209 réponses à ce sujet

[CronoDragoon]

sp0ck 06 wrote...



TIM is not so much interested in the Reapers themselves as the power they represent.  He is constantly saying things like "Look at how much we have accomplished since finding the Charon Relay.  Imagine what we could achieve with the power of the Reapers."

You say that "backwards thinking" will leave us in the Dark Ages.  I say that "progressive thinking" will lead to our destruction.

That's the difference.  If we build such a computer, I'd say it was the natural progression of evolution.  But that's not the case with the relays.

You say technology cannot be inherently evil...I respectfully disagree.  A nuclear bomb is an evil device.  Medical data obtained by the Japanese and ****i's in WW2 is evil, even it it proved useful in certain cases.  Purpose matters.  The purpose of the relays was similar to the purpose of the Matrix, and I think that matters.

The sad part is, if the ending to ME3 had been well done, we'd be expressing how great it was that people could take different things away from it.  Instead its just created this air or nastiness that sits on these forums.  The ending of ME3...is evil (even though I kind of liked it).

If, as you claim, purpose is important, then you should really see the difference between wanting to preserve the relays for the unity and prosperity of galactic civilization vs. the domination of one race over all others. Edit to clarify: I didn't destroy the Collector Base because it was inherently evil, I destroyed it because I didn't trust TIM to make use of it for good.

I don't see how it follows that because we didn't build the relays we must destroy them. If you want to say that we should study the relays, reverse engineer them to build our own, then destroy the old ones then I have no problem with that.

I'd actually say that if this was offered as the ultimate ME choice (destroying them vs. keeping them) then it would be healthy debate and one that many people would obviously be split on, with both sides having understandable arguments. As it stands, the fact that one side gets the other side's view crammed down its throat leads to much bitterness and a bit of hostility towards alternate ways of thinking.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 25 juin 2012 - 10:20 .

[Grimwick]

[quote]sp0ck 06 wrote...
TIM is not so much interested in the Reapers themselves as the power they represent.  He is constantly saying things like "Look at how much we have accomplished since finding the Charon Relay.  Imagine what we could achieve with the power of the Reapers."

You say that "backwards thinking" will leave us in the Dark Ages.  I say that "progressive thinking" will lead to our destruction.[/quote]

What the... I don't even...

I have been rendered literally speechless by that ludicrous statement.

[quote][quote]
Also, simply because they are a synthetic creation does not make it inherently evil, or 'wrong'. That is absurd. If we built an AI computer which developed a cure for AIDS for us, should we suddenly not use it because it was made by a synthetic?
[/quote]

That's the difference.  If we build such a computer, I'd say it was the natural progression of evolution.  But that's not the case with the relays.

You say technology cannot be inherently evil...I respectfully disagree.  A nuclear bomb is an evil device.  Medical data obtained by the Japanese and ****i's in WW2 is evil, even it it proved useful in certain cases.  Purpose matters.  The purpose of the relays was similar to the purpose of the Matrix, and I think that matters.

The sad part is, if the ending to ME3 had been well done, we'd be expressing how great it was that people could take different things away from it.  Instead its just created this air or nastiness that sits on these forums.  The ending of ME3...is evil (even though I kind of liked it).

[/quote][/quote]

The Relays were built by organics. That's exactly the 'natural progression' you describe. That is a great example of double-standards.

Where did I say that? I didn't ever say that. In fact I said this:
[quote]Technology holds no symbolism other than it's purpose.[/quote]
What I meant by this statement was that the purpose of the technology is the only meaning that the technology carries. Nuclear weapons were designed as weapons - making them evil. Nuclear power was designed for power, therefore isn't evil.

In fact, even if technology could be evil that doesn't make the relays evil... Prove through your logic that they are... (they are nothing like the Matrix)

And if the ending had been well done then there would be no contrvoersy at all. It is a meaningless hypothetical.

Modifié par Grimwick, 25 juin 2012 - 10:22 .

[sp0ck 06]

[quote] Grimdark wrote

[quote]sp0ck 06 wrote...
TIM is not so much interested in the Reapers themselves as the power they represent.  He is constantly saying things like "Look at how much we have accomplished since finding the Charon Relay.  Imagine what we could achieve with the power of the Reapers."

You say that "backwards thinking" will leave us in the Dark Ages.  I say that "progressive thinking" will lead to our destruction.[/quote]

What the... I don't even...

I have been rendered literally speechless by that ludicrous statement.

[quote][quote]
Also, simply because they are a synthetic creation does not make it inherently evil, or 'wrong'. That is absurd. If we built an AI computer which developed a cure for AIDS for us, should we suddenly not use it because it was made by a synthetic?
[/quote]

That's the difference.  If we build such a computer, I'd say it was the natural progression of evolution.  But that's not the case with the relays.

