216 réponses à ce sujet

[Cultist]

PetrySilva wrote...
Hell no.
They reduce the chances of getting ninjamanced to zero.
Also, just because some people don't read the lines, it doesn't mean that everyone doesn't. I read them, every time I play.

ANd they reduce romance to "Start romance" button. Ninjamancing tied to diwlogue wheel and dialogue wheel tied to conversation icons. it doesn't matter if someone actually read the lines or not as long as you have to choose between options like:
- "Derp"
- "Duh"
- "Hrmph"

[Randomjack]

I love the icons, personally. They put Dragon Age 2's dialog ahead of Mass Effect style by giving a greater degree of clarity to what you are saying.

By Mass Effect's standards "Ashley I like your rear" and "Dont murder that man" are both in the same category. I like knowing when lines will go in a romantic direction vs a charming one vs a sarcastic one, ect. It saves me accidentally going the wrong way based on what I think a line will lean toward.

That being said, I'm also in favor of clarification and more party chats - those however, are independent of icons. For example, you could still use the heart option, just have more than one to allow variation - perhaps one which fails to bring the challenge of older games romances

Modifié par Randomjack, 17 juillet 2012 - 09:23 .

[Cultist]

simfamSP wrote...
A paraphrase doesn't dumb down the options, because the full lines are still there. Imagine DA:O with the same lines of dialogue, but instead, they were paraphrased. Does that make them 'dumbed down.'

These 'romance starters' are always there, but in other RPGs they are well hidden. In a way, they make you think more about what you're saying, but they are still there.

What? Where are those full lines? That making full line a paraphrase is exactly dumbing down. Because you are making full line less intuitive, less understandable, so you have to  guess what protagonist meant by all this paraphrases.

Well, that's the whole point of romance starters to be hidden, so players may discover them by actually reading and understanding the dialogue, instead of clicking a heart icon.

[AkiKishi]

Cultist wrote...

simfamSP wrote...
A paraphrase doesn't dumb down the options, because the full lines are still there. Imagine DA:O with the same lines of dialogue, but instead, they were paraphrased. Does that make them 'dumbed down.'

These 'romance starters' are always there, but in other RPGs they are well hidden. In a way, they make you think more about what you're saying, but they are still there.

What? Where are those full lines? That making full line a paraphrase is exactly dumbing down. Because you are making full line less intuitive, less understandable, so you have to  guess what protagonist meant by all this paraphrases.

Well, that's the whole point of romance starters to be hidden, so players may discover them by actually reading and understanding the dialogue, instead of clicking a heart icon.

It's not dumbing down. It's a shift from first person to third. Some impromptu research leads me to the conclusion that third person is easier for beginers to grasp.

[Kidd]

Cultist wrote...

Well, that's the whole point of romance starters to be hidden, so players may discover them by actually reading and understanding the dialogue, instead of clicking a heart icon.

Depends what you mean. I dislike how DA2 generally worked along the lines of flirting always leading to romance if approval was high enough. But it should not be difficult for me to discern what is a flirt and what is not, ever. I know I've had characters flirt with Leliana in DAO for instance when all I wanted was to buddy up with her. So has a lot of people, hence all the complaints on here about her being a drrrty ninjamancer.

Most likely, one of the nice things I had my character say was considered by the writer to be a flirt, yet I didn't read it that way. If this game had happened around a table of D&D, every one around the table would be able to tell if what I said was intended as a flirt or not. It's in my tone when I say it. But Leliana can't know that - all she knows is the writer's intent which is never telegraphed to the player. So my characters can start doing things I never meant them to do.

Icons help remove that sense of surprise and lessens the amount of tedious reloads we have to do. The solution to the issue of "hit heart icons, always" is to simply make characters require more than constant hitting on. Perhaps they'd even get fed up by your character being "too much." As is any way, DA2 companion dialogue is hurting somewhat during romance compared to bromance if you feel the need to flirt as much as possible to be sure the romance fires. It kinda goes like this.

