216 réponses à ce sujet

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

I believe this idea has already been shot down (UI issues, too much clutter, etc), but I copy and paste it almost every chance I get so meh:





I'd also be supportive of Deus Ex: Human Revolution's full text type of dialog options.

I think one thing that BioWare could take from Alpha Protocol (if not the dialog system or attention to overarching C&C) is how they handle letters/emails.

[Fast Jimmy]

^

Crusty, I've seen this posted on the forums from time to time. Where did this originate from? Did Sylvius draft this up?

[Dutchess]

I think the idea of DE:HR with the intent words and the first line the character is going to say would work really well for DA.

[ScotGaymer]

I like that idea Crusty!

[wsandista]

I like Crusty's idea, it sounds like a great alternative to the dialogue wheel.

[AkiKishi]

wsandista wrote...

I like Crusty's idea, it sounds like a great alternative to the dialogue wheel.

It IS the dialogue wheel. But it is an alternative to paraphrasing.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 28 juin 2012 - 01:48 .

[AmstradHero]

Sure it's great (and again, it's more like Alpha Protocol), but it has other problems. The two biggest ones that come to mind are:
1) Eight choices. That will lead to a combinatorial snowball in no time at all. (Personally, I prefer delivering more than three choices per dialogue option in my mods, but I can assure you that leads to a LOT of writing and a lot of work overall. Eight choices, especially *meaningful* choices, would be an obscene amount of work).
2) Screen real estate. That's going to take up a lot of room. This might seem like a trivial thing, but when you take in account different systems, screen sizes, resolutions and the like, it becomes important.

Modifié par AmstradHero, 28 juin 2012 - 01:53 .

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

Doesn't need to be 8 options, the idea was that it used a configuration that allowed for up to 8. Unless there's some sort of need of visual symmetry, then having 3-5 options for most dialog prompts would be reasonable. If there was need for symmetry, a full text list suffices. The wheel is merely UI.

The screen real estate issue was I believe the one that David Gaider stated as a reason that it wouldn't work, so I'm not exactly suggesting a 1-1 implementation.

Still, I think the idea has merit.

By that, I mean dialog options that amount to a thought process. Ultimately, the reason why paraphrasing doesn't work for people is because they feel like there's a level of ambiguity in what they're character's going to say. I believe this accomplishes the clarity necessary, without suffering the same problems that full text does (repetition issues).

Modifié par CrustyBot, 28 juin 2012 - 02:07 .

[AkiKishi]

CrustyBot wrote...

Doesn't need to be 8 options, the idea was that it used a configuration that allowed for up to 8. Unless there's some sort of need of visual symmetry, then having 3-5 options for most dialog prompts would be reasonable. If there was need for symmetry, a full text list suffices. The wheel is merely UI.

The screen real estate issue was I believe the one that David Gaider stated as a reason that it wouldn't work, so I'm not exactly suggesting a 1-1 implementation.

Still, I think the idea has merit.

By that, I mean dialog options that amount to a thought process. Ultimately, the reason why paraphrasing doesn't work for people is because they feel like there's a level of ambiguity in what they're character's going to say. I believe this accomplishes the clarity necessarily, without suffering the same problems that full text does (repetition issues).

You still have no idea what words will be spoken though which is why this stort of stuff works best when you have a defined PC and you don't have a character in your head competing with the official version.That is the core of the problems with paraphrasing and intent (in fact anything that is not a full line).

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

It depends on the range of actions/options you're given. If what you're limited to is simply different ways to express yourself (the infamous 3 ways to say yes routine), then I'd agree.

If however, your range of options is larger, then it's less of a problem as there's a larger chance that people would be actually doing what their character wants - there's a focus on actions, not words.



If you give enough variety in your options that relate to roleplaying/character system, people instinctively associate the action or skill with what is in their heads, not the specific words.

It's the same thing with skill checks, honestly - it might not be the exact wording of what you want your character to say, but they're that kinda guy/gal who uses Diplomacy/Intimidation/etc to get their way.

Though I suspect the dialog trees and interactions in BioWare games cuts a bit deeper than in Darklands.

Still, I wouldn't mind seeing a defined PC in Dragon Age 3, FWIW. Still think BioWare either needs to take a look at what constitutes as good RPG gameplay, and implement it, or ditch the genre altogether. In either case, a defined PC might help.

Modifié par CrustyBot, 28 juin 2012 - 02:55 .

[Fredward]

I really like this dialogue compass too, especially if there is a full line of text to draw context from before paraphrasing.

[Cultist]

AmstradHero wrote...

