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How to have an almost ethically okay Destroy ending


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#76
Iakus

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SnakeStrike8 wrote...

Okay; who said EDI dies on the Destroy ending? All we know is that the space magic destroys 'synthetics'. I choose to believe that this means it destroys synthetic bodies, which means that EDI is fine; Eva Core's body is dust, but EDI's programs still exist primarily in the Normandy. It's not going to be especially hurt, is it?
Same goes for the geth; the destruction of the geth bodies isn't going to off the entire race. They still have millions of programs installed in hardware that's not their bodies. They'll be fine, and so will their race.
Destroy really is the best, 'good' option, mates. Accept no substitutes!


twitter.com/JessicaMerizan/status/216600049491251200

Bioware really wants your Shep to commit suicide

Modifié par iakus, 26 juin 2012 - 02:06 .


#77
Ryzaki

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Taboo-XX wrote...

A Paragon does not enslave beings either. You dismiss your logic in the first paragraph in the third. Are you willing to enslave that consciousness, one that is said to be long dead? It is absurd to believe that Shepard will simply take
Control to fly the Reapers into the sun.

Synthesis is above and beyond an overstepping of bounds. You have zero right to enact that change on ALL beings.

I am left with one option, one I detest, but the alternative is extinction for ALL life, not just the Geth and EDI. They do not take precedence over everyone else. It doesn't matter if they are Synthetic or not, all life is equal, as Bioware has so bludgeoned me over the head with. To ensure the safety of all life, some must be taken. That's a monstrous thing to say but I have no choice.

He presents multiple fallacies, whether Bioware intended this doesn't matter because that's what it is. This is an interpretation, no different from yours. I see an appeal to authority and an appeal to probability, as do many others on this forum.


Paragons mindrape the heretics into not serving the Reapers. I don't think they'd have a problem with slavery if it was for the "right" reasons. Control is very paragon. It does the least amount of damage while saving the most life and it still gets rid of the Reapers.

Synthesis is the neutral choice where you don't really do anything interesting. (Yeah I have only negative things to say about Synthesis.)

Renegade is the "I'm ending this screw the splash damage." route.

So yeah Control is very Paragon and Destroy is very Renegade.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 26 juin 2012 - 02:07 .


#78
SlyTF1

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There is no genocide. The Geth aren't alive. They have about just as much of a soul as my laptop does. And I hate Batarians anyway, so I was glad the Arrival DLC lets you wipe them out (Even though I never got the DLC...).

#79
Iakus

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SlyTF1 wrote...

There is no genocide. The Geth aren't alive. They have about just as much of a soul as my laptop does. And I hate Batarians anyway, so I was glad the Arrival DLC lets you wipe them out (Even though I never got the DLC...).


So, this unit doesn't have a soul?  :P

#80
memorysquid

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iakus wrote...

ninjaman001 wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

On the plus side, maybe Bioware is completely wrong about synthetic life, that we can coexist just fine, and this game will just one day be seen as "super racist"...


This is what still makes me angry about the logic behind this, synthetics and organics not being able to coexist. That's life, even organics can't coexist without at some point fighting each other, what makes synthetics any different if they are also life forms? Why does it have to be just organics or just synthetics, any form of life is going to have conflict, that fact is shown through the conflict between the Geth and the heretics. They just royally ****ed up in their writing. Conflict is a fact of life.


And the Destroy ending, which flat out rejects the Catalyst's assertions, is the one that wipes out synthetic life.

This ending was clearly not well thought out


What the game asserts and may be true or false given the writers' intentions, is that synthetics are so different and respond to different cues that conflicts with them are different and result in total war.  EDI points out her heuristics are different than the Geth and allow her to form personal attachments the Geth can't; who knows how they change with the reaper code? 

The examples you get in game are the Citadel AI deciding for no certain reason that it will be persecuted so it frames its creator and tries to build a ship to join the Geth and wipe out organics.  The Geth decide to worship the Reapers and prosecute a war of annihilation and the zha'til who take over their creators alter their genetic code and start a galactic war.  In game, it is actually a pretty coherent theme.

