216 réponses à ce sujet

[rapscallioness]

Cultist wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I don't feel that it's dumbing anything down, I just like trying to guess what dialogue option will have the best effect on each individual companion in general, specifically the flirt options lol.

I guess what I was more saying is: "What if the heart icon was literally just an attempt to flirt?" Or is there a part of you that enjoys guessing which line is the actual flirt line?

There's a bigger problem here. Almost eveyone took heart icon as a romance initiator. And in any further
dialogue with heart icon it was a no-brainer what option to choose. Aveline was the only instance where heart icon would not lead to romance, and Zevran maybe. So players would not think or read the linesparaphrases - they already knew that choosing heart icon is the only right ontion as it will progress romance one step further
Now compare it with Origins or Baldurs Gate 2 - you have to read carefully and understand what lines to choose. You have to understand each character, because some liked it rough, some preferred direct approach, some delicate, and so on. You have to understand and predict how each character will react to your lines.
Viconia would not be one of the most interesting and captivating love interests in RPGs if along her long romance there would be indicators to hint players - "that anwser will progress romance". And let me remind you that her romance lasted for two games and each dialogue has 5-7 options on each step. And each time you should think what should you answer to another strange line of hers, born out of alien drow mind.
Dragon Age 2 - Gain aopproval by Charming]Dimplomatic=>heart=>heart=>heart. the end. taht contributed to the disappointment with DA2 characters as game prevented understanding the characters and forced player to chose from 3 options, with one "right", one "wrong" and one neutral, which in most cases were "wrong" as well.

I so much agree with this. This is exactly true. Personally, I find it more interesting to have to know and understand the NPC you want to romance, and how to approach them.

I always thought the flirt icon was there because some players didn't want to accidentally romance the same sex. So, they put that in there for them.

[King Cousland]

Plaintiff wrote...
Icons do not "dumb things down" and without them, many of the statements would be extremely ambiguous, but don't let reality get in the way of your bias.
.

Bias? We have opinions, and since we have no vested interested apart from our own commercial decisions in the route BioWare takes, we're not biased at all. 

And even with the icons, statements were still ambiguous and could result in confusion and miscommunication. They're dumbed down because they limit writing for the PC (and therefore the player's chosen development of the PC themself) to just three very narrow, very generic and ultimately very boring personality types. 

Modifié par harkness72, 29 juin 2012 - 12:36 .

[Plaintiff]

harkness72 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Icons do not "dumb things down" and without them, many of the statements would be extremely ambiguous, but don't let reality get in the way of your bias.
.

Bias? We have opinions, and since we have no vested interested apart from our own commercial decisions in the route BioWare takes, we're not biased at all. 

And even with the icons, statements were still ambiguous and could result in confusion and miscommunication. They're dumbed down because they limit writing for the PC (and therefore the player's chosen development of the PC themself) to just three very narrow, very generic and ultimately very boring personality types. 

When your 'opinion' directly conflicts with reality and you refuse to acknowledge it, that's a bias.

OP is saying "We don't need icons to tell us that 'I'm going to kill you' is the violent option, herp derp derp". I was pointing out that most of the dialogue options are less obvious than that, which means his assertion is disingenuous and based in bias, not reality.

As you've pointed out, even with the icons, intent was not always clear, but that fact still supports my general view that clarification is very much needed. DA2's method was a step in the right direction, it simply did not account for everything.

I don't see how DA2 was "narrowed down" at all. Most conversations in DA:O used the exact same options: Diplomatic, Sarcastic, Aggressive, Flirt & Ask for more information. Not necessarily in that order. There was not nearly enough variation in dialogue to support the Warden having more development options. But then, the Warden does not experience any development at all, aside from what the player invents for him in the privacy of their own imaginations.

[Vormaerin]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Baldur's Gate 2 got up to 15-20. Planescape got 24 as far as I remember. Better a lot of text and good game, than 3 lines and Dragon Age 2. Also, if they managed to create RPG with a lot of text back then, why can't they do so now?

The only one I can think of for PST is the answer to what can change the nature of man. It was atypical (though it did tend to have a large amount of dialogue choices).

Which instances of BG2 had 15-20? It certainly wasn't the norm.

Most folks these days are remembering the heavily modded BG2 games that they played.   The base game never had that many options.   Even when they did, the NPC only had 2-3 responses.

