216 réponses à ce sujet

[Direwolf0294]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I think my biggest problem was the "flirt" icon, if they're gonna get rid of any of them then it should be that one lol.

I've been curious about this because many use it as an example of the "dumbing down" of the wheel.

Would it be less "dumbing down" if we had more instances such as Avelline, whom the player could flirt with but wouldn't respond to?

I think that would just lead to players becoming angry. I don't really see how it's "dumbing down" in the first place though. I mean, it's not like it wasn't obvious which conversation options were the flirts in DA:O.

I hope the conversation icons stay but that they're changed slightly so it's less like, this is the good option, this is the evil option etc. Like if they were all a neutral tone instead of being blue or red or what ever. Also maybe positioning them differently each conversation so you don't just have all the good options on the top of the wheel and all the evil options on the bottom.

[Allan Schumacher]

Well, the idea is more that "the heart option means that the player is attempting to flirt for romantic reasons." Whether or not the NPC reciprocates is up to the NPC (and the writers...)

[Direwolf0294]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Well, the idea is more that "the heart option means that the player is attempting to flirt for romantic reasons." Whether or not the NPC reciprocates is up to the NPC (and the writers...)

Fair enough, but I still think it's something that would annoy people. Maybe I'm thinking about it the wrong way though. You used Aveline as an example so I've been thinking, you have the option to flirt with a companion but you can never become romantic with them, but if it was more, you can flirt with them and they may not reciprocate right away but eventually come around and you're able to start a relationship with that character then it would probably be okay, though you'd still run the risk of people missing out on a romance because they assumed that since the NPC didn't respond at the start that they were unromanceable.

Whatever you decide to do I think with this sort of thing you're going to have to make it really clear how certain game mechanics work at the start of the game, otherwise you'll end up with another repeat of the whole rivalry thing from DA2 where people didn't really understand it and assumed it was similar to the dislike bar in DA:O.

[LolaLei]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I think my biggest problem was the "flirt" icon, if they're gonna get rid of any of them then it should be that one lol.

I've been curious about this because many use it as an example of the "dumbing down" of the wheel.

Would it be less "dumbing down" if we had more instances such as Avelline, whom the player could flirt with but wouldn't respond to?

I don't feel that it's dumbing anything down, I just like trying to guess what dialogue option will have the best effect on each individual companion in general, specifically the flirt options lol.

I think maybe part of the problem with the icons is they're so... shiny and modern in comparison to the Dragon Age environment, so it kinda looks a little disjointed. Maybe if the dialogue wheel and icons were made to look a bit old and rustic then it wouldn't feel quite so out of place, but that's just for asthetic reasons rather than functionality lol.

Modifié par LolaLei, 28 juin 2012 - 04:11 .

[Allan Schumacher]

I don't feel that it's dumbing anything down, I just like trying to guess what dialogue option will have the best effect on each individual companion in general, specifically the flirt options lol.

I guess what I was more saying is: "What if the heart icon was literally just an attempt to flirt?" Or is there a part of you that enjoys guessing which line is the actual flirt line?

[LolaLei]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I don't feel that it's dumbing anything down, I just like trying to guess what dialogue option will have the best effect on each individual companion in general, specifically the flirt options lol.

I guess what I was more saying is: "What if the heart icon was literally just an attempt to flirt?" Or is there a part of you that enjoys guessing which line is the actual flirt line?

I like trying to guess, it tickles me when I get it wrong and end up with a reply that I wasn't expecting lol. Although, I quite like the concept that you can flirt with a companion, but it doesn't mean that they'll actually be interested in your character. I really liked that Aveline was completely oblivious to Hawke's affections and had never even considered him/her as a potential love interest, it made a nice change to everyone wanting to shag the protagonist.

Modifié par LolaLei, 28 juin 2012 - 04:17 .

[LolaLei]

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Well, the idea is more that "the heart option means that the player is attempting to flirt for romantic reasons." Whether or not the NPC reciprocates is up to the NPC (and the writers...)

The heart option is about romancing in general...
That's obvious and I do not have a problem with that at all. Guess what you are referring to is Avenline who is not romancable in the first place (writers I guess ) but it would be nice if there would be an indication that romances can/will not happen if other choices are made in the game.

Fenris as an example here. If you romanced Isabella (iow slept with her) Fenris is off limits but a response of him 'warning you' if you should romance (choose heart option in the first playthrough) another person could get you on your toes so to speak. Because I usually do several playthroughs I got to romance al the characters I wanted. As I understand it from the forum there are people who play a game only once or twice. If that is so there should be some kind of 'warning sign/talk/hint that gives an indication to the player if s/he does something that screws things up for the intended LI and makes 'a complete romance' impossible.

I like not knowing, it increases the replayability... well, it does for me anyway lol.

[mesmerizedish]

Not knowing is stupid. Not knowing how the NPC will react is great! But I should be in control of my character. If I want my character to flirt, then the GAME needs to know that my character is trying to flirt, and I need to know the game knows.

If my character behaves in a manner that I can't anticipate, then that is a failure of the interface.

Modifié par ishmaeltheforsaken, 28 juin 2012 - 04:32 .

