99 réponses à ce sujet

[hellodie]

Without the CD Check, many people would buy the game, install it, and then pass it onto a friend or family member to install. It may travel between a dozen pairs of hands, costing Bioware 11 sales.

Still possible if played offline. However, it's not 11 sales lost...a (probably high) percentage of those 11 would not have gone as far as to buy the game anyways. But, having tried DA:O they may buy it later, or buy expansions or buy DA:O 2 or other Bioware games... Who knows how much Bioware loses, then?



As for the CD check, I am very happy that it's what's being used. Several companies install rogue programs that function similarly to rootkit (the worst kind of malware that completely bypasses the OS. On top of that, antivirus programs have a really tough time detecting and removing them). Gotta prefer CD checks heh?

[DragonRageGT]

Sartheris wrote...

 I suggest a simple solution - no CD Check for the people logged-in in their Bioware accounts!
So?

That's been answered by Torias, few posts ago. But it would only work IF there was a relation with the registered cd key with the ability to spot other copies of the same CD key being used at the same time... which would mean no more off-line games. I stick with the CD check even being logged 100% of the time.

[Sartheris]

I edited my last post, please check it

[bjdbwea]

hellodie wrote...

As for the CD check, I am very happy that it's what's being used. Several companies install rogue programs that function similarly to rootkit (the worst kind of malware that completely bypasses the OS. On top of that, antivirus programs have a really tough time detecting and removing them). Gotta prefer CD checks heh?

Yes, the copy protection is quite lenient (and in effect even more useless and only harassing the honest customer). But as you probably know, DA also installs its very own system service. It may not be used for copy protection per se but rather for "DLC management", yet you don't know what exactly it does either, do you?

Modifié par bjdbwea, 14 décembre 2009 - 10:56 .

[DarwinJames]

Ah, yes. We all get tired of the requirement to put the dum de dum in the dee dee dee just to play a game. The more irritating when your dee dee dee makes an obnoxious noise when it spins up. There is a way around this, but we are nice children and cannot mention it here.

[KariTR]

Torias wrote...

Niten Ryu wrote...

Torias wrote...

Fredescu wrote...

A good way of handling it would be disabling the CD check if you're logged in to a valid Bioware account.

However, that would allow two people to simultaneously use the one copy... one with the cd and logged out, one with no cd and logged into their valid bioware account...

Uh... or maybe they wouldn't bother with such trivialities and just type the title of this thread and name of this game on google. Seriously, we're not living in the world of Pool of Radiance codedisks and Xerox machines anymore

As I said, Bioware know that they cannot prevent all piracy.

They have taken steps to minimise piracy, balanced against looking after their customers.

Without the CD Check, many people would buy the game, install it, and then pass it onto a friend or family member to install. It may travel between a dozen pairs of hands, costing Bioware 11 sales.

These people most likely have never heard of any of the "advanced piracy" things that we take as "common knowledge".

I have no issue with a CD check, I must take issue with the bolded statement however. Bioware themselves said that only one copy of DA:O would be needed per household, it is NOT piracy for my flatmate and I to share a boxed copy.

As it happens, if you want a swiz profile all your own along with additional forum privileges, then you will need your own copy, but let's not pretend it is illegal to share a CD with your spouse.

[Godeshus]

astrallite wrote...

You could take the Blizzard route. After the game has been released for a certain amount of time, introduce a no-cd patch.

This reduces costs for the company since you don't have to be in the business of replacing scratched discs. And most of your sales have already passed so there's little point in even a disc check.

Egosoft's X3 and X3: Terran Conflict were both released with Starforce *shudders and almost falls into a coma. 1 year after initial release, they release a patch which removes it from the game, and they have a tool that wipes the drivers completely from your system. I only bought those games after that patch, though. I outright refuse to buy ANY game that has the audacity to use Starforce for copy protection. In fact, I'd put a 60$ game into a broken dvd rom that shreds my disk and spews out the pieces before I install a piece of software that can potentially cause irreversible damage to my $2k Rig.

To the OP: At least it ain't starforce.

