216 réponses à ce sujet

[Dasher1010]

I support losing the icons. It means that our options will be more limited by tone instead of giving us three different tones at all times. maybe give us four regular options, an investigate option on the center-left and a persuade at the top left.

[Cultist]

Flirt icon was te most spectacular example of icon's flaws, but other fare no better. Example:
Humorous icon - you can joke with good intentions or mock someone to provoke them.
Agressive - you can say "I said do it!" or "I said stop it!"
and so on.
not only flirt optins can be misleading with dialogue wheel and paraphrases

Modifié par Cultist, 03 juillet 2012 - 06:43 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

First of all, a dialogue timer is an absolute no go. As they are, the conversations and cutscenes are already in dire need of a pause button. Making them time-sensitive would make them worse, not better. Moreover, I insist that timed dialogue is akin to action combat in that it breaks the game's setting. The player's physical characteristics should never impact how his character behaves. If I misclick an option because I'm hurrying, that's either a reload or a broken character. The paraphrase breaks the character enough, thanks; breaking the character more isn't a desirable outcome.

Second, the tone icons in DA2 failed primarily because they were ill-defined. We didn't actually know what "Aggressive", "Humorous", "Charming", "Diplomatic", "Helpful", or "Diplomatic" meant. I found Aggressive, Humorous, and Charming to be the most difficult tones to use.

Is humorous supposed to be something that our character thinks is funny, or that we will find funny? Those could be very different things. Will the line be sarcastic, and thus the paraphrase is misleading, or will it be irrelevant observational humor, or what?

DA2's tone icons were badly in need of precise definitions rigidly applied.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

^

Crusty, I've seen this posted on the forums from time to time. Where did this originate from? Did Sylvius draft this up?

While I'm flattered that you think I wrote that, and I do quite like what I see there, I have never seen the Dialogue Compass before.

[AkiKishi]

Nefla wrote...
What are you talking about? The only way to start a romance with Steve is to tell him twice that you're interested in men and then tell him you "want to be more than friends." This all happens in one scene in the purgatory bar, there is no other chance to flirt with him or start a romance. All other dialogue is platonic, sounds platonic, and can be said by femshep as well. I really don't see how in the world you could mistake "I want to be more than friends" as anything else but a flirt. You can even tell Steve you're gay and NOT try to start a relationship with him. You really have to be pushy to get him in a romance, he wont come on to you like Kaidan and Ashley will. Also he recognizes if you already have a relationship so if you say "I'm eye candy too" (where Shepard's line is "I'm hurt, why aren't you looking over here?") he'll say "who says I'm not, but I know there's something between you and ____" and then no Steve romance for you.

Again I had no idea what the trigger conditions were. For all I knew it could have been something you said when talking to him in the shuttle bay.

[Cultist]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
Is humorous supposed to be something that our character thinks is funny, or that we will find funny? Those could be very different things.
DA2's tone icons were badly in need of precise definitions rigidly applied.

Exactly my point. I find it funny to use Blood Magic to force a mob of Chantry sisters attack tamplars. Or use Blood magic on Quinary with time bomb to make him\\her run to his mates to bklow them to pieces. yet I doubt everyone share my definition of "funny".

[Nefla]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Nefla wrote...
What are you talking about? The only way to start a romance with Steve is to tell him twice that you're interested in men and then tell him you "want to be more than friends." This all happens in one scene in the purgatory bar, there is no other chance to flirt with him or start a romance. All other dialogue is platonic, sounds platonic, and can be said by femshep as well. I really don't see how in the world you could mistake "I want to be more than friends" as anything else but a flirt. You can even tell Steve you're gay and NOT try to start a relationship with him. You really have to be pushy to get him in a romance, he wont come on to you like Kaidan and Ashley will. Also he recognizes if you already have a relationship so if you say "I'm eye candy too" (where Shepard's line is "I'm hurt, why aren't you looking over here?") he'll say "who says I'm not, but I know there's something between you and ____" and then no Steve romance for you.

Again I had no idea what the trigger conditions were. For all I knew it could have been something you said when talking to him in the shuttle bay.

Then why bring it up at all? You were acting like Steve ninjamanced you when that is clearly impossible.