[LolaLei]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Not knowing is stupid. Not knowing how the NPC will react is great! But I should be in control of my character. If I want my character to flirt, then the GAME needs to know that my character is trying to flirt, and I need to know the game knows.

If my character behaves in a manner that I can't anticipate, then that is a failure of the interface.

But you'd know if you were flirting by the dialogue/summerised dialogue rather than the icon making it obvious. But I agree, not knowing the NPC's reaction is part of the fun.

[wsandista]

Yes please remove them. Replace them and the wheel with a system like in DE:HR or TW2, if a voiced PC will be done please.

[Cultist]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I don't feel that it's dumbing anything down, I just like trying to guess what dialogue option will have the best effect on each individual companion in general, specifically the flirt options lol.

I guess what I was more saying is: "What if the heart icon was literally just an attempt to flirt?" Or is there a part of you that enjoys guessing which line is the actual flirt line?

There's a bigger problem here. Almost eveyone took heart icon as a romance initiator. And in any further
dialogue with heart icon it was a no-brainer what option to choose. Aveline was the only instance where heart icon would not lead to romance, and Zevran maybe. So players would not think or read the lines\\paraphrases - they already knew that choosing heart icon is the only right ontion as it will progress romance one step further
Now compare it with Origins or Baldurs Gate 2 - you have to read carefully and understand what lines to choose. You have to understand each character, because some liked it rough, some preferred direct approach, some delicate, and so on. You have to understand and predict how each character will react to your lines.
Viconia would not be one of the most interesting and captivating love interests in RPGs if along her long romance there would be indicators to hint players - "that anwser will progress romance". And let me remind you that her romance lasted for two games and each dialogue has 5-7 options on each step. And each time you should think what should you answer to another strange line of hers, born out of alien drow mind.
Dragon Age 2 - Gain aopproval by Charming]Dimplomatic=>heart=>heart=>heart. the end. taht contributed to the disappointment with DA2 characters as game prevented understanding the characters and forced player to chose from 3 options, with one "right", one "wrong" and one neutral, which in most cases were "wrong" as well.

[LolaLei]

Cultist, your sig just blew my mind!

[WotanAnubis]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I don't feel that it's dumbing anything down, I just like trying to guess what dialogue option will have the best effect on each individual companion in general, specifically the flirt options lol.

I guess what I was more saying is: "What if the heart icon was literally just an attempt to flirt?" Or is there a part of you that enjoys guessing which line is the actual flirt line?

If the heart icon was indeed just (attempts at) flirting/wooing, that would be great.

But as it stands, in Dragon Age 2 it's just a great big START ROMANCE NOW button. Something that should be somewhat emotional is reduced to being purely mechanical (OK, yes, technically it was purely mechanical before, but at least the games weren't as obvious about it).

It would help if there were, say, multiple flirt options NPCs would react differently to (for example, let's say you're trying to woo Isabela and one flirt option would say 'hey, how about a roll in the hay?' and the other would say 'might I be so bold as to write a poem extolling your many virtues?').

Perhaps it would also help if flirt option were there right from the start (or near the start), but NPCs might react badly to such because you're coming on too strong/they barely know you. This, at least, would obscure which particular heart icon would actually turn out to be the START ROMANCE NOW button and force the player to think about when it would be appropriate for your friendship (or rivalry, I guess) to begin blossoming into something more.

Modifié par WotanAnubis, 28 juin 2012 - 06:11 .

[Allan Schumacher]

There's a bigger problem here. Almost eveyone took heart icon as a romance initiator. And in any further dialogue with heart icon it was a no-brainer what option to choose. Aveline was the only instance where heart icon would not lead to romance, and Zevran maybe. So players would not think or read the lines\\paraphrases - they already knew that choosing heart icon is the only right ontion as it will progress romance one step further

Hmmm. I guess it might depend on the person whether or not it's actually a problem though, wouldn't it?

Viconia would not be one of the most interesting and captivating love interests in RPGs if along her long romance there would be indicators to hint players - "that anwser will progress romance". And let me remind you that her romance lasted for two games and each dialogue has 5-7 options on each step. And each time you should think what should you answer to another strange line of hers, born out of alien drow mind.

Maybe we should restrict the hearts to overt flirts, and not preclude romances from continuing simply because we didn't pick the heart option?

[wsandista]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Maybe we should restrict the hearts to overt flirts, and not preclude romances from continuing simply because we didn't pick the heart option?

If you are using icons, then yes. I would still like something like DE:HR where intent lines are used though.

[LolaLei]

WotanAnubis wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I don't feel that it's dumbing anything down, I just like trying to guess what dialogue option will have the best effect on each individual companion in general, specifically the flirt options lol.

I guess what I was more saying is: "What if the heart icon was literally just an attempt to flirt?" Or is there a part of you that enjoys guessing which line is the actual flirt line?

If the heart icon was indeed just (attempts at) flirting/wooing, that would be great.

But as it stands, in Dragon Age 2 it's just a great big START ROMANCE NOW button. Something that should be somewhat emotional is reduced to being purely mechanical (OK, yes, technically it was purely mechanical before, but at least the games weren't as obvious about it).