[Firky]

I seem to remember David Gaider's mod for BG2 adding more dialogue. Actually, it also added alternative, dialogue driven solutions, from memory. (Must resist urge to go play it and see. Well, until the EE, which is coming very soon. I wonder if those mods will be compatible ...)

[Vormaerin]

rapscallioness wrote...

I so much agree with this. This is exactly true. Personally, I find it more interesting to have to know and understand the NPC you want to romance, and how to approach them.

I always thought the flirt icon was there because some players didn't want to accidentally romance the same sex. So, they put that in there for them.

But this is not a flaw with icons, but with the romances.  The point of the flirt dialogue is to distinguish between "I like you, Anora"  and  "I like you, Anora :wub:"  on the part of the player.   Ever since Aerie in BG2, its been very difficult to separate being nice/supportive and being romantic in Bioware conversations.   Ninjamancing is a problem and not just with same sex.

The romances can be written to progress without every right answer being a flirt.   But the player should be able to signal interest separate from being friendly.

[SafetyShattered]

I agree, I would love for it to be removed as well. It dumbed things down WAY too much. If I wanted to romance someone I would always look for the heart. I didn't have to bother reading the paraphrases all. In DAO I had to read through all my options and pick the one that I thought would be the best thing to say. I actually had to think. In DA2 that aspect was completely gone.

[Cultist]

Plaintiff wrote...
Oh please. The dialogue system in Deus Ex: HR is pretty much identical to the one used in DA2.

...except for many times more results, reactions, and consequences...and options to select from.

Plaintiff wrote...
Icons do not "dumb things down" and without them, many of the statements would be extremely ambiguous, but don't let reality get in the way of your bias.

And ambiguous they are...thanks to the new DA2 paraphrase dialogue wheel, but don't let reality get in the way of your bias

Plaintiff wrote...
Telling people to 'analyse' the line is not only condescending and arrogant, but utterly retarded. I shouldn't need to 'analyse' the emotions of my own character, and analysis does not guarantee that I will get the result I wanted. In case you weren't aware, different people can analyse and come up with different outcomes from the one you or the writers intended.

 In case you weren't aware you should analyze the dialogue, with whom you are talking to predict the results of saying certain phrases, not emotions of your character. and that analysis should not guarantee the result. you'll be surprised but that's how it works - you can predict, to a certain margin, but don't know what other person will answer and how he will react exactly...unless you can see the future.
And with icons you already know the result of the conversation before speaking the line.

Plaintiff wrote...
If I'm about to flirt with someone, I damn well want to know. I don't want my party members getting the impression that I'm interested in them, and then getting butthurt and flipping their **** when I hook up with someone else.

As it's been said before - welcome to the real world! People may misinterpretate other people's intentions. Come to think of it - half of TV sitcoms are based on this. And it is your problem that you can't deal with unpredicted events your actions caused and lack of foreknowledge. If you want to always be in control of each and every aspect of the game, then RPGs are not for you, i guess. Maybe you should try Call of Duty.

Modifié par Cultist, 29 juin 2012 - 11:00 .

[Cultist]

Allan Schumacher wrote...
The only one I can think of for PST is the answer to what can change the nature of man. It was atypical (though it did tend to have a large amount of dialogue choices).

Which instances of BG2 had 15-20? It certainly wasn't the norm.

Yes, on average, BG2 for example, got 4-8 options for common conversations but the most important ones got very complex trees. I may be mistaken, but as far as i remember, the longest dialogue with 20 or so options was in Spellhold and second was a peaceful solution with Firecrag where you made a deal to get him Writ and kill the hostage girl.
That would be cumbersome to have 10 or so options in EVERY dialogue but most important key moments of the story certainly require a lot and, most important, complex dialogues.

[Allan Schumacher]

Yes, on average, BG2 for example, got 4-8 options for common conversations but the most important ones got very complex trees. I may be mistaken, but as far as i remember, the longest dialogue with 20 or so options was in Spellhold and second was a peaceful solution with Firecrag where you made a deal to get him Writ and kill the hostage girl.
That would be cumbersome to have 10 or so options in EVERY dialogue but most important key moments of the story certainly require a lot and, most important, complex dialogues.

Is there any chance you were playing a mod? I don't recall this at all....

[Firky]

Is Firecrag how you say Firkraag? I've been using Firkraag as a moniker for many years and I always thought it was Fur-crag. Heheh. (Although I was never sure. And someone called me Fear-crag on a podcast one time.)