[AkiKishi]

Nefla wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Nefla wrote...
What are you talking about? The only way to start a romance with Steve is to tell him twice that you're interested in men and then tell him you "want to be more than friends." This all happens in one scene in the purgatory bar, there is no other chance to flirt with him or start a romance. All other dialogue is platonic, sounds platonic, and can be said by femshep as well. I really don't see how in the world you could mistake "I want to be more than friends" as anything else but a flirt. You can even tell Steve you're gay and NOT try to start a relationship with him. You really have to be pushy to get him in a romance, he wont come on to you like Kaidan and Ashley will. Also he recognizes if you already have a relationship so if you say "I'm eye candy too" (where Shepard's line is "I'm hurt, why aren't you looking over here?") he'll say "who says I'm not, but I know there's something between you and ____" and then no Steve romance for you.

Again I had no idea what the trigger conditions were. For all I knew it could have been something you said when talking to him in the shuttle bay.

Then why bring it up at all? You were acting like Steve ninjamanced you when that is clearly impossible.

Where did I ever say I was Steve ninjamanced ? What I said was I stopped talking to Steve because the dialogue was ambiguous. And having a heart icon would have made it clear which option led to what.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 03 juillet 2012 - 03:19 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

TonberryFeye wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...
I'd rather not. I stopped talking to Steve in ME3 because the paraphrasing was so ambigious. As long as the game has herosexual characters the heart icons really need to stay.

Yeah, because nobody could ever tell in Origins whether you were flirting with Zevran or not when you said you would enjoy tying him up...

I said a few days ago on the Origins board that I accidentally romanced Alistair on this playthrough, and I take that as proof that Origins had the vastly superior dialog system. In DA2, romance is jarring; it's an on or off state. I was always nice to Alistair as my Dwarf Noble because he was exactly what she needed - a friend.

At no point did I consciously begin to flirt with him. I gave him gifts, made jokes, and was generally nice because that's what you do with friends. And then he starts saying things that are a bit... mushy. All of a sudden he's giving me a rose.

It wasn't out of the blue; he'd said a few things earlier that, looking back, were obvious triggers, but it's kind of nice to have this sort of thing just come about organically, as it should, instead of "we are now in a relationship because you were overtly flirting with me that one time, even though you've been a complete **** to me in every other conversation and you never do what I want you to and you murdered my dog. I love you now."

Exactly.  This is yet another way in which DAO's conversations mirror real-world conversations.

[Kidd]

Nefla wrote...

Also he recognizes if you already have a relationship so if you say "I'm eye candy too" (where Shepard's line is "I'm hurt, why aren't you looking over here?") he'll say "who says I'm not, but I know there's something between you and ____" and then no Steve romance for you.

Quick aside, is it possible to go "I'll dump them for you!" at that point? I'm a sucker for sappiness =)

[Wulfram]

Origins ninja-mancing really wouldn't have been a problem if you started at the beginning of the romance. The problem was that if you had high approval, then the slightest apparent indication of interest would jump you straight to near the end, so the first you tended to hear of it was the "choose between me and your real LI" conversation.

[Nefla]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

Nefla wrote...

Also he recognizes if you already have a relationship so if you say "I'm eye candy too" (where Shepard's line is "I'm hurt, why aren't you looking over here?") he'll say "who says I'm not, but I know there's something between you and ____" and then no Steve romance for you.

Quick aside, is it possible to go "I'll dump them for you!" at that point? I'm a sucker for sappiness =)

Sadly no >.< but if there had been, I would have dumped Liara like a bad habit (had to force myself to romance her on one playthrough just so I can see every romance)

[Nefla]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Where did I ever say I was Steve ninjamanced ? What I said was I stopped talking to Steve because the dialogue was ambiguous. And having a heart icon would have made it clear which option led to what.

Well assuming the dialogue might lead to romance was more a product of being used to ninjamances in other games then, since the dialogue options for Steve were very cut and dry (come to think of it, all the flirts in ME3 were compared to other games). Does "I'm eye candy too" and "I want to be more than friends" really need a heart for you to tell it's a flirt?

