200 réponses à ce sujet

[TK EL_]

txmn1016 wrote...

recentio wrote...

xsdob wrote...

This person relys on false information to bash walters and hudson, citing a bioware employee leak long confirmed fake.

Otherwise it's just parroting what the BSN is writitng to appeal to the masses, which is working.

Are you really such a credulous fool that you think the Weekes leak was fake? I pity you.

Regardless if it is ultimately true, he denied it.  I have to agree that the article did a poor job of conveying that it was a rumor and not a fact.  It shouldn't have been used at all to call them out.  The author had enough ammunition with the ridiculous interview itself.  

I would have used it too to be honest. It was too detailed and specific to not be true and the evidence is also very specific. I like how someone publicly denying something makes it true beyond any reasonable doubt, hence why Bill Clinton till this day did not have relations with that woman <_<. Anyway, its not like Bioware devs have lied about anything else...oh wait. Well its not like they have purposefully witheld information that has bearing on the game...nope thats also not right

[Bob3terd]

Ill be honest i did not expect the gaming media to support us, i expected to get lynched the moment the EC came out.

[Rajalia]

One thing is for sure... the artisitic integrity card they're pulling is merely a shield, just as saying that this ending was what they had planned all along. To say they were wrong and to essentially delete the end and recreate a new one would not only be a PR nightmare, but I've no doubt you'd see a backlash of lawsuits coming out. Whether it being false advertising of their product or some sort of bait and switch.

And worse... without an overall product recall, those without net access (because few as it may be, they still are out there) would never have the newer complete product.

While it's irritating as heck not to hear thema dmit they were wrong. Logically... i don't think they could without losing a lot more money.

Investor confidence has to have dropped at this point. DA2 poor quality, ME3 quality issues with the ending, and even Star Wars under performed to what they hoped for. There comes a point when people are forced to give the reins over to another in hopes to save face and try to start fresh.

I almost shudder to think what the backlash following EC could potentially be.

[3DandBeyond]

lord_shift wrote...

I discussed this point briefly with Jessica Merizan on Twitter, but her response was mostly "please try it out before judging, but we can't promise full satisfaction" (that's paraphrased). I hope she sees this because it's what I wanted to express to her.

It's great that they did the interview, but it's similar to a tech demo where the entire environment is so closed off and secure and scripted that nothing about it is real.

They never truly listened - that's the real problem.  It's inconceivable that not one person saw any flaws in this ending.  And for them to say it was artistic vision (wanting to adhere to their artistic integrity whatever the hell that means), well to their credit they never claimed it was their artistic vision, because it wasn't.  Deus ex called and they want their ending back.

Grown up people actually use introspection and apologies to sort things out.  They also listen to even obnoxious people.  Even the loud and vain have their story.  And the message is not always delivered to you in some neatly wrapped package-some of the best customers they will ever have are those that are not very tactful and quiet.  Businesses don't want quiet people, because you don't learn anything from them.  You make money with loud people.  Too bad.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 25 juin 2012 - 08:49 .

[Pedro Costa]

By the looks of it instead of only having to suffer through 10 minutes of nonsensical crap, I'll have a whole lot more minutes of pain... Joy.

I mean, how can you fix something when you can't even admit it's broken in the first place? You just... you just can't.

[WarBaby2]

DarkLord_PT wrote...

By the looks of it instead of only having to suffer through 10 minutes of nonsensical crap, I'll have a whole lot more minutes of pain... Joy.

I mean, how can you fix something when you can't even admit it's broken in the first place? You just... you just can't.

If you're ego is bloated anough to actually ditch the whole wiring staff to push in you "artistic vision" in the last days of development... nope, then you can't.

[thisisme8]

This is so funny. Look, I hate to rain on everyone's parade, but to believe that because it was published in an article, that it makes it any more legit, affirming, or real than a post on the forums is just dumb. The guy who wrote that article is probably a regular dude who hates the endings just as much as you do or don't. His professionalism is apparent as he quotes leaked information that is completely under question as fact. Listen, I don't care if it was real or not, you don't take your job seriously if you are pulling that kind of thing.

If you don't like the endings, fine - it has always been your right to have an opinion. Insulting BioWare because you feel betrayed about an ending that they kept telling you was going to happen is your own fault. Appreciate a story for what it is and move on. I don't like every ending that I read, but that's fine because that's the story I'm reading. Shep died in my story and it's sad and I wish I could have prevented it, but I'm sure Shepard wished the same damn thing. It's irrelevant because that's how the story ended.

