173 réponses à ce sujet

[ShadowRanger88]

tl;dr Phantom's are fine the way they are. All I hear is QQ from someone who doesn't like to deal with phantoms.

Play turian sentinel. Overload will take down their barriers, hurricane to the face = dead phantom in seconds

Modifié par ShadowRanger88, 26 juin 2012 - 12:53 .

[MaxShine]

Please, do not change anything about them... The only thing that is not correct about phantoms is that you cannot revive yourself with medigel when two phantom are near you... They will melee you when you get up and knock you down and it is over. Somehow when you use medigel you are immune to gunfire for a short time, but the phantom melee still can hit you and you cannot escape, you even cannot medigel + rocket, because you get stunned... That should be changed...

[Fox-snipe]

DragoGoldenwing wrote...

There's a lot of 'Well I and my pro co-players can handle Phantoms just fine by adhering to a single strategy for dealing with them that not every player has access to, so therefore Phantoms do not need to be looked at.'

This is called a fallacy of composition.

Stop it.

Just because you and your group can handle Phantoms by adhering to a single strategy for killing them does not mean the entirety of the playerbase possesses the same ability.

The fact is that a single enemy in a single faction is dictating pre-game weapon and power choice for the majority of the playerbase, because if you do not have a specialized set of tools for dealing with them, then the average pub will lose to them.

That is not a desirable trait in a single enemy regardless of an individual or small subset's ability to cope with it.

You make it sound like only one or two classes have a weapon in their hands.

Bring a side-arm, even if it's just a Predator.  Once she puts that shield up, unload into her head.  Failing that, use a Cobra (optionally try to kite a few of them together for maximum efficiency).

The Phantom is not some special deity that is only vulnerably to Weapon Z.  If you're an Adept you should be using a powerful Pistol (and Stasis helps).  If you're a Tech you probaly have a power or two that can still damage (or distract) her.  If you're a hybrid, well, Guns (same as the other classes, you just have more options).

Or you can run away and hope another player saves you.

Modifié par Fox-snipe, 26 juin 2012 - 12:56 .

[El_Pwnzor]

JaimasOfRaxis wrote...

El_Pwnzor wrote...

OP, I'd actually be okay with this if they boosted the health on a phantom. Because of their magic space ninja shields, you can't actually tell how squishy they actually are. To put it in context, on gold, phantoms have 2362.5 barriers and 1687.5 health. Centurions have 1687.5 shields and 1860 health. Without that invulnerability, they would be laughably easy. And comparing Cerberus to the Geth or Reapers, we can't let Cerberus become any weaker.
Not to mention how useless Stasis would become.

They still die from gunshots already. This is about not needlessly screwing over power-dependant classes needlessly because all of two classes out of well over 30 can deal with them reliably.

It's still by far a very fair tradeout, IMO. The majority of other enemies can be killed much more effectively with powers as opposed to weapon oriented classes. Especially since the removal of weakpoints on boss units, weapons find themselves underwhelming compared to an adept who can effectively dish out BEs (and in the event that it can, it gets nerfed to oblivion). But we digress from the current topic.
Edit: Also, I find that it helps to fire your powers right after the phantom completes her roll. 90% of the time I have no problem hitting her with powers.

Modifié par El_Pwnzor, 26 juin 2012 - 01:03 .

[Asebstos]

I don't think I've ever seen a Phantom palm-block Ballistic Blades.

[jfruelas521]

The problem is without phantoms, Cerberus becomes the easiest enemy type by far. Let's go down the list.

Assault trooper - not a threat
Guardian - not a threat, only a pain to deal with shield
Centurion - not too much of a threat
Nemesis - good at dropping shields but not much else
Atlas - easiest boss level enemy, slow, big target, no magnet hands or perma-stunlock.

I consider phantoms much more dangerous than an Atlas. Without hard phantoms, Cerberus becomes a joke.  Phantoms are hard not only due to their BS maneuvers, but also due to their numbers on the battlefield.  I think around 4 usually spawn on the later waves on gold whereas only 2 atlases spawn (if memory serves correctly)

Modifié par jfruelas521, 26 juin 2012 - 01:03 .

