200 réponses à ce sujet

[Baa Baa]

dreamgazer wrote...

humes spork wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Unfortunately, it appears to be indicative of the modern era's progression towards a new mainstream perception of narrative. It's a real shame.

Indeed. Hell, it wasn't but ten years ago that Minority Report came out and got absolutely carpet bombed for its ending among moviegoers and critics alike...until people figured the ending out, anyhow.

Many, many moviegoers still don't know about it.

I ****ing love that ending. And honestly I tend to like open endings or endings that make you think, or often have different interpretations. But something like that doesn't work for the end of a trilogy or in a game like Mass Effect that has normally ended with a sense of victory and accomplishment.

[lord_shift]

CronoDragoon wrote...

lord_shift wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Normally I'm all for piling on the ending, but if the complaint of this article is that choice still doesn't matter, then what about Bioware's statement that one of the points of the EC was to personalize the ending? And don't epilogue scenes almost entirely owe their existence not only to closure, but to finding out how your decisions mattered?

I'm guessing when that point is raised, it's referring to the decision of rejecting the Catalyst's options that it offers.

In that case the complaint is framed as, "No matter what my previous decisions were, I still get the same choices at the end." But that was the case in ME1 and ME2 as well. I think the larger complaint with more weight is that no matter what decisions you made in the first 3 games, the ENDINGS you see are the same, and that is different and much more damning, in my opinion.

The latter is what Bioware has said they want to fix, and I'm all for that.

Yes, you're right. Still, I don't see how it can be fixed considering they're not recognizing/acknowledging the core of the problem that the fans have identified. As much as I'm all for the problem being fixed, if we're not on the same page, the problem will still persist.

[CronoDragoon]

Going off my previous post, what game has Bioware made where your previous decisions DID change the choices of the final decision? As far as I remember, this was not the case in Baldur's Gate 1/2, KOTOR, DA: Origins, DA2, ME1 and ME2, etc.

[Iakus]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Normally I'm all for piling on the ending, but if the complaint of this article is that choice still doesn't matter, then what about Bioware's statement that one of the points of the EC was to personalize the ending? And don't epilogue scenes almost entirely owe their existence not only to closure, but to finding out how your decisions mattered?

They're making them matter after the fact.  Slapping a few cutscenes showing krogan fighting on Earth or biotic students holding a shield, or  whatever is nice.  But in the end, you still get red blue or green, Shepard is still pretty much doomed regardless of choice. 

Now if additional tiers of readiness were added in EMS such as

:blank: EMS in Synthesis turns everyone into husks while :blank: EMS augments people with nanotech a la "Deus Ex"

::blank:: EMS and humanizing EDI saves her in Destroy  ::blank:: EMS in Destroy allows a portion of the geth to live

::blank::  EMS  in Control only allows Shepard to give the Reapers one Command before dying while ::blank: EMS allows full assuming direct control

It's a frakking shame, the structure was already in place to provide multitudes of endings, both good and bad and stuff in between.  Where choice and previous decisions could have a real effect.  Instead they spent three months making a DLC that might as well be titled "Here's Why We're Right and You're Wrong"

[Dragoonlordz]

Article is waste of space (imho) for one simple reason, he has not even seen or played the DLC... He is speculating on what might be based on what he thinks the comments in the interview means and then condemning them without evidence. The writer should have the common sense to have waited till played it before writing up on it.

[Erixxxx]

BrotherWarth wrote...

If you have a brain and are able to use it objectively then you can see evidence for what it is.
A post explaining what happened was made with Weekes' account.
Weekes's himself used the account the day before and the day after the post in question was made.
He confirmed and the site confirmed that Weekes' account had not been hacked in any way.
Weekes' was asked about the ending at a gaming convention and essentially repeated what the post said.

Him saying he didn't write it is meaningless since he admitted the only way it could have been fake didn't happen.

"Probably" and "undeniable truth" are two completely different things. I admit it looks fishy, but if you use it as basis for an article you sure as hell don't say "this is what happened". You say "This is probably what happened, but we don't know for certain".

[Reorte]

iakus wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Normally I'm all for piling on the ending, but if the complaint of this article is that choice still doesn't matter, then what about Bioware's statement that one of the points of the EC was to personalize the ending? And don't epilogue scenes almost entirely owe their existence not only to closure, but to finding out how your decisions mattered?

They're making them matter after the fact.  Slapping a few cutscenes showing krogan fighting on Earth or biotic students holding a shield, or  whatever is nice.  But in the end, you still get red blue or green, Shepard is still pretty much doomed regardless of choice. 

