216 réponses à ce sujet

[PaulSX]

harkness72 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Icons do not "dumb things down" and without them, many of the statements would be extremely ambiguous, but don't let reality get in the way of your bias.
.

Bias? We have opinions, and since we have no vested interested apart from our own commercial decisions in the route BioWare takes, we're not biased at all. 

And even with the icons, statements were still ambiguous and could result in confusion and miscommunication. They're dumbed down because they limit writing for the PC (and therefore the player's chosen development of the PC themself) to just three very narrow, very generic and ultimately very boring personality types. 

the statements are ambiguous because of bad writting not icons themselves.
the icons are good additions but still need some work into it.
the similiar ideas could be seen from Vampire masquerade bloodline where seduce and persuasion lines are marked with different colors.

[King Cousland]

suntzuxi wrote...

harkness72 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Icons do not "dumb things down" and without them, many of the statements would be extremely ambiguous, but don't let reality get in the way of your bias.
.

Bias? We have opinions, and since we have no vested interested apart from our own commercial decisions in the route BioWare takes, we're not biased at all. 

And even with the icons, statements were still ambiguous and could result in confusion and miscommunication. They're dumbed down because they limit writing for the PC (and therefore the player's chosen development of the PC themself) to just three very narrow, very generic and ultimately very boring personality types. 

the statements are ambiguous because of bad writting not icons themselves.
the icons are good additions but still need some work into it.
the similiar ideas could be seen from Vampire masquerade bloodline where seduce and persuasion lines are marked with different colors.

I agree, but Plaintiff's post impled that the icons made it clear what was going to be said. 

[wowpwnslol]

Cultist wrote...

Along with abominable dialogue wheel and dumbed down dialogue trees we got various conversation icons to indicate out tone, like Diplomatic, agressive, sarcastic etc. The problem with them is that they act like background laughter in TV sitcom, telling us "that was a joke".
To clarify that "I will kill you and all your family" is agressive and "Let's talk this out" is diplomatic.
Conversations are dumbed down to the point where you may not even read the paraphrases, just go by colour as 90% of all dialogues never go beyond "Yes", "No" and "Investigate".
Remove the icons, at least make people read the lines. They are not mentally challenged imbeciles, who can't understant or figure the meaning of the phrase. make them analyze the dialogue they are in, even the primitive ones we got iin DA2.
As Devs said that dialogue wheel is here to stay, but can be transformed into something less harmful, take inspiration from Deus EX: HR. they still got tones but you must choose from different options of one tone and each option resulted in different outcomes.

I wouldn't be so sure about that...

[AkiKishi]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

I'm playing Fallout 3 for the first time right now, and having a blast with it. As much fun as it is though, the dialogues leave a lot to be desired. The point that is relevant to this thread is how - just like in older BioWare games - there are lots of words but no showcasing of tones.

Try New Vegas.Still no tone, but the writing is higher quality all around.

[Jormundgander]

Dragon Age Origins numeric dialogue system (the same as KOTOR and Baldur's Gate) was just PERFECT. Bioware ruined it in Dragon Age 2, believing that Mass Effect wheel system would appeal to a wider audience. The result was the opposite, so Dragon Age 3 MUST have DA: Origins dialogue system.

If not, me (and 90% of fans) are not going to buy it. Because DA 2 childish dialogues were mediocre in comparison to Origins mature dialogues. And that's all.

[LightningSamus]

I didn't mind them.

[Kidd]

BobSmith101 wrote...

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

I'm playing Fallout 3 for the first time right now, and having a blast with it. As much fun as it is though, the dialogues leave a lot to be desired. The point that is relevant to this thread is how - just like in older BioWare games - there are lots of words but no showcasing of tones.

Try New Vegas.Still no tone, but the writing is higher quality all around.

As soon as I beat FO3, dear =)

[Cultist]

F3: NV also imnplemented very successful aspect - added skill description to the dialogue lines. Like [Speech] when you can persuade or [Repair],[Explosives],[Science] when this skills could be adressed for checking if they are high enough to pass.
We could use similar approach with [Blood Magic] when you can doiminate someone's mind or force him\\her to do something. [Healing] to heal some wounded. [Poison] to discover poinson after assassination. yet Paraphrases with dialogue wheel again cut this idea out of the game in favor of "I go there" or "We will not" or other primitive options.