[JaimasOfRaxis]

So to reiterate: Reliable anti-Phantom powers are Stasis and gunshots. That is literally it. Anything else is a crap-shoot, though Overload and Energy Drain often work well.

What this usually means is that power-intensive classes are disproportionately screwed by derpy invulnerable shields (you know, on top of their flawless dodge skills, superlative agility, ability to recover, etc). It is sickening, and perhaps baffling - many classes have sub-par power loadouts, and this sort of idiocy only screws these classes all the harder, on top of this.

I increasingly get the feeling where only I've seen a Phantom shrug off a barrage of Proxy Mines/Concussive Shots/Biotic Powers/Grenades, only for a lucky blast from my Wraith or a blast from a canny Infiltrator on my team remove half of a Phantom's face, or the dozens of more times on gold where I've seen a Phantom Conga Line inflict a TPK with no way of stopping it shy of missiles. Seriously, if you guys haven't had problems with this multiple times, I'd love to live in your world, because this kind of crap happens a lot where I game.

[kmmd60]

Phantom "talk to the hand" is not hard to counter, high RoF weapons works very well on them. Shoot enough to get rid of her barrier and she switch on "retreat mode" - go hunt her invisible ass down.

Literally, two power that can be reliably cast on her is overload and Edrain. Lash is 50/50. Others power can be cast from behind her.

If you take this power out of phantom - Cerberus would be a joke since the other unit that capable of instant kill is Atlas and can be killed easily.

[Kalas Magnus]

I hate them but cerberus is too easy otherwise.

[SeeNoEvilHearNoEvil]

JaimasOfRaxis wrote...

So to reiterate: Reliable anti-Phantom powers are Stasis and gunshots. That is literally it. Anything else is a crap-shoot, though Overload and Energy Drain often work well.

What this usually means is that power-intensive classes are disproportionately screwed by derpy invulnerable shields (you know, on top of their flawless dodge skills, superlative agility, ability to recover, etc). It is sickening, and perhaps baffling - many classes have sub-par power loadouts, and this sort of idiocy only screws these classes all the harder, on top of this.

I increasingly get the feeling where only I've seen a Phantom shrug off a barrage of Proxy Mines/Concussive Shots/Biotic Powers/Grenades, only for a lucky blast from my Wraith or a blast from a canny Infiltrator on my team remove half of a Phantom's face, or the dozens of more times on gold where I've seen a Phantom Conga Line inflict a TPK with no way of stopping it shy of missiles. Seriously, if you guys haven't had problems with this multiple times, I'd love to live in your world, because this kind of crap happens a lot where I game.

Hm... this world you'd like to live in is also my world and obviously most others as well. Maybe you are having bad luck with your squads, or have a mental block when it comes to Phantoms?

What do you think about Banshees? Too strong? Too weak? What will it be?

It might be the difficulty level as well. Bronze and gold are quite a different experience. I'm not meaning to attack you, just trying to get some "closure".

[DragoGoldenwing]

Fox-snipe wrote...

DragoGoldenwing wrote...

There's a lot of 'Well I and my pro co-players can handle Phantoms just fine by adhering to a single strategy for dealing with them that not every player has access to, so therefore Phantoms do not need to be looked at.'

This is called a fallacy of composition.

Stop it.

Just because you and your group can handle Phantoms by adhering to a single strategy for killing them does not mean the entirety of the playerbase possesses the same ability.

The fact is that a single enemy in a single faction is dictating pre-game weapon and power choice for the majority of the playerbase, because if you do not have a specialized set of tools for dealing with them, then the average pub will lose to them.

That is not a desirable trait in a single enemy regardless of an individual or small subset's ability to cope with it.

You make it sound like only one or two classes have a weapon in their hands.

Bring a side-arm, even if it's just a Predator.  Once she puts that shield up, unload into her head.  Failing that, use a Cobra (optionally try to kite a few of them together for maximum efficiency).