For the dialogue wheel in general, I'd rather have clear paraphrases but if the paraphrase is something like "Bob!" then heck yes I need a tone icon, what the heck does "Bob!" mean? Am I threatening him or saying it's great to see him and it's been a long time? I think Me3 did a good job at the paraphrasing + set tone placement, and SWTOR is downright awful (it's a random crapshoot and I never know what the heck I'm saying, I think my character is insane). I'm not really a fan of having the whole line displayed and then have the character say the exact same thing I just picked (two worlds 2, deus ex human revolution) I either want an unvoiced protagonist where I pick a full line or a voiced protagonist with a summary.

[Cultist]

Tone icon for paraphrases like "Bob!" really did not clarify the things.

[snackrat]

DON'T remove icons! The number of times I had to reload DAO because I thought something over the top was sarcastic but was woefully serious.... or I asked something as a serious question only to have the character laugh it off... or I thought I was being friendly and supportive and suddenly romance...

"I do like you, and not for your blood."
WHAT I THOUGHT: "I'm not going to hate you for your father. You're still one of my mates."
WHAT HE THOUGHT: "Yes I am SO HOT FOR YOU RIGHT NOW"

"The Maker is on my side? Well join right away then!"
WHAT I THOUGHT: Haha, there's no way that's serious. "You're clearly off your rocker and you need to say more than THAT to convince me."
WHAT SHE THOUGHT: "Oh yay!" *joins*

...just continues on in that vein forever.
I do agree that the icons are often to handholding... they should be measuring intent, not result. So if something sounds flirty (like some of the sarcastic options did), even if it doesn't start anything, give it a heart. If something is flirty, even if the other character thinks it is inappropriate and backs off, give it a heart. If you say something mean to force a person away only to find out oh wait, they're TOTALLY INTO THAT, give it the broken heart regardless.

I wouldn't recommend removing the heart icons (just changing when they appear) because there were several lines in DAO I thought were friendly that were not or that one would think were flirty but were dismissed. Though I personally never fell into the... 'trap' (come on guys it was FLIPPIN' OBVIOUS) many players had the horrors of Zevran's 'massage surprise' because... because of reasons, I don't know, but they evidently didn't like it. (Mostly.) The fact that I got used to checking relationship bars after every conversation to make sure I hadn't accidentally started a relationship I didn't want is a marker on its own about the problem.

As for the rest of the icons, sometimes intent and tone make ALL. THE. DIFFERENCE. I have grievously offended DAO characters because I thought lines were jokes that they took seriously or vice-versa.

[craigdolphin]

The issue I had with the heart icon was that it took away any sense of gameplay and discovery in the conversations. There was no need to try to figure out how to initiate the romance: to discover what lines of approach would resonate with the other person. Instead, you just picked the one that had the neon heart signpost. Of course, the inability to initiate conversations whenever, wherever you were also contributed to that feeling that these characters were one dimensional constructs that were simply along to participate in the fighty fights. Overall, IMO the conversation system in DAO just contained more gameplay, a better sense of exploration, and a better facsimile of 'realism' than the system in DA2. It'sa trend that also exists in other aspects of the game IMO.

I hope that DA3 reverses that unfortunate trend.

[Chipaway111]

No more icons... please. Someone described (and I don't know if it's in this thread) the 'flirt' icon in DA:2 as a giant, start romance now! Button.

I have to agree, whole-heartedly. They made conversations feel token, like I got to pick my favourite colour and have a fun time guessing what Hawke would say next.

[The_11thDoctor]

I thought that was one of the things DA2 did right frankly. Its crazy to get rid of them. I say keep them. Its clear indication of what tone your saying a line. I hated playing games and saying a line to find out the inflection in its tone was completely left field from what I thought when reading it. DA2 stopped misunderstandings of a lines inflection instantly with the icon indications. I didnt get a sitcom feel at all. Thats just the OP

[Amycus89]

The conversation icons never fixed anything, they only added a bunch of other problems that has already been mentioned to death.

Even with conversation icons, there were several occurances when the tone gave quite a sudden change, and don't even get me started on how the content of the line being completely different than I imagined 99% of the time.