Now if additional tiers of readiness were added in EMS such as

:blank: EMS in Synthesis turns everyone into husks while :blank: EMS augments people with nanotech a la "Deus Ex"

::blank:: EMS and humanizing EDI saves her in Destroy  ::blank:: EMS in Destroy allows a portion of the geth to live

::blank::  EMS  in Control only allows Shepard to give the Reapers one Command before dying while ::blank: EMS allows full assuming direct control

It's a frakking shame, the structure was already in place to provide multitudes of endings, both good and bad and stuff in between.  Where choice and previous decisions could have a real effect.  Instead they spent three months making a DLC that might as well be titled "Here's Why We're Right and You're Wrong"

Given that we're stuck with the endings those examples should be the sort of thing that the EC should do. Have I missed something that says that it definitely won't, other than actually doing something half useful would seem to contradict just about everything said since the release?

[Iakus]

BrotherWarth wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Going off my previous post, what game has Bioware made where your previous decisions DID change the choices of the final decision? As far as I remember, this was not the case in Baldur's Gate 1/2, KOTOR, DA: Origins, DA2, ME1 and ME2, etc.

Dark Ritual...

Booting Morrigan from your group.

Bringing Alistair/Logain to the final battle

Romancing Alistair and taking him to the final battle

[CronoDragoon]

Edit: Okay, I think the post above mine is right. DA Origins did factor in previous decisions. Not the Dark Ritual itself, but how you treated Morrigan, bringing Alistair, etc.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 25 juin 2012 - 06:47 .

[alsonamedbort]

Erixxxx wrote...

BrotherWarth wrote...

If you have a brain and are able to use it objectively then you can see evidence for what it is.
A post explaining what happened was made with Weekes' account.
Weekes's himself used the account the day before and the day after the post in question was made.
He confirmed and the site confirmed that Weekes' account had not been hacked in any way.
Weekes' was asked about the ending at a gaming convention and essentially repeated what the post said.

Him saying he didn't write it is meaningless since he admitted the only way it could have been fake didn't happen.

"Probably" and "undeniable truth" are two completely different things. I admit it looks fishy, but if you use it as basis for an article you sure as hell don't say "this is what happened". You say "This is probably what happened, but we don't know for certain".

This is an important subtlety that seems to be lost on at least a couple of posters here.  Props to you for "having a brain" and "being able to use it objectively."

[aj2070]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Going off my previous post, what game has Bioware made where your previous decisions DID change the choices of the final decision? As far as I remember, this was not the case in Baldur's Gate 1/2, KOTOR, DA: Origins, DA2, ME1 and ME2, etc.

Missed that whole "who survives the suicide mission" thing did you?  I am pretty sure that decisions to run loyalty missions and conversations actually affect this unless I missed something.

[alsonamedbort]

BrotherWarth wrote...

Erixxxx wrote...

BrotherWarth wrote...

If you have a brain and are able to use it objectively then you can see evidence for what it is.
A post explaining what happened was made with Weekes' account.
Weekes's himself used the account the day before and the day after the post in question was made.
He confirmed and the site confirmed that Weekes' account had not been hacked in any way.
Weekes' was asked about the ending at a gaming convention and essentially repeated what the post said.

Him saying he didn't write it is meaningless since he admitted the only way it could have been fake didn't happen.

"Probably" and "undeniable truth" are two completely different things. I admit it looks fishy, but if you use it as basis for an article you sure as hell don't say "this is what happened". You say "This is probably what happened, but we don't know for certain".

Are you familiar with the concept of reasonable doubt? There is no reasonable doubt here.

LOLZ this is not a criminal trial good grief.

[Iakus]

Reorte wrote...

iakus wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Normally I'm all for piling on the ending, but if the complaint of this article is that choice still doesn't matter, then what about Bioware's statement that one of the points of the EC was to personalize the ending? And don't epilogue scenes almost entirely owe their existence not only to closure, but to finding out how your decisions mattered?

They're making them matter after the fact.  Slapping a few cutscenes showing krogan fighting on Earth or biotic students holding a shield, or  whatever is nice.  But in the end, you still get red blue or green, Shepard is still pretty much doomed regardless of choice. 