#81
SnakeStrike8

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iakus wrote...

SnakeStrike8 wrote...

Okay; who said EDI dies on the Destroy ending? All we know is that the space magic destroys 'synthetics'. I choose to believe that this means it destroys synthetic bodies, which means that EDI is fine; Eva Core's body is dust, but EDI's programs still exist primarily in the Normandy. It's not going to be especially hurt, is it?
Same goes for the geth; the destruction of the geth bodies isn't going to off the entire race. They still have millions of programs installed in hardware that's not their bodies. They'll be fine, and so will their race.
Destroy really is the best, 'good' option, mates. Accept no substitutes!


twitter.com/JessicaMerizan/status/216600049491251200

Bioware really wants your Shep to commit suicide


...Image IPB
Bah! This was the last straw, Bioware! THE LAST STRAAAAW!!!!

#82
mass perfection

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Taboo-XX wrote...

A Paragon does not enslave beings either. You dismiss your logic in the first paragraph in the third. Are you willing to enslave that consciousness, one that is said to be long dead? It is absurd to believe that Shepard will simply take
Control to fly the Reapers into the sun.

Synthesis is above and beyond an overstepping of bounds. You have zero right to enact that change on ALL beings.

I am left with one option, one I detest, but the alternative is extinction for ALL life, not just the Geth and EDI. They do not take precedence over everyone else. It doesn't matter if they are Synthetic or not, all life is equal, as Bioware has so bludgeoned me over the head with. To ensure the safety of all life, some must be taken. That's a monstrous thing to say but I have no choice.

He presents multiple fallacies, whether Bioware intended this doesn't matter because that's what it is. This is an interpretation, no different from yours. I see an appeal to authority and an appeal to probability, as do many others on this forum.

How can you worry about enslaving the Reapers?They don't have emotions and they've always been under control.I just don't really understand what's so bad about controlling the Reapers.

#83
SlyTF1

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iakus wrote...

SlyTF1 wrote...

There is no genocide. The Geth aren't alive. They have about just as much of a soul as my laptop does. And I hate Batarians anyway, so I was glad the Arrival DLC lets you wipe them out (Even though I never got the DLC...).


So, this unit doesn't have a soul?  :P


Nope. Plus I read that the star child was lying, that the Destroy option only destroys Reaper technology, because EDI can be seen coming out of the Normandy thrpugh a certain strain of events after the Destroy ending.

#84
Taboo

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Ryzaki wrote...

paragons mindrape the heretics into not serving the Reapers. I don't htink they'd have a problem with slavery if it was for the "right" reasons.


Seriously? You believe that controlling such massive beings is in any way ethical? Against their will? Such a choice affects the Galaxy for all time. There is no chance you are doing this just to save lives and then send the Reapers into a black hole. You will use them for all time.

The destruction of the Reapers is also unethical, but it is swift and final, over. Whatever happens next is up to everyone else. I do not take precedence over the freedom of all beings.

Idealism is for fools who believe that they can change the way things are.

#85
thisisme8

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Stand over the ashes of a trillion dead souls, and ask pandas if honor matters.

#86
atalair

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the geth are dead for me so only EDI will die in destroy.im sorry for EDI but the reapers need to be destroyed

#87
Taboo

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thisisme8 wrote...

Stand over the ashes of a trillion dead souls, and ask pandas if honor matters.


There are VERY few Pandas compared to other species.

They are endangered in fact.

#88
Iakus

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SlyTF1 wrote...

Nope. Plus I read that the star child was lying, that the Destroy option only destroys Reaper technology, because EDI can be seen coming out of the Normandy thrpugh a certain strain of events after the Destroy ending.


Yeah...you may want to check the tweet in that link I posted...:whistle:

#89
Ryzaki

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Taboo-XX wrote...

Seriously? You believe that controlling such massive beings is in any way ethical? Against their will? Such a choice affects the Galaxy for all time. There is no chance you are doing this just to save lives and then send the Reapers into a black hole. You will use them for all time.

The destruction of the Reapers is also unethical, but it is swift and final, over. Whatever happens next is up to everyone else. I do not take precedence over the freedom of all beings.