[Playest]

Allan Schumacher wrote...
Maybe we should restrict the hearts to overt flirts, and not preclude romances from continuing simply because we didn't pick the heart option?

THIS!

[Nefla]

Playest wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...
Maybe we should restrict the hearts to overt flirts, and not preclude romances from continuing simply because we didn't pick the heart option?

THIS!

Yeah I would like this too

[Xerxes52]

I was fine with the icons, made things a lot less ambiguous.

[AkiKishi]

Playest wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...
Maybe we should restrict the hearts to overt flirts, and not preclude romances from continuing simply because we didn't pick the heart option?

THIS!

I'd rather not. I stopped talking to Steve in ME3 because the paraphrasing was so ambigious. As long as the game has herosexual characters the heart icons really need to stay.

[TonberryFeye]

BobSmith101 wrote...
I'd rather not. I stopped talking to Steve in ME3 because the paraphrasing was so ambigious. As long as the game has herosexual characters the heart icons really need to stay.

Yeah, because nobody could ever tell in Origins whether you were flirting with Zevran or not when you said you would enjoy tying him up...

I said a few days ago on the Origins board that I accidentally romanced Alistair on this playthrough, and I take that as proof that Origins had the vastly superior dialog system. In DA2, romance is jarring; it's an on or off state. I was always nice to Alistair as my Dwarf Noble because he was exactly what she needed - a friend.

At no point did I consciously begin to flirt with him. I gave him gifts, made jokes, and was generally nice because that's what you do with friends. And then he starts saying things that are a bit... mushy. All of a sudden he's giving me a rose.

It wasn't out of the blue; he'd said a few things earlier that, looking back, were obvious triggers, but it's kind of nice to have this sort of thing just come about organically, as it should, instead of "we are now in a relationship because you were overtly flirting with me that one time, even though you've been a complete **** to me in every other conversation and you never do what I want you to and you murdered my dog. I love you now."

[Nefla]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Playest wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...
Maybe we should restrict the hearts to overt flirts, and not preclude romances from continuing simply because we didn't pick the heart option?

THIS!

I'd rather not. I stopped talking to Steve in ME3 because the paraphrasing was so ambigious. As long as the game has herosexual characters the heart icons really need to stay.

Well the only two options to flirt with Steve are at purgatory in the same conversation and when Steve says "some of the eye candy in the crowd is good, etc..." and the camera pans to a guy, if you can't  tell which of these is the gay/ flirt option, you may have a problem:

Option 1- "I'm eye candy too"
Option 2- "The eye candy on the stage is fine for me" (there are only women on stage)

and later he says "I hear a few ladies have shown interest, you haven't bitten yet?" If you can't tell between:

Option 1- "I haven't found the right woman yet"
Option 2- "I haven't found the right man yet"

Well...

[Wulfram]

In ME3, it was pretty clear when an option was a flirt. What was sometimes less clear was when they weren't.

Really, there wasn't any risk of a ninjamance, but you don't know that until you've played through or looked at guides.

My first playthrough I had to check which option to pick with Samantha, since one was to invite her to use the shower, but the other seemed like it could be flirty too. And I was worried that I might have been ninjamanced by Vega, too.

[AkiKishi]

Nefla wrote...
Well the only two options to flirt with Steve are at purgatory in the same conversation and when Steve says "some of the eye candy in the crowd is good, etc..." and the camera pans to a guy, if you can't  tell which of these is the gay/ flirt option, you may have a problem:

Option 1- "I'm eye candy too"
Option 2- "The eye candy on the stage is fine for me" (there are only women on stage)

and later he says "I hear a few ladies have shown interest, you haven't bitten yet?" If you can't tell between:

Option 1- "I haven't found the right woman yet"
Option 2- "I haven't found the right man yet"

Well...