Sure it's great (and again, it's more like Alpha Protocol), but it has other problems. The two biggest ones that come to mind are:
1) Eight choices. That will lead to a combinatorial snowball in no time at all. (Personally, I prefer delivering more than three choices per dialogue option in my mods, but I can assure you that leads to a LOT of writing and a lot of work overall. Eight choices, especially *meaningful* choices, would be an obscene amount of work).

in fact 8 choices is awfully limiting and just a bit better than 3. Baldur's Gate 2 got up to 15-20. Planescape got 24 as far as I remember. Better a lot of text and good game, than 3 lines and Dragon Age 2. Also, if they managed to create RPG with a lot of text back then, why can't they do so now?

AmstradHero wrote...
2) Screen real estate. That's going to take up a lot of room. This might seem like a trivial thing, but when you take in account different systems, screen sizes, resolutions and the like, it becomes important.

It is always better to sacrifice space and made game more functional, than keep a beautiful screen where all you can do is bash one awesome button.

[Cultist]

BobSmith101 wrote...
It IS the dialogue wheel. But it is an alternative to paraphrasing.

Actually, it's still a dialogue wheel with paraphrases. just 2 more options for disalogue wheel to choose from.

[FedericoV]

CrustyBot wrote...

Still, I wouldn't mind seeing a defined PC in Dragon Age 3, FWIW. Still think BioWare either needs to take a look at what constitutes as good RPG gameplay, and implement it, or ditch the genre altogether. In either case, a defined PC might help.

Agreed. Having said that, I believe that if they were to ditch the genre, the DA setting would be useless and would not work as well. The setting is filled with classical fantasy RPG/D&Desque tropes. It's not the best setting for a pure action game focused on cinematic and visuals imho.

[EricHVela]

I would have the option to take out the hint icons (which one can do in SWTOR) as well as removing the tell-tale positioning of up=nice, down=mean, left=investigate and right=move on. I would love the option to get the 1-6 dialog options in a text summary that accurately represents the tone of the response like they had in KotOR and DA:O.

Let the people that prefer the hints have their icons and dialog wheel. I would rather play the protagonist based on dialog merits instead of being told that this response asks for more information or that response makes them hate you. There's no way to avoid the hint system in the dialog wheels as they are right now. You know full well what they will accomplish by where they are. Don't tell me that. It's a spoiler.

Let me have the option to avoid spoilers in the game.

[Chromie]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Did Sylvius draft this up?

He's been saying this forever don't insult him.

[Allan Schumacher]

Baldur's Gate 2 got up to 15-20. Planescape got 24 as far as I remember. Better a lot of text and good game, than 3 lines and Dragon Age 2. Also, if they managed to create RPG with a lot of text back then, why can't they do so now?

The only one I can think of for PST is the answer to what can change the nature of man. It was atypical (though it did tend to have a large amount of dialogue choices).

Which instances of BG2 had 15-20? It certainly wasn't the norm.

[Fast Jimmy]

I don't think the issue is the number of options, honestly. HAVING options wound being the by issue for me in DA2.

Usually, you were given three options to say how you would accept the quest or advance dialogue forward. Hawke could just as easily been saying 'Okay' in three different voices for most conversation options. That's no fun.

[Nefla]

TonberryFeye wrote...

karushna5 wrote...

No please! I don't understand why people want no flirt option. I hate being ninjamanced, and that can't happen in DA2 because of clear parameters. Get rid of the other icons but please, me and my roommate were so relieved to get the hearts. Every game where you can play out a romance a ninjamance happens because I was nice.

Welcome to real life. I know people who I would very much like to be going out with, and have felt this way for years (and said as much more than once) and it never gets anywhere. The characters you mention are no different.

In fact, these "ninja romances" are part of why Origins was great, and DA2 was not.

In Origins, a romance (or at least a sexual encounter) could occur whenever the other guy/girl was interested. Whether or not you are interested is for you to decide, but that's life. Sometimes you ask your 'true love' out on a date and they shoot you down. Sometimes someone you don't care about confesses they think you're their soulmate.

DA2 annoyed the ever-loving hell out of me because romances felt so damn forced. "I'm sorry, but you can't be romantically involved with Fenris because you didn't pick the Luvvy-Duvvy conversation option the first time it came up!" Well I'm sorry, but I didn't have much of an opinion on the guy back then and I wasn't willing to shag a stranger!

The "romance" option in the dialog wheel is just... it's just terrible. I hated how it turns romances into a sidequest; something missable that can only be done when Bioware says so. Origins? Vastly superior. Yes, it was a little prone to abuse in that you could spend an hour chatting, throw some gifts their way and then either dive straight into bed or go do a sidequest first, but the point is that most people I know scored relationships slowly over time - the odd conversation here and there, questing with the character, giving the odd gift and then allowing the bond to form organically.