Idealism is for fools who believe that they can change the way things are.


Again I point you to paragons mindraping the heretics. The alternative (and renegade solution) was to destroy them...hmmm that sounds familiar. :whistle:

Saying it's not a paragon action is disingenous. Paragons aren't just about morality. A paragon will bend morality quick and in a hurry if it saves lives.

And yes actually I think it's very ethical. Far more so than Destroy and Synthesis.

Freedom? Please don't try to force whatever ideals you have on my Shep. My Shep's pick Destroy but if they did pick Control it wouldn't be out of power hunger or to force people to follow their wills. Get over yourself.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 26 juin 2012 - 02:15 .


#90
SlyTF1

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iakus wrote...

SlyTF1 wrote...

Nope. Plus I read that the star child was lying, that the Destroy option only destroys Reaper technology, because EDI can be seen coming out of the Normandy thrpugh a certain strain of events after the Destroy ending.


Yeah...you may want to check the tweet in that link I posted...:whistle:


Damn...oh well, like I said; they're just machines. Come to think of it so is organic life. We simply do what we're programmed to do without thinking outside of that container. It's all bull. This is why I chose the ending with the low EMS. To destroy all life in the galaxy.

#91
Taboo

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Ryzaki wrote...

Again I point you to paragons mindraping the heretics. The alternative was to destroy them...hmmm that sounds familiar. :whistle:

Saying it's not a paragon action is disingenous. Paragons aren't just about morality.

And yes actually I think it's very ethical. Far more so than Destroy and Synthesis.

Freedom? Please don't try to force whatever ideals you have on my Shep. My Shep's pick Destroy but if they did pick Control it wouldn't be out of power hunger or to force people to follow their wills. Get over yourself.


I will not force a being to live a lie.

Freedom? The only thing that matters about being alive is being free. Free from your control.

Alive =/= Free

None of the choices are Paragon, nor are they Renegade.

#92
Ryzaki

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Taboo-XX wrote...

I will not force a being to live a lie.

Freedom? The only thing that matters about being alive is being free. Free from your control.

Alive =/= Free

None of the choices are Paragon, nor are they Renegade.


Good for you. You're not Paragon Shepard. He/she would.

In your opinion. The geth differ. (They show this when they chose to ally with the Reapers rather than die fighting the Quarians). Others differ as well.

*shakes head* you keep claiming that. Doesn't make it anymore true.

Again I point to the heretic choice. It's pretty much Control/Destroy without the backlash of another race getting involved. There was a clear renegade/paragon line there. You not liking it doesn't change that. Control is paragon, Destroy is renegade like it or not. I don't see the obsession with having Shep being one morality anyway. Pure Paragon or Pure Renegade Sheps are boring and insane.

And no alive =/= free who was ever saying such?

Modifié par Ryzaki, 26 juin 2012 - 02:20 .


#93
Iakus

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[quote]memorysquid wrote...

And the Destroy ending, which flat out rejects the Catalyst's assertions, is the one that wipes out synthetic life.

This ending was clearly not well thought out

[/quote]

What the game asserts and may be true or false given the writers' intentions, is that synthetics are so different and respond to different cues that conflicts with them are different and result in total war.  EDI points out her heuristics are different than the Geth and allow her to form personal attachments the Geth can't; who knows how they change with the reaper code? 

The examples you get in game are the Citadel AI deciding for no certain reason that it will be persecuted so it frames its creator and tries to build a ship to join the Geth and wipe out organics.  The Geth decide to worship the Reapers and prosecute a war of annihilation and the zha'til who take over their creators alter their genetic code and start a galactic war.  In game, it is actually a pretty coherent theme.[/quote]

A thousand years ago the krogan waged an expansionistic galactic war on several different organic races and were only stopped when the genophage drastically reduced their birthrates to one in a thousand.

The batarians regularly raid other species' colonies, enslave whoever they can capture and treat them worse than animals.