NPC: I have these daddy issues and it sucks.
PC: Aww I can't imagine a dashing rose like you with daddy issues.
NPC: Well you see, the daddy issues come from my daddy being troublesome in the past.
PC: I like your body.
NPC: Thanks! *laugh*
NPC: My daddy issues could be alleviated by doing this quest. Want to know more about it? Wanna help?
PC: If it helps you look up my skirt, I'll do anything.
NPC: Oh I knew you were the right person to befriend!
PC: (all that flirting and still nothing? I suppose I'm not at the right spot in the plot yet... )
NPC: (sheesh, as if this wasn't the least natural conversation ever)

All this would be alleviated by simply having less flirting on the dialogue wheel/list.

[Cultist]

KiddDaBeauty, it's a matter of writing skill, but still that's how conversation works. I know several examples from my life when some people misinterpreted other people's words, taking them as a sign of attraction. I've already said that half of TV sitcoms are based on this concept.
Hell, I personally knew a girl from my university days, who thought a guy was interested in her only because he said once that she's very good guitar player!
Icons gave us result, instead of direction.

Modifié par Cultist, 24 juillet 2012 - 05:56 .

[Sir JK]

Though that's not a factor of the icons themselves, is it?. You could very much have npc respond in unexpected ways regardless of whatever the icon said. As demonstrated by that Aveline never once reciprocates any flirting. One could very much write a character that if you contineously stay supportive, compliments them and assist them with their personal lives they'll initiate romance regardless of whether you intentionally flirt with them. And conversely, allow a person to flirt once or twice without initiating romance.

[EpicBoot2daFace]

I wouldn't miss the icons.

Modifié par EpicBoot2daFace, 25 juillet 2012 - 06:41 .

[fchopin]

I am back to say get rid of the icons and show the full text.

I want to play a thinking game and not a guessing game.

If they are included then please make sure there is a turn of button.

[Naughty Bear]

I don't really mind. I just want mre options not just one happy, kind and miserable.

I want DA:O dialogue back. Multiple questions and investigate choices, not just 3 simple choices. I also want a like and dislike along with a rivalry bar.

Best buddies with Varric but also the biggest rivals when it comes to tasks and competition.

[Fallstar]

If you have a VP and paraphrase system (which we do) some sort of description of how the line will be delivered provides you with more information, it isn't a bad thing. I'd far rather have some idea of how my VP will say whatever the line is, even if I only know vaguely what will be said.

The problem is that every line is neatly categorized into a little picture. Aside from investigate options and special options, we apparently only ever use 6 tones of voice in DA2. Which is ridiculous. Have each option presented like:
[Irritated] - Insert paraphrase here -
[Amused] - Insert paraphrase here -
[Sceptical] - Insert paraphrase here -
Etc.

Give us a word to fit the line that is an accurate description, rather than making every conversation like "OK we need an angry Hawke, a nice Hawke, a bend over backwards for you Hawke, a sarcastic Hawke" etc. Don't assume that your audience will balk at the prospect of reading single words and would rather have a limited number of pretty pictures. It is an 18+ game after all.

Modifié par DuskWarden, 25 juillet 2012 - 10:02 .

[DarthEmpress]

Question for the writers: if you're paraphrasing lines of dialogue you've written isn't that ultimately resulting in more work for you? For example, you have to work out how the player will interpret the paraphrase (the icons help, of course) and make it match up with the spoken dialogue whereas with DA:O and Baldur's Gate you just had the original dialogue there for the player to see. Or does that work differently somehow??? I'm curious :3

I don't mind the icons or paraphrasing but I'd prefer seeing the whole text of what my character is going to say before I click on it.

[brushyourteeth]

DuskWarden wrote...

If you have a VP and paraphrase system (which we do) some sort of description of how the line will be delivered provides you with more information, it isn't a bad thing. I'd far rather have some idea of how my VP will say whatever the line is, even if I only know vaguely what will be said.

The problem is that every line is neatly categorized into a little picture. Aside from investigate options and special options, we apparently only ever use 6 tones of voice in DA2. Which is ridiculous. Have each option presented like:
[Irritated] - Insert paraphrase here -
[Amused] - Insert paraphrase here -
[Sceptical] - Insert paraphrase here -
Etc.