You say technology cannot be inherently evil...I respectfully disagree.  A nuclear bomb is an evil device.  Medical data obtained by the Japanese and ****i's in WW2 is evil, even it it proved useful in certain cases.  Purpose matters.  The purpose of the relays was similar to the purpose of the Matrix, and I think that matters.

The sad part is, if the ending to ME3 had been well done, we'd be expressing how great it was that people could take different things away from it.  Instead its just created this air or nastiness that sits on these forums.  The ending of ME3...is evil (even though I kind of liked it).

[/quote]

The Relays were built by organics. That's exactly the 'natural progression' you describe. That is a great example of double-standards.

Where did I say that? I didn't ever say that. In fact I said this:
[quote]Technology holds no symbolism other than it's purpose.[/quote]
What I meant by this statement was that the purpose of the technology is the only meaning that the technology carries. Nuclear weapons were designed as weapons - making them evil. Nuclear power was designed for power, therefore isn't evil.

In fact, even if technology could be evil that doesn't make the relays evil... Prove through your logic that they are... (they are nothing like the Matrix)

And if the ending had been well done then there would be no contrvoersy at all. It is a meaningless hypothetical.

[/quote]




[/quote]

In terms of backwards vs progressive:

Ask yourself this:  are we truly happier today then we were 1500 years ago?  Technology has certainly made our lives easier and if a "modern" person was transported back to 0 AD s/he would certainly be unhappy at the contrast, but are we really that much better off?  We've certainly developed all kinds of interesting ways to destroy ourselves and the world around us.  Technological progression does not necessarily = good.  The world would probably be a "better" place if splitting the atom had never been discovered.  Of course once we have technologies we just can't live without them, but progress for its own sake...what has it really done for humanity?

I was under the impression the relay network was built by the Catalyst/Reapers...not organics.  Did I miss something?

Modifié par sp0ck 06, 25 juin 2012 - 10:55 .

[Sajuro]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

D24O wrote...

I agree. Technology has no inherent morality, it's how we choose to apply it. The relays are no more evil than the gun TIM uses to shoot Anderson. There's no real build up that the relays are inherently evil, and they don't go deep enough into the "make your own path" idea to really justify destroying the setting.

I don't know, there aren't many non evil uses for the reaper smoothy makers, or indoctrination tech, or dragon teeth, or the N7 Eagle

It's probably more accurate to say "transportation technology has no inherent morality."

pure wheel based malevolence so evil it killed its own creator and tried to kill the president of the united states.

Modifié par Sajuro, 26 juin 2012 - 06:22 .

[Blacklash93]

OT, but anyone worried about the Control ending and EC? Might EC take away some our personal interpretations of Control?

Some people say their Shepard will rebuild the relays and make the Reapers space-police. Some want to have them retreat into dark space until needed. Others want to drive them into the sun. Hell we have people who think the cycle should be continued. Or any mix of these.

But what if EC says "Shepard did A, B, and C with the Reapers."? That would take away from the ending our imagination provides with Control.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 26 juin 2012 - 06:35 .

[Sajuro]

Blacklash93 wrote...

OT, but anyone worried about the Control ending and EC? Might EC take away some our personal interpretations of Control?

Some people say their Shepard will rebuild the relays and make the Reapers space-police. Some want to have them retreat into dark space until needed. Others want to drive them into the sun. Hell we have people who think the cycle should be continued. Or any mix of these.

But what if EC says "Shepard did A, B, and C with the Reapers."? That would take away from the ending our imagination provides.

What would happen to all the speculation for everyone?

[Blacklash93]

Sajuro wrote...
What would happen to all the speculation for everyone?

I just see sigs of people "using the Reapers for good". If EC Control contradicts that interpretation or others I imagine a lot of people will be upset that Shepard didn't do what they imagnied. Especially given that many people believe that Shepard is their character even despite what the devs say.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 26 juin 2012 - 06:46 .

[Archontor]

For all I hear about natural and unnatural progress it seems to be entirely abitrary. It was not natural to invent the steam engine, it was not natural to invent the Internet, it was not natural to make use of prothean tech nor to engage with alien societies. **** nature is what I'm saying.

[Reptilian Rob]

Archontor wrote...

For all I hear about natural and unnatural progress it seems to be entirely abitrary. It was not natural to invent the steam engine, it was not natural to invent the Internet, it was not natural to make use of prothean tech nor to engage with alien societies. **** nature is what I'm saying.

Amen. 

[Sajuro]

Archontor wrote...

For all I hear about natural and unnatural progress it seems to be entirely abitrary. It was not natural to invent the steam engine, it was not natural to invent the Internet, it was not natural to make use of prothean tech nor to engage with alien societies. **** nature is what I'm saying.

In Soviet Russia, Nature ****s you!