Clearly organics cannot coexist with other organics peacefully.  Eventually they will wipe each other out  B)

in comparison, the Heretic geth were only about 5% of the geth population, the rest simply wanted to stay away from organics

#94
Taboo

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Ryzaki wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

I will not force a being to live a lie.

Freedom? The only thing that matters about being alive is being free. Free from your control.

Alive =/= Free

None of the choices are Paragon, nor are they Renegade.


Good for you. You're not Paragon Shepard. He/she would.

In your opinion. The geth differ.

*shakes head* you keep deluding yourself then.

Again I point to the heretic choice. It's pretty much Control/Destroy without the backlash of another race getting involved. There was a clear renegade/paragon line there. You not liking it doesn't change that. Control is paragon, Destroy is renegade like it or not.

And no alive =/= free who was ever saying such?


Stop promoting fallacies.

So enslaving a race of being is Paragon? That is NOT the same as rewriting the Geth. Those Geth are free to rejoin the collective. Shepard has ZERO control over them after that happens.

You Control the Reapers for ALL time. It is not the same.

The word is "Control", not rewrite.

#95
Ryzaki

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Taboo-XX wrote...
Stop promoting fallacies.

So enslaving a race of being is Paragon? That is NOT the same as rewriting the Geth. Those Geth are free to rejoin the collective. Shepard has ZERO control over them after that happens.

You Control the Reapers for ALL time. It is not the same.

The word is "Control", not rewrite.


SHEP BRAINWASHES THE HERETICS. BRAINWASHES. There in all caps so you can get that through your skull. They are not "free" they are modified so they think it's their choice. Protip: It's not. You change them so they're like the rest of the geth they're no longer themselves. Shep destroys them and puts something he prefers in their place. IT'S NOT THEM ANYMORE. Unless you believe that Phantom Jack was free to join Cerberus and be a Phantom after being indoctrinated and experimented on. If not then no that doesn't work for the Geth either. Hell I'd rather be dead than brainwashed personally.

And no you don't even know that. For all you know Control could simply be modifying the Reapers core behaviors. It doesn't tell you how much control Shep has over them. He clearly has enough to stop them from reaping but nothing says he can use them like marionettes. (nothing says he can't either but the Reapers don't even seem to realize they're doing the Catalysts bidding so clearly the Catalyst can influence them without using them like dolls.)

Then of course brings the question do the Reapers even have self will to begin with. Or do they simply work off the Catalyts commands. If they do controlling them becomes no different than using a tool.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 26 juin 2012 - 02:30 .


#96
Taboo

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You're disregarding my point.

CONTROL is the issue. Pay attention. You assume Control of them to do YOUR bidding. That's why it's associated with the Illusive Man. Regardless of how you use them, you are still controlling the actions of beings by force.

I do not rewrite the Geth for this reason, and I play as a Paragon.

You are not "saving" the Reapers by controlling them.

#97
Ryzaki

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Taboo-XX wrote...

You're disregarding my point.

CONTROL is the issue. Pay attention. You assume Control of them to do YOUR bidding. That's why it's associated with the Illusive Man. Regardless of how you use them, you are still controlling the actions of beings by force.

I do not rewrite the Geth for this reason, and I play as a Paragon.

You are not "saving" the Reapers by controlling them.


No my issue is you claiming control isn't a valid paragon option. It is. Just like brainwashing the heretics was. The Illusive Man doesn't make the choice a renegade one. Just means he was the one constantly pushing for it. (Just like Anderson was constantly pushing Destroy. That doesn't make the decision paragon just because Anderson's mostly a Paragon). Hackett's a renegade he pushes for Destroy as well.

FYI control of beings via force to do good is still a paragon
option. For someone screaming pay attention maybe you should more of it
in game. Paragon's about risky decisions, leaps of faith and lower casualities. Renegade's making sure the job's done no matter the cost.

Good for you. Doesn't stop it from being considered by the game to be the paragon decision.

Who said I was saving the Reapers? The Reapers are giant husks that exist only to slaughter and make more of them the species they come from are DEAD. The best thing for them is a mercy kill. Control saves the Geth, EDI and the technology. The Reapers can't be saved. It's too late for them. And that's assuming they're even alive and not just giant tools.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 26 juin 2012 - 02:37 .