That's all well and good if you know what conversation triggers what . The general dialogue is more ambiguous so unless it's made very clear you still need the heart icons.

[wsandista]

BobSmith101 wrote...

I'd rather not. I stopped talking to Steve in ME3 because the paraphrasing was so ambigious. As long as the game has herosexual characters the heart icons really need to stay.

What if the PC is fixed and bisexual?

[AkiKishi]

wsandista wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

I'd rather not. I stopped talking to Steve in ME3 because the paraphrasing was so ambigious. As long as the game has herosexual characters the heart icons really need to stay.

What if the PC is fixed and bisexual?

You mean like a PC version of Isabella ? 

[wsandista]

BobSmith101 wrote...

wsandista wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

I'd rather not. I stopped talking to Steve in ME3 because the paraphrasing was so ambigious. As long as the game has herosexual characters the heart icons really need to stay.

What if the PC is fixed and bisexual?

You mean like a PC version of Isabella ? 

Or Zevran. Maybe a less sex addicted version though.

[AkiKishi]

wsandista wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

wsandista wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

I'd rather not. I stopped talking to Steve in ME3 because the paraphrasing was so ambigious. As long as the game has herosexual characters the heart icons really need to stay.

What if the PC is fixed and bisexual?

You mean like a PC version of Isabella ? 

Or Zevran. Maybe a less sex addicted version though.

Dunno. I'd have to think about that. I'm generally in favour of fixing things where there is benefit to the story. I can't see any sort of benifit to a character being a fixed bisexual though.

[wsandista]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Dunno. I'd have to think about that. I'm generally in favour of fixing things where there is benefit to the story. I can't see any sort of benifit to a character being a fixed bisexual though.

The player no longer has those "my PC would never do that" moments. 

[AkiKishi]

wsandista wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Dunno. I'd have to think about that. I'm generally in favour of fixing things where there is benefit to the story. I can't see any sort of benifit to a character being a fixed bisexual though.

The player no longer has those "my PC would never do that" moments. 

Well you could. But the icon is still a lot more straightforward and there is still no story benifit being demonstrated.

[wsandista]

BobSmith101 wrote...

wsandista wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Dunno. I'd have to think about that. I'm generally in favour of fixing things where there is benefit to the story. I can't see any sort of benifit to a character being a fixed bisexual though.

The player no longer has those "my PC would never do that" moments. 

Well you could. But the icon is still a lot more straightforward and there is still no story benifit being demonstrated.

True, I'm just playing Devil's Advocate. Still, it placates those whose sole reason to play DA is to have s/s couplings and are afraid that a fixed PC could take that away from them.

[Nefla]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Nefla wrote...
Well the only two options to flirt with Steve are at purgatory in the same conversation and when Steve says "some of the eye candy in the crowd is good, etc..." and the camera pans to a guy, if you can't  tell which of these is the gay/ flirt option, you may have a problem:

Option 1- "I'm eye candy too"
Option 2- "The eye candy on the stage is fine for me" (there are only women on stage)

and later he says "I hear a few ladies have shown interest, you haven't bitten yet?" If you can't tell between:

Option 1- "I haven't found the right woman yet"
Option 2- "I haven't found the right man yet"

Well...

That's all well and good if you know what conversation triggers what . The general dialogue is more ambiguous so unless it's made very clear you still need the heart icons.

What are you talking about? The only way to start a romance with Steve is to tell him twice that you're interested in men and then tell him you "want to be more than friends." This all happens in one scene in the purgatory bar, there is no other chance to flirt with him or start a romance. All other dialogue is platonic, sounds platonic, and can be said by femshep as well. I really don't see how in the world you could mistake "I want to be more than friends" as anything else but a flirt. You can even tell Steve you're gay and NOT try to start a relationship with him. You really have to be pushy to get him in a romance, he wont come on to you like Kaidan and Ashley will. Also he recognizes if you already have a relationship so if you say "I'm eye candy too" (where Shepard's line is "I'm hurt, why aren't you looking over here?") he'll say "who says I'm not, but I know there's something between you and ____" and then no Steve romance for you.