In DA:O I just had a problem with the dialogue about twice. Once when talking with Alistar about lyrium addicted templars, with "sounds like an excellent idea", and with Leliana and her shoes. In DA2, too many too count.

Either scrap them completely, or use something that describes the feeling more accurately with text (for example [irritated], [angrily], [defiantly], [mockingly], [enraged], [insultingly], [untrusting] as opposed to just gather it all together in the single big red colour category) beside the conversation option.

[Nightdragon8]

the ICONS are fine, IMO just need more than say 3 options, + whatever investgate has. generally only 3, I think i did see 5 at one point but it was on a main quest one....

Because what I really do miss in DA:O is having a dialoge with compaions and also being able to make out with loved one right in front of everyone, still loved doing that to Morgan

As fpr "dumbing down" ehh I can sort of see it... Its like a Visual Novel. Its pretty much giving you the answers of wither you flirt or not with a char.

With DAO really you don't have that option mainly because its not there. You either agree with the char or not, and it effects how much they like you. And with the romance, really what you end up having to do is (surprize surprize) get to know the char. Sort of like a real relationship.

Now with that said. What i would like to see is yes flirt options but have them or not react nicely to them (like Izzy, Liliana, or not like Moragen Aveline, (was soo bumbed that Aaveline wasn't a romance option.) Or make it so after they 'warm' up to you then start taking your flirts seriously. or what not.

So, while I like DA2 because it was able to set a tone with people

So maybe insted of bright flags of how to get on X person 'route' for a romance. Make it so you "advance" on them. with icons and stuff.

Also plz PLZ bring back beable able to talk with compaions outside of desitated quest times, or areas.

Heck you can leave areas or "private areas" but if its a topic they wont talk about in the open with others around, then make it so those are the areas you can do it at.

[Absafraginlootly]

I want conversation icons to stay, but not in their current form.

So, instead of having three main options for every conversation, write the lines the same as DA:O but then add an icon afterwoods.

eg. sad, cheerful, polite, rude, derisive, angry, humorous, kind, etc.

Or just have the word so you don't have to design the icons, which would presumably limit the variations.

It would also be nice if the persuasion system was not linked to the icons chosen. I'd personally prefer if the icons were intended to provide clarification of the line my PC will say rather than meant to be selecting a personality for my PC, which I can do for myself, or effecting some unseen persuasion system.

For persuasion it would be nicer for me if it was either back to selecting it with points ala origins, or a bit like witcher 2, you still use the dialogue for the persuasion leveling but it is instead done by selecting persuade and intimidate options rather than personalities.

As for the flirt icon... all the flirty lines in DA2 were cheesy (well the ones I remember anyways ) but you have to select these lines for a romance even if you don't like them. I feel it needs either more flirt lines, for some variety in how you enter the romance, or for them to be treated the same as the rest of the dialogue.

[Alessa]

Yes, please, remove the icons!

I want to find out myself, what makes a companion love me or hate me. I don't want this feeling of "Yeah, let's hit that button and buy some friendship!" that I get, when I am given those icons to choose my dialogue.

[Elvis_Mazur]

Hell no.

They reduce the chances of getting ninjamanced to zero.

Also, just because some people don't read the lines, it doesn't mean that everyone doesn't. I read them, every time I play.

[Iakus]

Tone icons are okay, they just need to be further refined so we can better understand what they mean.

And yes, having more than three options for a responses would be a good thing as well.

[Nightdragon8]

on the wheel all we need is a better descirption as to what is being said is all. There where a few times in DA2 where what was said on the wheel was not said by Mhawk. its annoying

There is a ninja romance with Kadain tho in ME3, like with Liara there is a ninjamance tehre too. the Icons dont dumb the game down. The fact that the text is vague so half the time your guessing dumbs the game down.

As for the romances, I do like the ME and DA:O systems for the romance better.

But in ME and in DA:O YOU CAN TALK TO YOUR COMPAIONS AT ANY DOWNTIME POINT, not just when its questable, like it was in DA:Awakinging. in fact DA2 was really DA:A 2 considering its the exact same system, monsters appering out of nowhere, only able to talk to your compaions at "home base"

So we want the long convos back, thats another reason why I didn't really like ME3 that part of the game didn't seem fulfilling enough.