The Phantom is not some special deity that is only vulnerably to Weapon Z.  If you're an Adept you should be using a powerful Pistol (and Stasis helps).  If you're a Tech you probaly have a power or two that can still damage (or distract) her.  If you're a hybrid, well, Guns (same as the other classes, you just have more options).

Or you can run away and hope another player saves you.

The number of classes capable of using weapons to any effect against a shielded Phantom that's unloading mind-bullets into them with Widow damage at Predator fire rate =/= the number of classes capable of taking a weapon along.

I am complaining specifically about casters having problems dealing with them.  If you spec for power damage - which you have to in order to make a dent in most things in Gold - your weapon damage becomes...  Suboptimal.  Especially since casters are forced by the playerbase to carry light weapons (Usually SMGs with ammo effects,) or they risk getting kicked out of lobbies.
Unloading a Predator into a Phantom's head that is blowing yours off with her hand-cannon with any class best described as 'squishy' or 'egglike' is a recipe for disaster.  You'll die long before she suffers any marked damage.  Weapon-based classes tend to be much hardier and can take a couple of shots to kill the things, but power-based classes have VERY limited options when it comes to dealing with a Phantom, much less hordes of them.  Hordes of them released on each wave on Gold because Bioware figured out that Cerberus is a joke and their idea of 'fixing it' was overpowering Phantoms and giving Cerberus the wonderful tactic of huge Phantom rushes to push characters out of cover and into Turret fields as they retreat.

One Adept has Stasis.  Stasis is currently considered a requirement by most pubs who are going to be dealing with Phantoms to the point that I've been in groups that kicked other more competent players to make room for a less-effective player who just happened to have an Asari Adept, because 'We're fighting Cerberus, we need Stasis.'

You can say 'Well no really good player needs that crutch,' but you're talking about pubs.  If they were really good they wouldn't be using public matches and trusting to the game gods to deliver them unto a group that isn't bad.

I have already said I do not think they need to lose the shield, I said they need to lose the ability to out-DPS every other enemy in their wave combined while keeping the shield up.  Take away their hand-cannon while they're using the shield and they retain a high degree of challenge to deal with while reducing their cheese factor to acceptable levels.

They already stealth better than the Geth Hunter, snipe better than the Nemesis, melee better than the Brute, and instant-kill better than the Banshee.  They don't NEED Banshee invulnerability on top of everything else to maintain a threatening battlefield presence.

[Ulrich282]

On the Batarain soldier you just greet them on sight with a Ballistic Blade blast and the Enforcement Gauntlet to the face.

And also a good amount of the time she crouches there, looks at you, then is just mowed down by the team.

[Catastrophy]

Strict31 wrote...

I think Phantoms are a cheap and crappy enemy. If you've ever played a table-top RPG, the Phantom is like when a sh*tty Game Master brings in his favorite character as an NPC or as an enemy for the players, and then does everything he can to make that character AWESOMES. Or when an equally sh*tty Game Master keeps tweaking the rules behind the scenes to keep the players from easily beating an enemy he thought would be kick-ass.

...

Yeah, I remember these times. And the best thing is: The players would always figure out cheap GM tactics.

[Atheosis]

People whining about the only remotely challenging enemy in the easiest faction tickle me.

[DragoGoldenwing]

Atheosis wrote...

People whining about the only remotely challenging enemy in the easiest faction tickle me.

People whining about people whining about the most challenging boss unit in the game to deal with who is in such a state specifically because the devs can't be arsed to address balance issues with the entire faction and instead elected to give them Superman with a sword to 'balance' their overall combat ability  tickle me.

There's a phrase.  You can't stiffen a bucket of spit with a handful of buckshot.  But that's just what Bioware tried to do with the Phantom - they threw a few stiff handfuls of buckshot into the bucket of spit that is every other Cerb unit and called that enough.

It's not.  Nerf the Phantom, buff the other units and present a more even challenge instead of throwing four superstealth cockroach-quick hard-to-pin-down melee instant-killers that also just happen to have a brain-Eagle that shoots Widow rounds three or four times a wave and calling that 'balanced'.