Now if additional tiers of readiness were added in EMS such as

:blank: EMS in Synthesis turns everyone into husks while :blank: EMS augments people with nanotech a la "Deus Ex"

::blank:: EMS and humanizing EDI saves her in Destroy  ::blank:: EMS in Destroy allows a portion of the geth to live

::blank::  EMS  in Control only allows Shepard to give the Reapers one Command before dying while ::blank: EMS allows full assuming direct control

It's a frakking shame, the structure was already in place to provide multitudes of endings, both good and bad and stuff in between.  Where choice and previous decisions could have a real effect.  Instead they spent three months making a DLC that might as well be titled "Here's Why We're Right and You're Wrong"

Given that we're stuck with the endings those examples should be the sort of thing that the EC should do. Have I missed something that says that it definitely won't, other than actually doing something half useful would seem to contradict just about everything said since the release?

Well, Jessica Merizan tweeted that EDI/geth are definitely dead in Destroy.  And that would probably be the easiest example to implement, given pre-EC you could head canon the Catalyst was lying/mistaken, or they only lost their Reaper code.

So if that's the case, I have no reason to think any of the endings will be subdivided any further than they already are.

[GreenDragon37]

Atakuma wrote...

GreenDragon37 wrote...

BioWare didn't give what I was promised, so you're damn right I'm going to complain. Don't like it? Tough nuts. I'm not going to accept this crap.

The EC is what we're talking about here and it's giving you exactly what was promised. don't try to move the goal posts on me.

The problem is the EC only listened to one part of the complaints and nothing else. The EC is exactly what the article said, "A bandaid on a gaping wound." It proves that they have been listening selectively, and that every other complaint meant nothing and was shoved aside, because it didn't involve agreeing witht their "artistic ending." The EC was their chance to give the people what they really wanted, and they failed.

Modifié par GreenDragon37, 25 juin 2012 - 06:49 .

[alsonamedbort]

GreenDragon37 wrote...

The problem is the EC only listened to one part of the complaints and nothing else.

But you don't actually know this.  The EC isn't even out yet.

[RoyMarcus]

Atakuma wrote...

mulder1199 wrote...

basically the article points to a common conclusion....

'you are dummies, let us explain'

I love how you people can derive insults out of absolutely nothing. I swear Casey and Mac could give everyone a hundred dollar bill along with a thoughtful hand written apology, and you'd stil find some reason to be outraged.

Well maybe a sincere responce to the real issues, or even an apology aproache would be better than a potential dissapointing EC. 

[CronoDragoon]

aj2070 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Going off my previous post, what game has Bioware made where your previous decisions DID change the choices of the final decision? As far as I remember, this was not the case in Baldur's Gate 1/2, KOTOR, DA: Origins, DA2, ME1 and ME2, etc.

Missed that whole "who survives the suicide mission" thing did you?  I am pretty sure that decisions to run loyalty missions and conversations actually affect this unless I missed something.

The final decision of ME2 is the Collector Base, and nothing in the Suicide Mission changes that choice. Who survives the Suicide Mission is, again, personalizing the ending, which is what Bioware is doing with this EC. It is not personalizing the final choice.

[ArchDuck]

Atakuma wrote...

GreenDragon37 wrote...

BioWare didn't give what I was promised, so you're damn right I'm going to complain. Don't like it? Tough nuts. I'm not going to accept this crap.

The EC is what we're talking about here and it's giving you exactly what was promised. don't try to move the goal posts on me.

Sweet, so the EC is gaping to fullfill those pages of promises they sold the game on?




Official Mass Effect Website

http://masseffect.com/about/story/

“Experience the beginning, middle, and end of an emotional story unlike any other, where the decisions you make
completely shape your experience and outcome.”

Interview with Mac Walters (Lead Writer)

http://popwatch.ew.c...-3-mac-walters/



“The presence of the Rachni] has huge consequences in Mass Effect 3. Even just in the final battle with the Reapers.”

Interview with Mac Walters (Lead Writer)
http://business.fina...-all-audiences/

“I’m always leery of saying there are 'optimal' endings, because I think one of the things we do try to do is make
different endings that are optimal for different people”

Interview with Mike Gamble (Associate Producer)
http://www.computera...missing-in-me2/

“And, to be honest, you [the fans] are crafting your Mass Effect story as much as we are anyway.”

Interview with Mike Gamble (Associate Producer)
http://www.360magazi...ferent-endings/

“There are many different endings. We wouldn’t do it any other way. How could you go through all three campaigns playing as your Shepard and then be forced into a bespoke ending that everyone gets? But I can’t say any more than that…”

Interview with Mike Gamble (Associate Producer)
http://www.eurogamer...me-people-angry

“Every decision you've made will impact how things go. The player's also the architect of what happens."

“You'll get answers to everything. That was one of the key things. Regardless of how we did everything, we had to say, yes, we're going to provide some answers to these people.”