You could solve the Firkraag thing without fighting if you were evil, from memory.

[Xewaka]

Plaintiff wrote...
Oh please. The dialogue system in Deus Ex: HR is pretty much identical to the one used in DA2.

I must've gotten different versions of the games, then. In my DX:HR, I could read practically the full line in the box at the right of the diamond, whereas in DA2 I'd be lucky if each option had more than three words in the description. Words completely unrelated to the actual dialogue, might I add.

[rapscallioness]

Vormaerin wrote...

rapscallioness wrote...

I so much agree with this. This is exactly true. Personally, I find it more interesting to have to know and understand the NPC you want to romance, and how to approach them.

I always thought the flirt icon was there because some players didn't want to accidentally romance the same sex. So, they put that in there for them.

But this is not a flaw with icons, but with the romances.  The point of the flirt dialogue is to distinguish between "I like you, Anora"  and  "I like you, Anora :wub:"  on the part of the player.   Ever since Aerie in BG2, its been very difficult to separate being nice/supportive and being romantic in Bioware conversations.   Ninjamancing is a problem and not just with same sex.

The romances can be written to progress without every right answer being a flirt.   But the player should be able to signal interest separate from being friendly.

I would prefer no icons. I would prefer the romances progress without it always being that my character is blatantly hitting on the NPC to make that happen. A part of the progression of romance is simply getting to know the other person. Then it builds from there.

When the time comes the player can see a romantic line to pursue if they wish. A romantic line, even paraphrase, should be very simple to write so it can be distinguished.

They were trying so hard not to ninjamance players that they took the fun out of players discovering the romance.

[GodWood]

Allan Schumacher wrote...
Would it be less "dumbing down" if we had more instances such as Avelline, whom the player could flirt with but wouldn't respond to?

That would certainly be much better then the current system.

ATM the "press heart to bang" thing kind of takes away the complexity of the romances or at least makes them feel more cheap.

Direwolf0294 wrote...
I think that would just lead to players becoming angry.

Such people would simply have to learn that not everyone wants to get into their virtual pantaloons.

Modifié par GodWood, 29 juin 2012 - 09:51 .

[Cultist]

Allan Schumacher wrote...
Is there any chance you were playing a mod? I don't recall this at all....

No, only WEiDU banter packs and some other, but not dialogue changing mods. Firkraagwas a dragon who proposed you to get him writ for the lands around his castle. He gave you the quest in human form at the Bazaar.

[SeanMurphy2]

I really dislike the tone system. It reminds me of the Sims. It feels like the focus is on picking tones and getting points.

In Origins there was full sentences and you had to absorb the nuances of language. DA2 feels like repeatedly clicking the tone icon. It makes me feel empty.

Though I never liked the Mass Effect dialogue system or understood its popularity. Why simplify human interaction to two or three tones and repeat that structure for every situation.

[Pasquale1234]

^ This.

... but if the dialog wheel/paraphrase system are truly here to stay, I can't imagine how a player would select a response without the tone icons. As it stands, given the disconnect between the paraphrase and what Hawke actually says, at least the tone icons give the player some clue of the general way the response will be delivered. Without full text or tone icons, players would be truly shooting in the dark in selecting responses...

[Nefla]

I'm telling you guys, the dialogue wheel without guidance (tone icons, fixed tone position, etc...) will get you results like swtor. Where you have no idea what you're going to do or say. Sure having characters reaction to you be unknown is realistic, but that's only the issue with a game like DA:O where you know what you're saying because the whole line is written and DA3 wont be going back to that. I should be able to know what my own character/my SELF is going to say. In swtor there will be times where you pick a response thinking it means "hey there you are!" but your character says "I'm going to kill your men and then I'm comming for you!" Wait what? I didn't want to say that!

[wsandista]

Plaintiff wrote...

Oh please. The dialogue system in Deus Ex: HR is pretty much identical to the one used in DA2.

That's BS.



This tells you the intent of the line, so you why Adam is saying what he says.

http://t3.gstatic.co...De2RzLSq-CsGgl3

This gives you a vague idea of the tone being used in the line.

[Brockololly]

Wulfram wrote...

I'd get rid of the icons and replace it with text, so you can have more variety and thus give more information.

Rather than one icon, you could have, say, [Tease], [Mock] and [Banter], which would be a lot clearer about what your character was going to say.