Because no matter how much people like you mock everyone else for not being leet enough to hack it against Phantoms like you and your bros can, the above situation will never be called 'balanced'.

[GordianKnot42]

Phantom, as it is, takes all the cheapness of the Geth and rolls them into one skinny little package. Invisibility, invulnerability, long-range sniping, short-range insta-kill, outrageous dodging capabilities, fast close-in. It's ridiculous to have an enemy that, in all practicality, only a couple of classes stand a real chance of taking out. It's the one enemy that when I see her coming I'm like "Well, that's all folks."

Frankly I'd prefer her to lose that damn palm sniping cannon. There's no reason an enemy that powerful up close should also be allowed to wipe out your shields with one hit from across the map. Might as well make a Krogan Infiltrator. But I agree one of her powers has to go.

[JaimasOfRaxis]

DragoGoldenwing wrote...

Atheosis wrote...

People whining about the only remotely challenging enemy in the easiest faction tickle me.

People whining about people whining about the most challenging boss unit in the game to deal with who is in such a state specifically because the devs can't be arsed to address balance issues with the entire faction and instead elected to give them Superman with a sword to 'balance' their overall combat ability  tickle me.

There's a phrase.  You can't stiffen a bucket of spit with a handful of buckshot.  But that's just what Bioware tried to do with the Phantom - they threw a few stiff handfuls of buckshot into the bucket of spit that is every other Cerb unit and called that enough.

It's not.  Nerf the Phantom, buff the other units and present a more even challenge instead of throwing four superstealth cockroach-quick hard-to-pin-down melee instant-killers that also just happen to have a brain-Eagle that shoots Widow rounds three or four times a wave and calling that 'balanced'.

Because no matter how much people like you mock everyone else for not being leet enough to hack it against Phantoms like you and your bros can, the above situation will never be called 'balanced'.

The Volus speaks truth.

[Atheosis]

DragoGoldenwing wrote...

Atheosis wrote...

People whining about the only remotely challenging enemy in the easiest faction tickle me.

People whining about people whining about the most challenging boss unit in the game to deal with who is in such a state specifically because the devs can't be arsed to address balance issues with the entire faction and instead elected to give them Superman with a sword to 'balance' their overall combat ability  tickle me.

There's a phrase.  You can't stiffen a bucket of spit with a handful of buckshot.  But that's just what Bioware tried to do with the Phantom - they threw a few stiff handfuls of buckshot into the bucket of spit that is every other Cerb unit and called that enough.

It's not.  Nerf the Phantom, buff the other units and present a more even challenge instead of throwing four superstealth cockroach-quick hard-to-pin-down melee instant-killers that also just happen to have a brain-Eagle that shoots Widow rounds three or four times a wave and calling that 'balanced'.

Because no matter how much people like you mock everyone else for not being leet enough to hack it against Phantoms like you and your bros can, the above situation will never be called 'balanced'.

I don't disagree that some internal balance could really help Cerberus, but really, Phantoms are easy to kill unless they come in bunches.  Sorry, but I'm thinking maybe you should start playing an easier difficulty if they feel like "Superman with a sword" to you.

[blaidfiste]

No way. Cerberus would be a cakewalk otherwise.

[JaimasOfRaxis]

SeeNoEvilHearNoEvil wrote...
Hm... this world you'd like to live in is also my world and obviously most others as well. Maybe you are having bad luck with your squads, or have a mental block when it comes to Phantoms?

What do you think about Banshees? Too strong? Too weak? What will it be?

It might be the difficulty level as well. Bronze and gold are quite a different experience. I'm not meaning to attack you, just trying to get some "closure".

I have no issues with Banshees beyond Vaccuum Hands being kinda dopey and silly. At least I can run from a Banshee, or hit it with a biotic power or grenade without worrying about it deciding "No, I'm going to render that and everything else moot for several seconds, whilst dodging and throwing out more DPS than the rest of my faction combined, Kthx." At least I can biotic explosion a Banshee. At least I can throw an Inferno Grenade at a Banshee when its barrier is down with confidence that - yes, it will have at least something resembling effectiveness.