“Because a lot of these plot threads are concluding and because it's being brought to a finale, since you were a part of architecting how they got to how they were, you will definitely sense how they close was because of the decisions you made and because of the decisions you didn't make”

Interview with Casey Hudson (Director)
http://www.gameinfor...s-effect-3.aspx

“For people who are invested in these characters and the back-story of the universe and everything, all of these
things come to a resolution in Mass Effect 3. And they are resolved in a way that's very different based on what you would do in those situations.”

Interview with Casey Hudson (Director)
http://venturebeat.c...fans-interview/

“Fans want to make sure that they see things resolved, they want to get some closure, a great ending. I think they’re going to get that.”

“Mass Effect 3 is all about answering all the biggest questions in the lore, learning about the mysteries and the Protheans and the Reapers, being able to decide for yourself how all of these things come to an end.”

Interviewer: “So are you guys the creators or the stewards of the franchise?”

Hudson: “Um… You know, at this point, I think we’re co-creators with the fans. We use a lot of feedback.”

Interview with Casey Hudson (Director)
http://www.gameinfor...PostPageIndex=2

Interviewer:
[Regarding the numerous possible endings of Mass Effect 2] “Is that same type of complexity built into the ending of Mass Effect 3?”

Hudson:
“Yeah, and I’d say much more so, becausewe have the ability to build the endings out in a way that we don’t have to worry about eventually tying them back together somewhere. This story arc is coming to an end with this game. That means the endings can be a lot more different. At this point we’re taking into account so many decisions that you’ve made as a player and reflecting a lot of that stuff. It’s not even in any way like the traditional game endings, where you can say how many endings there are or whether you got ending A, B, or C.....The endings have a lot more sophistication and variety in them.”

“We have a rule in our franchise that there is no canon. You as a player decide what your story is.”

Mike Gamble (Associate Producer)
http://www.nowgamer....in_bioware.html

“Mass Effect 3 will shake up the player's moral choices more than ever before, even going so far as allowing the Reapers to win the battle for Earth, according to BioWare's community representative Mike Gamble.”

“In an inteview with NowGamer at Gamescom, we asked if BioWare was taking risks with Mass Effect 3's plot,
including a negative ending in which the Reapers win. Gamble simply said, "Yes". We asked him again to confirm what he had just said and he said, "Yes".”

Mike Gamble (Associate Producer)
http://www.nowgamer....ry_details.html

"Of course you don’t have to play multiplayer, you can choose to play all the side-quests in single-player and do
all that stuff you’ll still get all the same endings and same information, it’s just a totally different way of playing"

Casey Hudson (Director)
http://gamescatalyst...active-stories/

“The whole idea of Mass Effect3 is resolving all of the biggest questions, about the Protheons and the Reapers,
and being in the driver's seat to end the galaxy and all of these big plot lines, to decide what civilizations are going to live or die: All of these things are answered in Mass Effect 3.”

Casey Hudson (Director)
http://www.computera...ly-good/?page=2

“There is a huge set of consequences that start stacking up as you approach the end-game. And even in terms of the ending itself, it continues to break down to some very large decisions. So it's not like a classic game ending where everything is linear and you make a choice between a few things - it really does layer in many, many different choices, up to the final moments, where it's going to be different for everyone who plays it.”

Ray Muzyka (Co-Founder of Bioware)
http://penny-arcade....ing-a-trilogy-a

“I just finished an end to end playthrough, for me the ending was the most satisfying of any game I’ve ever played….the decisions you make in this game are epic,”

“The team has been planning for this for years, since the beginning of the Mass Effect franchise. Largely the same team, most of the same leads have worked on this for years and years. They’ve thought about [the ending] for years and years. It’s not something they’ve had to solve in a week or a month even, but over the course of five or ten years.”

Modifié par ArchDuck, 25 juin 2012 - 06:56 .

[Iakus]

GreenDragon37 wrote...

The problem is the EC only listened to one part of the complaints and nothing else. The EC is exactly what the article said, "A bandaid on a gaping wound." It proves that they have been listening selectively, and that every other complaint meant nothing and was shoved aside, because it didn't involve agreeing witht their "artistic ending." The EC was their chancxe to give the people what they really wanted, and they failed.

This.

It seems that only arguments that backed the "this is artistic" line was considered "constructive".  Any problems with the endings themselves was dismissed as irrelevant.

[GreenDragon37]

alsonamedbort wrote...

GreenDragon37 wrote...

The problem is the EC only listened to one part of the complaints and nothing else.

But you don't actually know this.  The EC isn't even out yet.

Consiering their interview and the fact they only acknowledged the people who wanted "more closure," I do know.