Or do something like Bloodlines and have some of the actual lines colored differently or in a different font.

But yes, just having actual text denoting the tone would be far more helpful than the icons. Especially since I don't think the icons are ever explained at all within the game. You're forced to go digging around the manual to figure out what they're supposed to mean. And even then they're given nebulous explanations.

Allan Schumacher wrote...
I've been curious about this because many use it as an example of the "dumbing down" of the wheel.

Would
it be less "dumbing down" if we had more instances such as Avelline,
whom the player could flirt with but wouldn't respond to?

The problem with the "flirt" icon was that it wasn't really just a "flirt" icon- it was a catch all romance icon. Throwing that heart up made it feel like if you didn't pick it then you'd be screwing up a possible romance. And compared to something like Origins where you had to read the choices and pick the romance lines, just blindly picking all the heart icons made the romances in DA2 feel incredibly boring and uninvolved, IMO.

Add to that the fact that the "flirt" icon was terribly nebulous  in intent too. I think there is one time with Merril where you can pick the flirt icon and that locks you into a cutscene with Hawke getting all serios romantic with her and the next thing you know, you're waking up in bed next to Merill. There is a huge difference between playfully flirting with somebody and bedding them.

That's my issue with the icons and dialogue wheel in general really though. The icons simply add another layer of abstraction and obfuscation of what the actual line and tone of the PC is going to be when added with the paraphrases. It adds another layer of expectation. So off of the paraphrase I'm going to be expecting certain lines to be said and with the tone icon I'm going to expect a certain tone. And if the lines aren't present or delivered in a way by the voice actor that doesn't line up with how I expected them to be delivered based on the paraphrase and icon, I'm disconnected from the experience.

I can't tell you how many times picking the "diplomatic" option turned Hawke into a spineless ninny, just becoming the biggest apologist and letting everyone walk all over him. That's my problem with the icons is that they're too vague and broad in what they're trying to set up, leading to disconnects between the player and PC.

With the icons, it too often ends up where you don't bother reading the paraphrases at all but just pick the tone. Want to romance somebody? Just pick all the heart icons, you don't even need to read anything! Yes, you have instances like Aveline which are a good kind of feedback, but it just ends up being a far less engaging process than having to read through all of the possible full text dialogue choices and weigh all of them against each other before going forward.

Modifié par Brockololly, 29 juin 2012 - 04:29 .

[Wulfram]

One issue with the icons is that they make the formula for dialogue writing a bit too obvious.

I mean, the basic format of

1. Nice response
2. Neutral/Snarky response
3. Evil/Angry response
4+. Investigate options

has I think always been there, and generally worked. But with it being specifically called out it can seem a bit off putting.

[Kidd]

I do not want the icons removed, in fact I want even more icons (such as a differentiation between "What do you think, [companion]?" and "Solve this for me, [companion]!" which currently share icons). Being surprised by my character speaking in a way I didn't intend is the biggest disconnect there is to me. I know some people feel the same way about exact wording, but I don't really care about that, myself.

I'm playing Fallout 3 for the first time right now, and having a blast with it. As much fun as it is though, the dialogues leave a lot to be desired. The point that is relevant to this thread is how - just like in older BioWare games - there are lots of words but no showcasing of tones.

Several times I've had to load my game because my character - made obvious from the answer from the NPC - used a tone I did not at all expect from the written line. The writer and I read the line in different ways, and thus I was unable to use the script the way it was intended. This really hampers role play. If I could instead have an appropriate icon next to the line I picked, I would know with what tone to imagine the line and thus know it was not the line I wanted.

There's a reason you learn very early in creative writing class not to end all your dialogue lines with "he said." It's simply difficult to infer tones without constantly adding stanzas like "she grunted aggressively" or "he said as his face turned suave" and you will end up confusing the reader.

[Wulfram]

I think there's a limit to how many icons you can expect the player to remember and reliably distinguish. Which is why I suggested switching to just using words in their place.

[Pasquale1234]

Wulfram wrote...

I think there's a limit to how many icons you can expect the player to remember and reliably distinguish. Which is why I suggested switching to just using words in their place.

Agreed - especially with the rarely used icons.

Full text is easier all around.

[King Cousland]

Agree with Wulfram, but would be nice if we could get some dev input on Crusty's post about the dialogue compass.

Modifié par harkness72, 29 juin 2012 - 07:28 .