It would help if there were, say, multiple flirt options NPCs would react differently to (for example, let's say you're trying to woo Isabela and one flirt option would say 'hey, how about a roll in the hay?' and the other would say 'might I be so bold as to write a poem extolling your many virtues?').

Perhaps it would also help if flirt option were there right from the start (or near the start), but NPCs might react badly to such because you're coming on too strong/they barely know you. This, at least, would obscure which particular heart icon would actually turn out to be the START ROMANCE NOW button and force the player to think about when it would be appropriate for your friendship (or rivalry, I guess) to begin blossoming into something more.

I like that idea, they should hire you!

[Cultist]

Allan Schumacher wrote...
Maybe
we should restrict the hearts to overt flirts, and not preclude
romances from continuing simply because we didn't pick the heart
option?

It may work, but still it's a big spoiler. In Dagon Age 2 - no flirt\\heart option resulted in negative reaction. No companion reacted badly or was annoyed when PC acted pushy and straightforward. Should such behaviour be removed in DA3 - game may rid itself from, as WotanAnubis stated, START ROMANCE NOW problem.

Modifié par Cultist, 28 juin 2012 - 06:34 .

[Allan Schumacher]

If you are using icons, then yes. I would still like something like DE:HR where intent lines are used though.

What exactly are the "intent lines" again? I am remembering the few word response coupled with the "tooltip" that would display more of the text. Is it one of those?

It may work, but still it's a big spoiler. In Dagon Age 2 - no flirt\\heart option resulted in negative reaction. No companion reacted badly or was annoyed when PC acted pushy and straightforward. Should such behaviour be present in DA3 - game may rid itself from, as WotanAnubis stated, START ROMANCE NOW problem.

Yeah I think this sounds as reasonable as any type of feedback. I do think that the icons work best if they denote the intent of the player.

So I'm fine with showing the crossed swords if it means my player intends to attack. I don't think we should show the crossed swords if the player is trying to continue the conversation and the opponent decides enough is enough.

I guess I feel: Icons for intent, not for consequences.

[LolaLei]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I guess I feel: Icons for intent, not for consequences.

Yeah, I think that would work really well in DA3.

Modifié par LolaLei, 28 juin 2012 - 06:42 .

[Mike_Neel]

I like the hearts. They keep me from accidentally romancing anyone. Sure they can try to come on to my character but I know that as long as I don't press the button I won't have to deal with a scene later of them getting all lovey dovey on me while I'm busy saving everything and everyone. Or exploiting them for their money and other valuables. Mostly the last one. There's no room for love in the busy life of the tax collector.

[Direwolf0294]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

If you are using icons, then yes. I would still like something like DE:HR where intent lines are used though.

What exactly are the "intent lines" again? I am remembering the few word response coupled with the "tooltip" that would display more of the text. Is it one of those?

I think he's refering to the way HR presented all its dialogue. The dialogue wheel would show the tone of your response (angry, sympathetic etc) and then when you highlight one of those a little box would pop up letting you know what Adam was going to say.

Here's a screenshot of it: http://www.mackneyme..._deus_ex3_6.jpg

I have to say I did rather enjoy HR's conversations so I wouldn't mind if conversations in DA3 were presented in the same manner. It could even make romances more interesting because instead of just picking a flirt option to advance the romance you'd actually have to be nice to the character and stuff. Pick a sympathetic or kind response when they're feeling down, pick a happy response if they tell a joke etc.

[wsandista]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

If you are using icons, then yes. I would still like something like DE:HR where intent lines are used though.

What exactly are the "intent lines" again? I am remembering the few word response coupled with the "tooltip" that would display more of the text. Is it one of those?

It was a typo. Intent words is what I meant.

Here is an example.

[Cultist]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

If you are using icons, then yes. I would still like something like DE:HR where intent lines are used though.

What exactly are the "intent lines" again? I am remembering the few word response coupled with the "tooltip" that would display more of the text. Is it one of those?

Deus Ex: HR used Intent as a 'hub' for various responces. For example a dialogue may include, as far as i remember: Appealing, Pinpoint, Confront, Extrapolate, Absolve etc. Each of this options include several responces that fill within that Intent and that you can choose from. That expands simple "dialogue wheel" many times over as instead of "yes", "no" and "investigate" you can, at first, choose how would you react towards certain NPC and then you can decide how exactly you will act within that "hub". For example, when talking with an apostate you can tell him that killing templars is wrong and is not the answer, or that killing templars openly is wrong. Two completely different answers yet both are within same FriendlyHelpng]Appealing\\name it what you want "hub".
This is the "Hub"


And here is the options within the "hub"

Modifié par Cultist, 28 juin 2012 - 07:21 .

[Allan Schumacher]

Ah yeah okay, you were referring to the words, combined with the full text.  I think I relied mostly on just the intent words myself because I prefer to not read the spoken line prior to hearing it.

But Yeah I typically have no issue with those and both those games you reference have interesting conversations.

Though IIRC the DEHR only happen for the "conversation battles" (which I still maintain are really well done).

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 28 juin 2012 - 07:17 .