and lethal 'dangers' are that you speak of.

Do you realize how much like TIM you sound?  

It's not like the relays are going to turn into reapers, its that organics do not understand them, they are simply taken for granted.  Its what the relays represent that needs to be gone forever.  The mindset of control.  Keeping the relays would be like the humans in the Matrix, after defeating the machines completely, deciding to keep living in the Matrix because it's easier.  Its artifical and wrong.  The relays are not a result of organic evolution, they are the product of synthetic control.  

TIM wanted to control an army of hyperadvanced superweapons in order to further human domination.

I want to point out that the relays are simply tools used in transporting goods and services - they are accessible to all and do not offer power for one society over another.

I do not sound like TIM.

So? The relays don't represent the reapers necessarily. they only represent the lifeblood of the galaxy. The main means of transport, communication, of making the galaxy available and accessible to all. They do not represent death, genocide or destruction in any way other than being associated with their creators.

It is NOT AT ALL like keeping the Matrix. The Matrix is a subservience program to essentially brainwash massive amounts of people. Since when do the Mass relays brainwash and subjugate people?

It is artificial? That is not an argument in the slightest. It's that kind of backwards thinking which would keep humanity in the dark ages.

How on earth do you know about the origins of the relays? It is not definitively explained that the reapers built them. only that their organic creator's cycle was the time at which they were made.

Also, simply because they are a synthetic creation does not make it inherently evil, or 'wrong'. That is absurd. If we built an AI computer which developed a cure for AIDS for us, should we suddenly not use it because it was made by a synthetic?

TIM is not so much interested in the Reapers themselves as the power they represent.  He is constantly saying things like "Look at how much we have accomplished since finding the Charon Relay.  Imagine what we could achieve with the power of the Reapers."

You say that "backwards thinking" will leave us in the Dark Ages.  I say that "progressive thinking" will lead to our destruction.

Also, simply because they are a synthetic creation does not make it inherently evil, or 'wrong'. That is absurd. If we built an AI computer which developed a cure for AIDS for us, should we suddenly not use it because it was made by a synthetic?

That's the difference.  If we build such a computer, I'd say it was the natural progression of evolution.  But that's not the case with the relays.

You say technology cannot be inherently evil...I respectfully disagree.  A nuclear bomb is an evil device.  Medical data obtained by the Japanese and ****i's in WW2 is evil, even it it proved useful in certain cases.  Purpose matters.  The purpose of the relays was similar to the purpose of the Matrix, and I think that matters.

edit:  To address your point above, of course its never black and white.  If the Germans in WW2 had created a super cure, one would utilize it.  But I don't think the relays fall under that umbrella.

The sad part is, if the ending to ME3 had been well done, we'd be expressing how great it was that people could take different things away from it.  Instead its just created this air or nastiness that sits on these forums.  The ending of ME3...is evil (even though I kind of liked it).

Modifié par sp0ck 06, 25 juin 2012 - 10:16 .

[LTKerr]

The Angry One wrote...

You know what would've been inspiring and uplifting?

Looking over the Citadel and the relay network and realising that for the first time, they're ours. We earned them. The Reapers are gone. Now the galaxy's species are left to make their own legacy with the tools that brought them together in the first place.

But no let's just blow them up good YEEHAW.

Explosions are considered art, you know?