I'd rather face 4 Banshees than 3 Phantoms.

I've killed more Phantoms than I'd care to count, and I've done gold hundreds of times - go look at my Manifest, for god's sake.

However, after doing a number of test builds, I can say that the number of viable builds against them are small, and they get ever more dangerous on smaller maps. That Invulnerable shield is the single most enfuriating feature of the Phantom for me, bar none.

[Fox-snipe]

DragoGoldenwing wrote...

The number of classes capable of using weapons to any effect against a shielded Phantom that's unloading mind-bullets into them with Widow damage at Predator fire rate =/= the number of classes capable of taking a weapon along.

I am complaining specifically about casters having problems dealing with them.  If you spec for power damage - which you have to in order to make a dent in most things in Gold - your weapon damage becomes...  Suboptimal.  Especially since casters are forced by the playerbase to carry light weapons (Usually SMGs with ammo effects,) or they risk getting kicked out of lobbies.
Unloading a Predator into a Phantom's head that is blowing yours off with her hand-cannon with any class best described as 'squishy' or 'egglike' is a recipe for disaster.  You'll die long before she suffers any marked damage.

Caster classes can quite easily take the more powerful Pistols like a Carnifex or Palladin without too much of a cooldown hit.  I've seen dozens of Adepts use one and deal with a Phantom that was "invincible".

You can say 'Well no really good player needs that crutch,' but you're talking about pubs.  If they were really good they wouldn't be using public matches and trusting to the game gods to deliver them unto a group that isn't bad.

I'm sorry, but what egotistical nonesense is this?  If a player is as good as you seem to be implying they should quite easily be able to deal with public matches.

(I realize this next statement is going to make me sound like a jerk but oh well....)
I'm very sorry you feel challenged and unable to deal with a single enemy from the easiest faction in the game.  I suggest either adjusting your tactics, sticking with a partner, or as I said running away and asking another player helps you out.  Or since you seem to think "good player[s]" should not be playing public matches, find a group of friends who will run to your aid whenever your character cries out "Phantom!"

I still have yet to see a single Phantom use her shield while moving/firing.  Sounds like lag or any of the other assorted issues where weapons & powers deal zero damage (most noticeable at the start of Waves to me).

Modifié par Fox-snipe, 26 juin 2012 - 02:06 .

[Cyonan]

JaimasOfRaxis wrote...
I have no issues with Banshees beyond Vaccuum Hands being kinda dopey and silly. At least I can run from a Banshee, or hit it with a biotic power or grenade without worrying about it deciding "No, I'm going to render that and everything else moot for several seconds, whilst dodging and throwing out more DPS than the rest of my faction combined, Kthx." At least I can biotic explosion a Banshee. At least I can throw an Inferno Grenade at a Banshee when its barrier is down with confidence that - yes, it will have at least something resembling effectiveness.

I'd rather face 4 Banshees than 3 Phantoms.

I've killed more Phantoms than I'd care to count, and I've done gold hundreds of times - go look at my Manifest, for god's sake.

However, after doing a number of test builds, I can say that the number of viable builds against them are small, and they get ever more dangerous on smaller maps. That Invulnerable shield is the single most enfuriating feature of the Phantom for me, bar none.

Just shoot them when they do that. Even if you're on a caster, just shoot them to drop their shields and they'll immediately go defensive mode(unless you have them cornered) and you can finish them off easily. The only time Phantoms are dangerous are if you run into a pack of them, or you aren't watching your flank.

Also, Banshees have the immunity shield(at least for biotics) too. They're just easier because they're so incredibly easy to kite due to them not doing their space magic attack nearly as often as the Phantom does her mind bullet barrage.

[DragoGoldenwing]

Atheosis wrote...

DragoGoldenwing wrote...

Atheosis wrote...