[GhostMatter]

You can download the game and install it with the EA Download Manager if you add it's CD-ke to it.

[Adria Teksuni]

KariTR wrote...
As it happens, if you want a swiz profile all your own along with additional forum privileges, then you will need your own copy, but let's not pretend it is illegal to share a CD with your spouse.

And where, in any of that, did Torias say it was?  It is possible for friends and family members to not actually live with you, you know.

You must have a ginormous house.

[hellodie]

From: bjdbwea
Yes, the copy protection is quite lenient (and in effect even more useless and only harassing the honest customer). But as you probably know, DA also installs its very own system service. It may not be used for copy protection per se but rather for "DLC management", yet you don't know what exactly it does either, do you?

Yes, I don't know how it communicates with the interwebz. And I'm consistent with what I said above: I forbid it to send anything anywhere; and that's why I can't retrieve my "free" DLCs either


Is it a rootkit style program? Because as long as it's a "normal" service, it's not the same issue. If it's a normal service and if it uninstalls properly with the game, it's okay. Albeit, I don't like it either. I'd rather have my DLC downloaded by hand and activated offline with their serial key along with the serial key of the game.


I don't suscribe to rogue program installations in the name of "fighting piracy". I don't suscribe to hidden communications with the internet either. I should be given extended options as to exactly what I want to be sent and what not. I should be given extended options as to exactly what I want to be installed and what not.


Besides, a game shouldn't send anything else than game data, as in "move left, use potion" for multiplayer games; and "send achievement" in the case of DA:O. Alas, it's not the case in the hard facts of reality.

Modifié par hellodie, 14 décembre 2009 - 11:18 .

[Torias]

bjdbwea wrote...
Yes, the copy protection is quite lenient (and in effect even more useless and only harassing the honest customer).

No, it is not "more useless".

It is "more targetted".

It perfectly prevents casual piracy from people who buy the game, find they don't need the cd any more and then happily share it around with other people (who use a different computer). They might not even realise what they are doing is regarded as "wrong" and "piracy".

That situation, which is far more prevalent than "expert advanced pirates" is what bioware is targetting with their copy protection scheme.

[Godeshus]

Torias wrote...

bjdbwea wrote...
Yes, the copy protection is quite lenient (and in effect even more useless and only harassing the honest customer).

No, it is not "more useless".

It is "more targetted".

It perfectly prevents casual piracy from people who buy the game, find they don't need the cd any more and then happily share it around with other people (who use a different computer). They might not even realise what they are doing is regarded as "wrong" and "piracy".

That situation, which is far more prevalent than "expert advanced pirates" is what bioware is targetting with their copy protection scheme.

You're right, Torias. I never considered this to be piracy, although none of my friends are gamers so my copies always end up collecting dust. It also makes sense that this would be the most prevailing form of piracy out there. An interesting perspective, and as you mentioned, most people probably don't even realize it.

I consider this to be a smart approach. "expert advanced pirates", as you call them, will always crack a copy protection, given time. Most often it's done the day the game is released, no matter how good the protection. Sinking money into fighting against this is futile at best. You might as well just take all your cash set in on fire.

Modifié par Godeshus, 14 décembre 2009 - 11:21 .

[bjdbwea]

But it is more useless  in that regard. Certainly a real copy protection would prevent even more "casual piracy" if that's what they want to do. The matter of the fact being that you don't even need to be an "expert advanced pirate" to "backup" your game if it only does a simple DVD check.

[KariTR]

Adria Teksuni wrote...

KariTR wrote...
As it happens, if you want a swiz profile all your own along with additional forum privileges, then you will need your own copy, but let's not pretend it is illegal to share a CD with your spouse.

And where, in any of that, did Torias say it was?  It is possible for friends and family members to not actually live with you, you know.

You must have a ginormous house.

Don't be so defensive. You may have decided that the comment below applied only to those outside your household, but it needed clarifying as it was certainly not made clear.

"Without the CD Check, many people would buy the game, install it, and then pass it onto a friend or family member to install"

[AndrewN]

I don't see what the problem is. I have been playing computer games for years and I don't even consider starting a game up without the DVD in the machine (and before that the CD, the floppy disk and the tape).