#98
Taboo

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I never said ANY of the choices are Paragon OR Renegade. That's the point of the endings.

The Geth are dead in my playthrough, that is a result of my actions in ME2.

I bear the problem of killing EDI, but she does not take precedence over everyone else.

I choose Destroy only because it allows people to move ahead with their lives without the possibility for interference. No more Reapers, no more omnipotent Shepard AI.

#99
Ryzaki

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Taboo-XX wrote...

I never said ANY of the choices are Paragon OR Renegade. That's the point of the endings.

The Geth are dead in my playthrough, that is a result of my actions in ME2.

I bear the problem of killing EDI, but she does not take precedence over everyone else.

I choose Destroy only because it allows people to move ahead with their lives without the possibility for interference. No more Reapers, no more omnipotent Shepard AI.


And we're not going to agree on that. And I'm tired already of arguing it.

Quarians are dead in mine. Results of their actions in ME3.

Don't care about EDI. Would kill her myself given the chance.

I only choose Destroy because it kills the Reapers full stop. If I wasn't worried about indoctrination I'd pick Control. As it is I pick Destroy. The Geth are unforunate but well...Legion's already dead so whateves.

#100
memorysquid

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Taboo-XX wrote...

A Paragon does not enslave beings either. You dismiss your logic in the first paragraph in the third. Are you willing to enslave that consciousness, one that is said to be long dead? It is absurd to believe that Shepard will simply take
Control to fly the Reapers into the sun.

Synthesis is above and beyond an overstepping of bounds. You have zero right to enact that change on ALL beings.

I am left with one option, one I detest, but the alternative is extinction for ALL life, not just the Geth and EDI. They do not take precedence over everyone else. It doesn't matter if they are Synthetic or not, all life is equal, as Bioware has so bludgeoned me over the head with. To ensure the safety of all life, some must be taken. That's a monstrous thing to say but I have no choice.

He presents multiple fallacies, whether Bioware intended this doesn't matter because that's what it is. This is an interpretation, no different from yours. I see an appeal to authority and an appeal to probability, as do many others on this forum.


Paragons do enslave and even condone sterilizing beings, apparently.  Rewriting the Geth Heretics is presented as a Paragon choice, better than destroying them, and Shepard appears okay with the first genophage and even willing to think twice about the second.  He says the genophage update "borders" on a war crime meaning even he isn't certain it was a bad idea.

If the only choice is whatever control does, you falsely present it as necessarily slavery when it could be a simple mental prohibition against fighting and storing organics, and Reaper genocide, of course control is the less morally problematic.  Let's not be silly.  In fact, even actual slavery is less problematic than genocide.  Actual slavery, e.g. imprisonment, allows for the possibility of change, redemption.  If you're dead, that's it.

And control is still not the only choice.  You keep carping about synthesis, but while they don't specify, you have in game evidence that synthesis entails immortality, in the testimony of Javik on immortality being a defining characteristic of synthetics, as well as the Catalyst referring to it as the "final" step in evolution implying no further evolution will even possibly occur, a possible consequence of immortality.

Would I make everyone immortal to avoid genocide or the war resuming?  Obviously.  Maybe they didn't intend that stark a presumption for green; I'll know sometime tomorrow.

What I do know is that you have no true right to any of the choices. 

No one can grant you authority over, in destroy, all synthetics or, in control, all Reapers, as pawns of the Catalyst but apparently self-willed, AND to risk the future safety of the galaxy or, in synthesis, the self-determination of the volitonal galaxy. 

The whole point is this is an emergency situation and you must make a really tough choice.  I find genocide morally unacceptable, unless the alternatives are as bad or worse.  I don't find forcing evolution to be as bad as forcing extinction; I don't even find risking destruction and continuing mental domination to be as bad as genocide. 

If you do, well then a more detailed discussion than is reasonable here would be warranted. 

The point is they don't give you even a fraction of the information necessary to make an informed decision in this kind of unique case, so disagreements will flower for eternity or unless the EC is incredibly astute.