People whining about the only remotely challenging enemy in the easiest faction tickle me.

People whining about people whining about the most challenging boss unit in the game to deal with who is in such a state specifically because the devs can't be arsed to address balance issues with the entire faction and instead elected to give them Superman with a sword to 'balance' their overall combat ability  tickle me.

There's a phrase.  You can't stiffen a bucket of spit with a handful of buckshot.  But that's just what Bioware tried to do with the Phantom - they threw a few stiff handfuls of buckshot into the bucket of spit that is every other Cerb unit and called that enough.

It's not.  Nerf the Phantom, buff the other units and present a more even challenge instead of throwing four superstealth cockroach-quick hard-to-pin-down melee instant-killers that also just happen to have a brain-Eagle that shoots Widow rounds three or four times a wave and calling that 'balanced'.

Because no matter how much people like you mock everyone else for not being leet enough to hack it against Phantoms like you and your bros can, the above situation will never be called 'balanced'.

I don't disagree that some internal balance could really help Cerberus, but really, Phantoms are easy to kill unless they come in bunches.  Sorry, but I'm thinking maybe you should start playing an easier difficulty if they feel like "Superman with a sword" to you.

Oh look, the favored refuge of the elitist.  "You have a problem with the game?  Go back to a lower difficulty."
I don't play Gold.  Silver is about right for me - just enough challenge without the facerolling antics of Gold.  I do however watch my nephews play Gold and talk with them a lot about what they're doing and why as they play.  And every single time I have seen them wipe on Cerberus it was because of a Phantom humiliation conga.  I have talked in-depth with them about why.  And everything I have seen and heard tells me the same thing: The Phantoms are Superman with a sword, and the rest of Cerberus is nameless mooks that faint if you breathe on them hard, only dangerous when the Phantoms catch you out of cover and shield-strip you with mind bullets for the Centurions to finish off.

Phantoms are easily to kill unless they come in bunches.  Except they come in bunches on Gold.  They're easy to kill if you have Stasis on the team.  Not every team has it and not every team should be forced to carry it 'just in case'.  They're easy to kill if you have a Falcon around.  Not every team has it and not every team should be forced to carry it 'just in case'.  The list of ways to make Phantoms 'easy to kill' is small - but for the average pub if you don't have those methods incorporated, you end up pushing up daisies because Phantoms are overpowered.

[JaimasOfRaxis]

I don't disagree that some internal balance could really help Cerberus,
but really, Phantoms are easy to kill unless they come in bunches.
 Sorry, but I'm thinking maybe you should start playing an easier
difficulty if they feel like "Superman with a sword" to you.

What the hell game are you playing?

The Phantom already has:
* Does more DPS than anything but the turret as far as Cerberus is concerned
* Accuracy rivalling a Nemesis
* Has exceptional dodge ability
* Instantaneous recovery if launched/thrown
* Instant kills
* Hugely damaging melee attack
* Cloaking
* Spawns infinitely on objective waves on Gold in groups of 3+
* A Shield that renders them invulnerable to all tech/biotic powers but Stasis (Including Grenades)

I bring up the last issue, specifically, and how it's kind of a dopey issue for many classes.

I get a litany of responses describing how I am a bad player because I dared mention that it's a problem. Only on BSN does this response make anything remotely resembling sense. Yes, let's ignore my high N7 rank, fact that I've solo'd Gold once with a Geth Engineer and my Manifest. Let's go right to ad hominem attacks. Surely, that will improve Cerberus' internal balance. Excelsior!

Modifié par JaimasOfRaxis, 26 juin 2012 - 02:20 .

[Silvershroud]

Cyonan wrote...

Just shoot them when they do that. Even if you're on a caster, just shoot them to drop their shields and they'll immediately go defensive mode(unless you have them cornered) and you can finish them off easily. The only time Phantoms are dangerous are if you run into a pack of them, or you aren't watching your flank.

How exactly do you "just shoot them" effectively when they have faster and stronger guns than you, and dodge most of your shots in the 2 seconds it takes them to gun down a caster class?