As for the 'cracked and worn' disk, what are you people doing with them? I have never had an optical disk of any sort fail on me. Audio and computer CD's from 15 years or more ago still work fine.

[KariTR]

Torias wrote...

bjdbwea wrote...
Yes, the copy protection is quite lenient (and in effect even more useless and only harassing the honest customer).

No, it is not "more useless".

It is "more targetted".

It perfectly prevents casual piracy from people who buy the game, find they don't need the cd any more and then happily share it around with other people (who use a different computer). They might not even realise what they are doing is regarded as "wrong" and "piracy".

That situation, which is far more prevalent than "expert advanced pirates" is what bioware is targetting with their copy protection scheme.

Per household /= per computer.

[KariTR]

AndrewN wrote...

I don't see what the problem is. I have been playing computer games for years and I don't even consider starting a game up without the DVD in the machine (and before that the CD, the floppy disk and the tape).

As for the 'cracked and worn' disk, what are you people doing with them? I have never had an optical disk of any sort fail on me. Audio and computer CD's from 15 years or more ago still work fine.

I agree with you, but I know music lovers who treat their CDs with almost surgical sterility. One even gets annoyed if the CD isnt put the "right" way up in the case

Me? I fold over book pages if I can't find a marker and actually prefer my books to look well-read.

[Torias]

bjdbwea wrote...

But it is more useless  in that regard. Certainly a real copy protection would prevent even more "casual piracy" if that's what they want to do. The matter of the fact being that you don't even need to be an "expert advanced pirate" to "backup" your game if it only does a simple DVD check.

It is a balancing act between minimising piracy and not getting in the way of your users.

They are conflicting goals. Bioware cannot exclusively focus on one or the other, but instead try to find the best balance between them.

Most people in the world have no idea what would be involved in circumvent the copy protection that Dragon Age uses.

[Badger8126]

Mesecina wrote...

Badger8126 wrote...

I don't mean to offend you but I don't just need the disk for reinstallation but everytime I start the game.
As for DD you never own those downloaded games, you borrow them until they stop providing you with the download.

Errrrrr no?
You get a copy of the game on your drive which you can backup anywhere you like + should you somehow lose it still they provide you with another download as long as you have the confirmation email somewhere in the dephts of your email account + all the patches (at least for DAO) work with digital edition straight from Bioware.
I should note I'm talking d2d here, no idea about Steam though...
For people like me who keep losing DVDs or manage to get them scratched only by looking at them (honest) this is a waaaaaay preferable alternative (+ a lot cheaper)

So that would mean there is no reason not to have a no cd patch
If I can already have my cake and eat it then why can't I eat my cake ?
People who bought the cd version are being discriminated against.

[Adria Teksuni]

KariTR wrote...
Don't be so defensive. You may have decided that the comment below applied only to those outside your household, but it needed clarifying as it was certainly not made clear.

"Without the CD Check, many people would buy the game, install it, and then pass it onto a friend or family member to install"

Sorry, meant for that to come out more lighthearted than it did.  Curse my lack of emoticon usage!

However, when I read what Torias wrote, I did not think "what about people living with me". 

Clarification is never a bad thing.

[DragonRageGT]

What I still question is who are the "expert advanced pirates"?

A - The hundreds of thousands of people that find a free way to get a copy of a game they would never buy in the first place, without anyone else getting any kind of financial profit, because they can't afford it, because the product is never released in their country and they don't have international credit cards for an online purchase or just because they didn't like it after trying it out?

(And a big part of those might end up buying the product somewhere in time because they got a break and now they can afford it, the product was finally released in their country so they can pay cash or because they liked it and want it all, patches, extra content, etc.)

B - Or the few well organized gangs with very rich individuals that own factories with pressing dvd machines, produces millions of copies of those and sell them cheap around the world, both PC or Console version, and the millions of ppls that are actually purchasing something that illegal with full knowledge of what they're doing, thus fomenting such industry in a way that they end up making more money than the original owners of the product?