This article is another shining example of everything wrong with media. It's biased, unprofessional, and caters to the popular attitude of our self-serving culture. Even as an opinion piece, it's muddled with self-pity.

I'm done.

[txmn1016]

TK EL wrote...

txmn1016 wrote...

recentio wrote...

xsdob wrote...

This person relys on false information to bash walters and hudson, citing a bioware employee leak long confirmed fake.

Otherwise it's just parroting what the BSN is writitng to appeal to the masses, which is working.

Are you really such a credulous fool that you think the Weekes leak was fake? I pity you.

Regardless if it is ultimately true, he denied it.  I have to agree that the article did a poor job of conveying that it was a rumor and not a fact.  It shouldn't have been used at all to call them out.  The author had enough ammunition with the ridiculous interview itself.  

I would have used it too to be honest. It was too detailed and specific to not be true and the evidence is also very specific. I like how someone publicly denying something makes it true beyond any reasonable doubt, hence why Bill Clinton till this day did not have relations with that woman <_<. Anyway, its not like Bioware devs have lied about anything else...oh wait. Well its not like they have purposefully witheld information that has bearing on the game...nope thats also not right

LIke I said, I just thought they should have been a bit clearer about it being a rumor/unverified.  No one except the developers will ever really know the truth. 

And maybe Bill Clinton didn't count BJs as "relations". 

[lord_shift]

3DandBeyond wrote...

lord_shift wrote...

I discussed this point briefly with Jessica Merizan on Twitter, but her response was mostly "please try it out before judging, but we can't promise full satisfaction" (that's paraphrased). I hope she sees this because it's what I wanted to express to her.

It's great that they did the interview, but it's similar to a tech demo where the entire environment is so closed off and secure and scripted that nothing about it is real.

They never truly listened - that's the real problem.  It's inconceivable that not one person saw any flaws in this ending.  And for them to say it was artistic vision (wanting to adhere to their artistic integrity whatever the hell that means), well to their credit they never claimed it was their artistic vision, because it wasn't.  Deus ex called and they want their ending back.

Grown up people actually use introspection and apologies to sort things out.  They also listen to even obnoxious people.  Even the loud and vain have their story.  And the message is not always delivered to you in some neatly wrapped package-some of the best customers they will ever have are those that are not very tactful and quiet.  Businesses don't want quiet people, because you don't learn anything from them.  You make money with loud people.  Too bad.

Agreed wholeheartedly. Or, worse, they listened but dismissed the arguments against the endings.

[lord_shift]

thisisme8 wrote...

This is so funny. Look, I hate to rain on everyone's parade, but to believe that because it was published in an article, that it makes it any more legit, affirming, or real than a post on the forums is just dumb. The guy who wrote that article is probably a regular dude who hates the endings just as much as you do or don't. His professionalism is apparent as he quotes leaked information that is completely under question as fact. Listen, I don't care if it was real or not, you don't take your job seriously if you are pulling that kind of thing.

If you don't like the endings, fine - it has always been your right to have an opinion. Insulting BioWare because you feel betrayed about an ending that they kept telling you was going to happen is your own fault. Appreciate a story for what it is and move on. I don't like every ending that I read, but that's fine because that's the story I'm reading. Shep died in my story and it's sad and I wish I could have prevented it, but I'm sure Shepard wished the same damn thing. It's irrelevant because that's how the story ended.

This article is another shining example of everything wrong with media. It's biased, unprofessional, and caters to the popular attitude of our self-serving culture. Even as an opinion piece, it's muddled with self-pity.

I'm done.

It's been very dry and hot here, so a little rain is awesome, thanks!

With that said, despite the article's "leanings" which you feel are blatant, the point of the argument is still valid. One creates a solution when one defines the problem correctly, the source of it, in fact. When you don't have that problem correctly defined and outlined, the solution will inherently be flawed.

Even with the internal PR interview that they're publicizing, they've shown that their perception of the problem does not align with that of the arguments posed by the fans. So, naturally, there will be complaints still.

I would say BioWare's recent actions are a shining example of what's wrong with the gaming development scene. It's run by the bottom-line return, dismissive of fans, and caters to the publisher/shareholders. Our culture is indeed self-serving, but, in this instance, it is not. Let's not muddle the two problems.

[WarBaby2]

lord_shift wrote...

Agreed wholeheartedly. Or, worse, they listened but dismissed the arguments against the endings.

Of course they did... their ending was awesome, all the whiners just didn't get it!

... that's the sole reason the EC was made in the first place.

[clos]

I've been a big fan of Gamefront since this whole ME3 fiasco started. Forbes/Gamefront have been honest and on point about everything.