My current playthrough has me romantically involved with Alistair, despite the fact I set out with the mindset of "A Dwarf would never want to sleep with an Elf or Human." I didn't plan on that happening, but it would never have happened at all if Origins insisted on putting a giant pick loveheart on screen next to the "PICK THIS TO PLAY THE ROMANCE MINIGAME" text option.

I agree with you on that front, I much preferred DA:O's style of someone becomming interested in you because you've gotten to know them and they like you and you can start a romance at any point, rather than you HAVE to pick a flirt at a certain time or it's no dice.

[King Cousland]

I agree with the OP. As Sten says, "People aren't simple". To limit our PC to just three personality types strips ways all depth and immersion, but more than anything, it's just stupendously boring. I found myself eventually skipping dialogue in DAII because the responses became so generic and repetitive due to the personality icons.

As others have mentioned, the flirt icon in particular was irksome, since we had to pick it then and there to initiate a romance instead of getting to know one another over time (though I suppose this was more to do with us being denied the ability to talk to companions whenever),

Since the wheel's here to stay, I'd much prefer that personality types and icons be removed altogether and go back to the Origins system of having indistinct personality types specific to different situations, but still have the different outcomes of DAII.

EDIT: I love Crusty's idea. Come on BioWare, surely it wouldn't be that hard to implement?

Modifié par harkness72, 28 juin 2012 - 11:28 .

[wsandista]

BobSmith101 wrote...

wsandista wrote...

I like Crusty's idea, it sounds like a great alternative to the dialogue wheel.

It IS the dialogue wheel. But it is an alternative to paraphrasing.

It looks more like an intent wheel than a dialogue wheel.

[Firky]

I used to think more dialogue choices was blanket better. Like, I would have been like, "Yeah, 8."

But, having recently attempting (and managing to neatly tie up) a tiny mod with the DA toolset, I've changed my mind. As Amstrad noted ^ 8 choices could result in an obscene amount of words, even if they all vaguelly got railroaded back to variations on the same thing.

But, I tried to make a system with mostly 5 responses (within the strictures of the Origins toolset.) It was too many. When I was playing it, it became clear that you have to stop for too long to read all the responses, and you start to forget what the other character is asking/saying to you. I found that three was actually probably about right, because you can process three responses, but still connect with the coherency of the conversation. That wheel with 8 looks great, but it also looks to me like I'd forget the question by the time I've gone around the wheel.

There are exceptions, though. Like questioning. You could easily have 6 questions stacked up to ask, one by one, without losing any coherency. Or, if an NPC was asking you something really important, that you had to stop and carefully consider, then maybe more responses would be fine, but I'd say 3 should be maximum, for general, back and forth conversation. (Me at this time last year; pre-mod, is disagreeing with present me as I type, though.)

[Dakota Strider]

Cultist wrote...
(snippage)
Remove the icons, at least make people read the lines. They are not mentally challenged imbeciles, who can't understant or figure the meaning of the phrase. make them analyze the dialogue they are in, even the primitive ones we got iin DA2.

Do not be too sure.  Its possible that is the new demographic that Bioware/EA is trying to market to.

[Firky]

^ Well, just as a point for consideration. (And, personally, I don't mind the non-voiced protag at all.) But, without the icons to indicate tone, the Bio-writers have to make very sure that every line of dialogue conveys tone to the player. It's nothing to do with how intelligent the player is, IMO, it's how skilled the writer is.

Technically, providing an icon for tone should mean that they way they write paraphrases is completely different.

[Plaintiff]

Oh please. The dialogue system in Deus Ex: HR is pretty much identical to the one used in DA2.

Icons do not "dumb things down" and without them, many of the statements would be extremely ambiguous, but don't let reality get in the way of your bias.

Telling people to 'analyse' the line is not only condescending and arrogant, but utterly retarded. I shouldn't need to 'analyse' the emotions of my own character, and analysis does not guarantee that I will get the result I wanted. In case you weren't aware, different people can analyse and come up with different outcomes from the one you or the writers intended.

If I'm about to flirt with someone, I damn well want to know. I don't want my party members getting the impression that I'm interested in them, and then getting butthurt and flipping their **** when I hook up with someone else. That was a constant problem in Origins.

Nothing is more immersion-breaking than Leliana congratulating me on bagging a hot man-elf, only to turn around and accuse me of cheating on her the very next time I go back to camp, when I've never so much as held her hand. And worse, the game doesn't even give you the opportunity to call her out for being a delusional ****. It assumes that because I used certain lines, I was trying to hook up with her. The possibility that she could somehow be mistaken is not even acknowledged. My only option is to legitimise her insanity by 'breaking up' with her in the gentlest way possible, to minimise disapproval. Lame.