While I'm in no way defending piracy and I buy everything I want because, luckly, I can afford it,  I'd say that those are two very different situations and I hope some intelligent people at least know that the latter ( is indeed what is causing huge financial losses to the rightful owners as "lost sales" since somebody in the middle is actually getting money that should be going to the product owners, while in the former situation (A) the loss is only fictional since they would never be getting that money to begin with and it might even bring a few more sales if the product is that good and it's natural that people will want to have it the right way when they can do it.

Now, huzzah for the CD-check... a lot better than rootkit SecuRom imposing conditions never told, that I never agreed to, and phisically damaging my CD-DVD ROM!

And an honest question: While I still have not done it, is it ok if I copy my DVD and burn a new one to place at the ROM while my original and beloved one goes back to my hard paper CE box with its paper map? (Do I feel cheated when the advertised was Metal box and cloth map?)

I really don't care for small prints in imposed contracts when there are supra laws ruling on the matter but the US laws have too many sections and §'s and is too technical for a non-lawyer foreigner simpleton song writter to understand fully.

[T0paze]

The game's copy protection is a joke.

Or, to be more precise, what is supposed to be copy protection is a joke. That's why Bioware is getting lots of praises. Their real copy protection is in the DLC.

Modifié par Torias, 14 décembre 2009 - 01:28 .

[Adria Teksuni]

RageGT wrote...

What I still question is who are the "expert advanced pirates"?

A - The hundreds of thousands of people that find a free way to get a copy of a game they would never buy in the first place, without anyone else getting any kind of financial profit, because they can't afford it, because the product is never released in their country and they don't have international credit cards for an online purchase or just because they didn't like it after trying it out?

B - Or the few well organized gangs with very rich individuals that own factories with pressing dvd machines, produces millions of copies of those and sell them cheap around the world, both PC or Console version, and the millions of ppls that are actually purchasing something that illegal with full knowledge of what they're doing, thus fomenting such industry in a way that they end up making more money than the original owners of the product

Or C, those who find absolutely nothing wrong with [stealing] it for anyone and everyone to download for free, including those who would have otherwise bought the game.  I don't know about you, but I know lots of folks who haven't bought anything digital in years, because they can just [steal] it all. 

Maybe I just know too many cheap geeks...

Edit - EEP!  So used to using that as a verb I totally flaked out.  Thanks for catching it!  So sorry!

Modifié par Adria Teksuni, 14 décembre 2009 - 03:44 .

[Torias]

T0paze wrote...

The game's copy protection is a joke.

Or, to be more precise, what is supposed to be copy protection is a joke. That's why Bioware is getting lots of praises. Their real copy protection is in the DLC.

No, it is not a joke.

It is a balance between minimising piracy (particularly casual piracy from non-technical users) and minimising problems for legitimate customers.

Also, you are not allowed to post information on this site regarding possible methods of circumventing the copy protection of Dragon Age.

Modifié par Torias, 14 décembre 2009 - 01:29 .

[Lord Chaos]

Torias wrote...

Yes, the "Digital Distribution" versions of the games do not come with cds.

EA Store, Steam, Direct2Drive and Impulse (I don't know of any more) all provide a way to buy Dragon Age through their service, and then download the game from them.

The downloading and installation of the game is matched up with your account with each of them, and that is used as the "copy protection" mechanism for them.

I personally am a big fan of Steam and buy all the games I can through that... makes life easier for me not having to juggle lots of disks and such ;-)

Well, I liked having the collectors edition. The constantly changing disks is a pain in the rear and since I play many games and only load DA:O for a short time every time, there's a lot of diskswapping daily and my DA:O disk already has minor scratches to it.

This is really annoying and I'd prefer a bit more intrusive copy protection (and would prevent piracy), instead of having a damaged collectors edition that will eventually become unreadable.

As for balanced...I asked my mother (who's old, can barely operate a computer as is and doesn't game) to try and pirate DA:O, it took her about half an hour to get it and about 10 minutes to install it...and it worked perfectly. (Collectors edition even) I must say that Bioware has failed in its attempt at limiting piracy and is now just annoying legit costumers.