[clos]

DarkLord_PT wrote...

By the looks of it instead of only having to suffer through 10 minutes of nonsensical crap, I'll have a whole lot more minutes of pain... Joy.

I mean, how can you fix something when you can't even admit it's broken in the first place? You just... you just can't.

I see. So you say your motor has a crack down the middle and your radiator is leaking a gallon a minute... here, let me replace your muffler, it seems that's the problem to us. Yeap, there, muffler fixed, now please go away.

What?! How dare you criticize me again after all I've done for you? I'm not just a mechanic, I'm an artist! I've got artistic integrity!

[thisisme8]

lord_shift wrote...

It's been very dry and hot here, so a little rain is awesome, thanks!

With that said, despite the article's "leanings" which you feel are blatant, the point of the argument is still valid. One creates a solution when one defines the problem correctly, the source of it, in fact. When you don't have that problem correctly defined and outlined, the solution will inherently be flawed.

Even with the internal PR interview that they're publicizing, they've shown that their perception of the problem does not align with that of the arguments posed by the fans. So, naturally, there will be complaints still.

I would say BioWare's recent actions are a shining example of what's wrong with the gaming development scene. It's run by the bottom-line return, dismissive of fans, and caters to the publisher/shareholders. Our culture is indeed self-serving, but, in this instance, it is not. Let's not muddle the two problems.

Actually, in professional journalism, which this is not - face it, it's a blog - the entire article is invalid just because it uses that "leak."  Again, I'm not going to argue the validity of the leak, just that its use invalidates everything the article states, even if every other point is completely valid.

So, lessons in professionalism aside, in my opinion, even the issue of "not listening to fans who demand a change" is not worth addressing.  Too many fans have too many problems that are based on too many things either real or perceived.  At the same time, saying that the vocal fans are the majority of their customer base so things should be changed to meet their demands is a false assumption.  The mere existance of the EC is BioWare addressing the largest possible audience on feasable terms.  To say that BioWare doesn't perceive the problem is another assumption, and to not get addressed for your specific problem is mere selfishness.  And no one can argue that BioWare has no idea what the fans want, they have just as much access to the forums as anyone else.  To say that Mac and Casey are oblivious is to say that you know their vision and their vision is wrong, which is impossible.

[The Interloper]

humes spork wrote...

Yes, the irony of professional storytellers asking the audience to rely on their own imaginations to fill in the gaps they didn’t bother to cover, and then being somewhat surprised when they weren’t able to do it, is indeed funny.

I don't even know where to begin with this. It's almost as if whoever wrote this article has never seen a Kubrick film, read anything by Philip K. Dick or seen any of the films based upon his works.

I know people have responded to this already, but...no. Just no. The writer generalizes, but there is a time and a place for open endings and ME3 wasn't it. And while I haven't read any Phil Dick, from what I've seen Kubrick's works are cerebral from the beginning. You expect the unexpected.

A straightforward action story is not the place to be going allegorical and implicatory (is that even a word?) in the last half hour.

[WarBaby2]

The Interloper wrote...

A straightforward action story is not the place to be going allegorical and implicatory (is that even a word?) in the last half hour.

Besides, Kubrick never used cheap, last minute plot devices (2001's ending was not cheap...) and he knew how to use foreshadowing... also, face it, neither Walters nor Hudsen come anywhere near this level of genious... never.

Modifié par WarBaby2, 25 juin 2012 - 09:34 .

[glacier1701]

 A good quote for that interview and perhaps a summation of what Hudson and Walters did and still managed to convey in the interview:


 "He who destroys a good book kills reason itself"    John Milton

 
 Pretty much what Hudson and Walters have done - killed what was a good 'series' and have managed to lose all reason in the process both their own, their PR department, many 'gamesites' and critics. Perhaps they need to sit down and REALLY think why people play games (HINT: its not for moral lessons, ethics or artistic integrity) they play to WIN. Anyways nice article and pretty much shows how out of touch BioWare has become with the majority of their customers.

Modifié par glacier1701, 25 juin 2012 - 09:39 .

[lord_shift]

thisisme8 wrote...

lord_shift wrote...

It's been very dry and hot here, so a little rain is awesome, thanks!

With that said, despite the article's "leanings" which you feel are blatant, the point of the argument is still valid. One creates a solution when one defines the problem correctly, the source of it, in fact. When you don't have that problem correctly defined and outlined, the solution will inherently be flawed.

Even with the internal PR interview that they're publicizing, they've shown that their perception of the problem does not align with that of the arguments posed by the fans. So, naturally, there will be complaints still.