Give us a word to fit the line that is an accurate description, rather than making every conversation like "OK we need an angry Hawke, a nice Hawke, a bend over backwards for you Hawke, a sarcastic Hawke" etc. Don't assume that your audience will balk at the prospect of reading single words and would rather have a limited number of pretty pictures. It is an 18+ game after all.

I have to say I agree. It also shouldn't be inconcievable that a Hawke who is generally pretty diplomatic might lose her cool and choose to say something aggressive or sarcastic. The player still technically had that choice, but I felt significantly shepherded toward one consistent icon for character consistency (nooo, bipolar Hawke, nooo!). Then the dominant personality manifested itself in some cool ways, but completely removed player control and often made me facepalm. Like DuskWarden is saying, it felt obvious at times that lines of dialogue were written expressly so that they would "fit" a Hawke personality type, and not necessarily because they were the most brilliant or organic responses for the conversation. Which lead to Hawke pretty much being a fun, but one-dimensional and completely predictable character.

If we aren't to have full lines of dialogue, I support this - a strong and accurate paraphrase accompanied by the dialogue choice's emotion or intention.

[Kidd]

Cultist wrote...

KiddDaBeauty, it's a matter of writing skill, but still that's how conversation works. I know several examples from my life when some people misinterpreted other people's words, taking them as a sign of attraction. I've already said that half of TV sitcoms are based on this concept.
Hell, I personally knew a girl from my university days, who thought a guy was interested in her only because he said once that she's very good guitar player!
Icons gave us result, instead of direction.

Conversations have people misunderstanding others. But it does not have people misunderstanding themselves. When I make Shepard say something nice to Jacob and the voice actress acts it out as if Shepard's in heat, with Jacob reacting off the flirt, that's Shepard misunderstanding herself. Had the option had a heart icon, I would've known Shepard would have flirted, and thus I would not have chosen that option. Essentially, my Shepard chose to be nice yet somehow flirted any way.

In comparison, I can choose the heart icon option to flirt with Aveline, but that does not mean she will understand what Hawke is talking about. She misunderstands the one who talks, yet the one who talks does not misunderstand herself. The Hawke scenario happens IRL and emulates real conversation, the Shepard scenario does not.

This of course is reflected in every dialogue throughout the game. Using the flirts as examples is simply an easy to understand example. Sarcasm and personal attacks often get confused without icons as well.

Modifié par KiddDaBeauty, 26 juillet 2012 - 09:46 .

[Cultist]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...
When I make Shepard say something nice to Jacob and the voice actress acts it out as if Shepard's in heat, with Jacob reacting off the flirt, that's Shepard misunderstanding herself. Had the option had a heart icon, I would've known Shepard would have flirted, and thus I would not have chosen that option. Essentially, my Shepard chose to be nice yet somehow flirted any way.

In comparison, I can choose the heart icon option to flirt with Aveline, but that does not mean she will understand what Hawke is talking about. She misunderstands the one who talks, yet the one who talks does not misunderstand herself. The Hawke scenario happens IRL and emulates real conversation, the Shepard scenario does not.

This of course is reflected in every dialogue throughout the game. Using the flirts as examples is simply an easy to understand example. Sarcasm and personal attacks often get confused without icons as well.

And here's the problem. Mass Effect is Action with RPG elements and Dragon Age was RPG. Mass Effect got simplified dialogue system, compared to Origins and BG2. It suited ME as it was positioned as action. And when BioWare tried to dumb down dialogue system to make it ME-like, the result was horrible. While fitting for ME, simplified conversations ruined DA2 and paraphrases required icons to at least somehow expand player's understanding. Sadly, icons proved to be ineffective.
Choosing flirt icon with Aveline so she may not understand your intentions is perfectly fine, but all we got is trigger button. Aveline is the only example of Flirt button not initiating a romance, but, I must admit, I suppose that there  were Aveline romance, but due to game being rushed, that part was scrapped and romance remained incomplete. That only my assumption.

DuskWarden wrote...
Give us a word to fit the line that is an accurate description, rather
than making every conversation like "OK we need an angry Hawke, a nice
Hawke, a bend over backwards for you Hawke, a sarcastic Hawke" etc.
Don't assume that your audience will balk at the prospect of reading
single words and would rather have a limited number of pretty pictures.
It is an 18+ game after all

Trick is  - you can hate Chantry, but like mages. Yet, thanks to several conversations with Chantry members, you'll get youself an agressive attitude and forced to be **** to mages, that you like. So you ar eforced to be angry at EVERYONE. That remind me of alignment system from AD&D - you are Chaotic Evil, and are not allowed to deviate from that behaviour, removing any options like brutal merciless marauder, who likes his wife.

[Ianamus]

I think that a good solution to the "heart icon" issue would be that once you have selected a heart option once you no longer need to select heart options to continue the romance, but regular dialogue. Technically the heart would still be just a "start romance now" button, but once you've selected it at least once you actually have to choose which dialogue options you want to pick to continue the relationship successfully. And some characters may refuse to start a relationship with you if the heart icon is selected too soon or too late in the game. Some may simply get angry at you for choosing them and lose approval. 

That way it's impossible to be "ninjamanced", as you have to have had romantic intent at least once, but you still have the freedom to pursue the relationship how you want, without just automatically clicking on the heart icon every time it appears.

It would also be a good idea if the "break up" icon was not always present. If you're horrible to a character they should just dump you outright, "break up" icon or not. That way you actually have to think about how your choices will affect the relationship, rather than just choosing whatever you want and knowing that your relationship will be fine, no matter what options you choose. The Dragon Age 2 characters would have felt more alive if, rather than just becoming a "rivalmance" serious conflicts of interested resulted in outright conflict/ ending of the relationship.

I'm uncertain about the other icons. I can see their use, but ideally the paraphrasing would be good enough that you don't need them- and it often stops you even thinking about what dialogue your choosing, just picking the symbol you always do without thinking about what your actually saying. 

Modifié par EJ107, 05 août 2012 - 05:00 .

[zyntifox]

I really don't want to choose what my character is going to say through whether he is going to be aggressive, diplomatic or flirty through icons. If i want my PC to be diplomatic i want to analyze what my PC can say and pick the option that i perceive as diplomatic. That is why i didn't like the system in DA2. There should be more to role-playing than picking whatever icon fits the general attitude of the PC. To me that's not role-playing, that's role-picking.

Edit: I remember an article that touch on this and did it much more eloquent than me. He said:

 "As far as the dialogue scenes are concerned, this is not role playing;
this is interactive playing. The dialogue is so simple that it could be
replaced by a choice that you make at the beginning of the game: "Do you
want to be a compassionate, humorous, or obnoxious character?" After
that choice, you would only have to watch the dialogue scenes play
through with no player-input at all. "

The article, which i can recommend, is: http://www.hookedgam...lassic_rpg.html

Modifié par Cstaf, 05 août 2012 - 06:10 .

[Cultist]

The very definition of Agressive and Diplomatic etc. is so wide that the whole dialogue could be ruined due to many variatuins of possible conversations.

[Spanishcat]

Is this that big a deal? I don't think so - icons or no icons, I've never picked a 'wrong' option, and I like the paraphrased replies. Reading the text, then hearing your character say the exact line is ridiculous.

[Cultist]

Spanishcat wrote...
Reading the text, then hearing your character say the exact line is ridiculous.

That is the most weird phrase I've met on this forums...

[TamiBx]

Rojahar wrote...

Without the icons, everybody just complains "How come my character said this in a flirting way!?" or "I thought that was a joke, not a threat!!!"

I personally don't understand how being able to see the intent of a dialog choice ( the same phrase could be sarcastic, threatening, etc... and it's good to know which it will be, exactly, before choosing ) is "dumbing down" the game or limiting choices.

Having icons and having more choices don't have to be mutually exclusive.

I agree.
 Also, DA:O system only worked because the Warden was mute. Now that the PC is voiced, writing "I like your shoes" and hearing the PC say "I like your shoes" is so dumb. 

But if you don't lie the dialogue wheel...what do you suggest instead then? 

[Cultist]

TamiBx wrote...
But if you don't lie the dialogue wheel...what do you suggest instead then?

Isn't it obvious - DA:O system of list of full  dialogue options instead of herpderping.

Modifié par Cultist, 19 août 2012 - 09:48 .