I would say BioWare's recent actions are a shining example of what's wrong with the gaming development scene. It's run by the bottom-line return, dismissive of fans, and caters to the publisher/shareholders. Our culture is indeed self-serving, but, in this instance, it is not. Let's not muddle the two problems.

Actually, in professional journalism, which this is not - face it, it's a blog - the entire article is invalid just because it uses that "leak."  Again, I'm not going to argue the validity of the leak, just that its use invalidates everything the article states, even if every other point is completely valid.

So, lessons in professionalism aside, in my opinion, even the issue of "not listening to fans who demand a change" is not worth addressing.  Too many fans have too many problems that are based on too many things either real or perceived.  At the same time, saying that the vocal fans are the majority of their customer base so things should be changed to meet their demands is a false assumption.  The mere existance of the EC is BioWare addressing the largest possible audience on feasable terms.  To say that BioWare doesn't perceive the problem is another assumption, and to not get addressed for your specific problem is mere selfishness.  And no one can argue that BioWare has no idea what the fans want, they have just as much access to the forums as anyone else.  To say that Mac and Casey are oblivious is to say that you know their vision and their vision is wrong, which is impossible.

I guess the whole point about them not discussing or acknowledge the thematic (in)consistency in the ending relative to the entire series was not something worthy to discuss? Regardless, the EC is the most feasible solution in this situation, I agree.

However, my issue is that this "entire situation" was constructed by BioWare themselves when they chose not to interact with the fans and dismiss them, in some cases, insult. I don't even care about the ending anymore. I may or may not play EC depending on my schedule. What does matter to me is the principles behind their behavior. It reeks of someone miffed of their work being criticized. Whether it was for time constraints or even trying something daring with the story or just a bad implementation, there are many issues with the ME3 ending as well as ME3 overall.

So, yes, EC is the most viable and sensible solution, but... it's for a problem BioWare identified in a situation BioWare created, not what the critics have said, both fans and in the press (at least those that weren't blasting the fans as being whiny).

[LanceSolous13]

Ok, I DO NOT MIND using my imagination for thing that the plot DOES NOT hinge on. The ending...I'm pretty sure the Plot Hinges on that. I can perfectly fine head canon what happens when Liara turns 200 or when Jack's Biotic Kids Graduate from Grissom. But when you leave it completely up in the air on whom survived and who didn't as well as the Normandy Crash scene which VERY MUCH feels like a Sequel Hook, That's not something a good writer should leave up for interpretation.

[AlexMBrennan]

What a pointless article - do you really need someone else to tell you that a PR person pretending to interview Hudson is silly?

[M0keys]

dreamgazer wrote...

humes spork wrote...

Yes, the irony of professional storytellers asking the audience to rely on their own imaginations to fill in the gaps they didn’t bother to cover, and then being somewhat surprised when they weren’t able to do it, is indeed funny.

I don't even know where to begin with this. It's almost as if whoever wrote this article has never seen a Kubrick film, read anything by Philip K. Dick or seen any of the films based upon his works.

Unfortunately, it appears to be indicative of the modern era's progression towards a new mainstream perception of narrative. It's a real shame.

excuse me but explaining the story to your audience is thousands of years old.

[Warrior Craess]

dreamgazer wrote...

humes spork wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Unfortunately, it appears to be indicative of the modern era's progression towards a new mainstream perception of narrative. It's a real shame.

Indeed. Hell, it wasn't but ten years ago that Minority Report came out and got absolutely carpet bombed for its ending among moviegoers and critics alike...until people figured the ending out, anyhow.

Many, many moviegoers still don't know about it.

what, wait,  there was something unusual about the ending to minority report?  Seemed pretty clear to me. 

[christrek1982]

dorktainian wrote...

the truth points to itself....

nice B5 Quote dude.

[GreenDragon37]

Atakuma wrote...

Ultimately the one thing I think everyone can agree on, is that Bioware's PR is atrocious.

Something we can agree on.

[Mythx88]

clos wrote...

DarkLord_PT wrote...

By the looks of it instead of only having to suffer through 10 minutes of nonsensical crap, I'll have a whole lot more minutes of pain... Joy.

I mean, how can you fix something when you can't even admit it's broken in the first place? You just... you just can't.

I see. So you say your motor has a crack down the middle and your radiator is leaking a gallon a minute... here, let me replace your muffler, it seems that's the problem to us. Yeap, there, muffler fixed, now please go away.

What?! How dare you criticize me again after all I've done for you? I'm not just a mechanic, I'm an artist! I've got artistic integrity!

This.